Optimal unit size for Grave Guard

[ogmaadn]

Hi all,

I know some changes will happen for most of Death units with the upcoming new battletome, but judging by the recent leaked warscrolls, either they are fake or not, Grave Guard most likely remain pretty much the same (with maybe some minor buffs).

So, considering that, what do you think the optimal unit size for a Grave Guard unit  on a 2k point list seems to be right now? For 2k battles I'm using a unit of 15-20 with great blades and no shields, sometimes  it feels that this is too many points for a rather squishy unit so maybe cutting numbers down to 10 and investings those remaining points on something else would be more worthy. But some other times I think if increasing the unit size to 30 could make it more effective and difficult to deal with for the enemy even if from a points investment perspective that might seem too much.

[Undeadly]

Honestly, if the leaked warscrolls pan out, the choice between GG and Skeletons might actually be more in favor of GG. Right now, Spear Skeletons will always out perform GG. It is as simple as that. Skeletons have more attacks, more regeneration, and are cheaper. Meanwhile, like you said GG will routinely get sniped or shot, and than die because they only have d3 regeneration.

With the supposed new system, however, you can return multiple models back to your unit. With only one invocation, you already get the same amount you already get, so woth 2 or 3 invocations, you can get a fairly decent amount back. 

If the leaks are true, Grave Guard with Swords and Shields at max unit sizes may actually be a bit more viable. Considering it'd only take two or three invocations to bring back a decent chunk of them, the fact that they are a bit tougher than Skeletons, and most of all, they are fire magnets; Any turn where something important is not being shot at is great.

[Sception]

Grave guard are too expensive ans too fragile to be worth taking as fire magnets.  As for regeneration, that depends entirely on your opponents.  If your opponents run armies proficient at quickly sniping heroes, then the grave guard will effectively have no regeneration.  Many armies can't really do that, though, so in a casual or club swing it just depends on what is popular.

In the end, skeletons, with more than twice as many wounds per point, and battleline, are almost certainly the better investment for fragile, somewhat killy infantry.

Not that grave guard are garbage tier or anything.  But you take them because they look cool, not for minmax optimization reasons.

[ogmaadn]

14 hours ago, Sception said:

Grave guard are too expensive ans too fragile to be worth taking as fire magnets.  As for regeneration, that depends entirely on your opponents.  If your opponents run armies proficient at quickly sniping heroes, then the grave guard will effectively have no regeneration.  Many armies can't really do that, though, so in a casual or club swing it just depends on what is popular.

In the end, skeletons, with more than twice as many wounds per point, and battleline, are almost certainly the better investment for fragile, somewhat killy infantry.

Not that grave guard are garbage tier or anything.  But you take them because they look cool, not for minmax optimization reasons.

I'm bringing this up again following the first look at the new Battletome: given the new grave mechanics to summon units as well as some new possibilities to heal the units through DI aside from heroes (graves, allegiance abilities), what do you think now about Grave Guard? They hit like hell, and now they can be summoned on graves as well as returning lot of models every turn, not to mention they count as battleline under the Host of Nagash allegiance.

So don't you expect to see 1 big unit of 20-30 models on most of the games? Maybe they could even become competitive enough not just being summoned on graves but instead walking towards the enemy and returning models while the enemy shooting focuses at them.

Could you even think about GG becoming the core unit for some armies and replacing these big standard units of 40 skeletons with spears?

Still not sure if GG might be viable outside being summoned on graves though, but we will see...

[TheKingInYellow]

Also how should we be equipping them?

I have 40 to build and I'm thinking 20 of each option.  Both seem to have their advantages.

[Sception]

Grave guard do certainly look better after the summoning preview, but I think it's still too soon to say they'll actually be good.  Yes they potentially have more regeneration now, but if your opponent can snipe your heroes, that cuts down to around the same as they currently have.  More significant for grave guard, once the opponent does start targeting them, their extremely poor durability for their price on an individual model basis can send you straight from 20 to zero in no time flat, and for, point for point, significantly less investment on your opponent's part than you put into fielding them.  Obviously this is subject to change depending on points costs, but a lot will depend on how well the gravesite deployment options work for them, what other movement/deployment tricks we might have, whether our heroes are tough enough to force the opponent to choose between taking them or the grave guard out before they hit melee, etc etc.

They may see a major resurgence, or they may hash out to pretty much exactly where they are now.  I'm certainly more hopeful for their prospects than I have been at any point before now in AoS's run.

Though I really do wish their shields were better, so there were less of an obvious right & wrong choice when it comes to which to field.  Especially as I like the look of the sword & board wights better.

[ogmaadn]

Yes, point value is gonna be a crucial factor to decide whether or not they can become truly useful and playable.

Either way, I still think GG with greatswords are worthier than shields. And 20 would probably be the better choice for unit size (unless a major decrease in point cost make it possible to go up to 30 GG).

[Sception]

The greatswords are obviously better than shields.  Like, it isn't even close to a comparison.  The standard death shields are garbage.  I wish GW had looked at that while updating our scrolls.  Sadly not this time around, it seems.

[ogmaadn]

Now that every legion has been previewed as well as the new mechanics, it seems clear that Hosts of Nagash and Legion of Night seem the best places for Grave Guard for different reasons. Which one do you think will create better sinergies with GG?

On one hand, they count as battleline under the HoN which is not probably a big deal, but the Legions Innumerable and other protecting stuff for Deathrattle units look promising for them so that they can become really competitive and resilient (considering they should always be played with great weapons and no shield).

But what we have seen today about the Legion of Night brings new possibilites since you can either give them more protection with The Bait or summon them close to the enemy with Ageless Cunning, so these 2 options are removing some of their weaknesses and lack of survability.

Honestly I can´t decide which one is a best place for GG, but what seems clear to me is that new rules have made them quite more dangerous and viable to play (so are Black Knights so hopefully more variety on Death armies in the end).

[Sception]

Eith what we've seen?  I still think they won't see competitive tables.  Too fragile for the points, can't regen models if the units already dead.  Maybe in manny's list w/ the save buff, but that's better on cheaper skeletons.

[ogmaadn]

And what about a point decrease? Is that still likely to happen?

[Mikeymajq]

14 minutes ago, ogmaadn said:

And what about a point decrease? Is that still likely to happen?

I hope they drop maybe a few pts? Them being twice the pts of skeleton warriors was really their achilles heel to me. But now that you can regen more of them and get them all sorts of buffs it's hard to say if a pts decrease would make them too good.  Edit: compared to skeleton warriors I mean. If they would become too cheap they would simply be better skellies.