'Competitive' Ironjawz

[tolstedt]

I attempted the weirdfist battalion against a death army in a 1.5k and enjoyed it.  Almost sniped the enemy general off on turn one with a massive arcane bolt, forcing the general to stay back. The tactic of the weirdfist is to move the weirdnob into range with the D6 destruction move in the hero phase, shoot a spell, then run him away to safety in the move phase.

I would not cast foot of gork.  Green puke could spit out 12-15 MW easily if your opponent is careless in their placement of their units.

Sacrificing the Ironfist I found no mobility problems in a 1.5k game.  I was able to pressure objectives and create a wall with the ardboys while getting consistently 4-5 dice boost on the weirdnob's spells from the weirdfist for the first 4 turns, until the units became too spread out.  Turn 5 I was still getting 2 dice boost which is excellent.  

The main idea was utilizing the brutes and the weirdnob for what in chess is called "the threat is greater than the execution".  This means that the potential harm of the units has a stronger effect on the position than the actual change a unit could do to the position.  Sigmar, for me, (which may be simply a personal style, something that speaks volumes to the how dynamic the game is and how many different ways it can be approached) is all about controlling space and making forcing moves i.e. corralling.  Using the potentials of your units to get the opponent to move their units to places that are less good for them and more good for yourself.  Force them to avoid the brutes, and in doing so make sure they get two heroes lined up for a green puke.  If you do not have a unit of 15 brutes that you get doing what you want every turn, you have to be kunnin to win with Ironjawz.

There is another kunnin idea I had.  This was to keep a warchanter with a talisman of protection next to the weirdnob.  This idea is for the warchanter to eat the D3 MW when you inevitably roll doubles on a cast.  But this seems like you are giving up three things:  ideal warchanter placement, thus the +1 to hit buff, an entire artifact, thus losing a battle brew, and 80 points.  So I'm not sure if that's a good trade.  Battle brew on a megaboss seems a better option.

[N_Watson]

5 hours ago, Drillz said:

Has anyone had any luck against the stormcast skyborne slayers lists because it just seems to have so many mortal wound and they are build to give a good brawl

When you know you won't get the alpha strike, you can try to deny favourable charges. One think I do is screen brutes with ardboys. Space the ardboys out one inch apart and place your brutes 3inches back from the front of the ardboys base. If he calls down his stuff and your spread out right, he won't have space to get everything in behind you and will be forced to drop in front. If he charges your ardboys, you get to pile in safely with the brutes in the gaps. 

@Chris Tomlin has mentioned it here that ardboys with all Shields are probably best. Some extra protection from mortal wound.   

[Malakithe]

4 hours ago, tolstedt said:

I attempted the weirdfist battalion against a death army in a 1.5k and enjoyed it.  Almost sniped the enemy general off on turn one with a massive arcane bolt, forcing the general to stay back. The tactic of the weirdfist is to move the weirdnob into range with the D6 destruction move in the hero phase, shoot a spell, then run him away to safety in the move phase.

I would not cast foot of gork.  Green puke could spit out 12-15 MW easily if your opponent is careless in their placement of their units.

Sacrificing the Ironfist I found no mobility problems in a 1.5k game.  I was able to pressure objectives and create a wall with the ardboys while getting consistently 4-5 dice boost on the weirdnob's spells from the weirdfist for the first 4 turns, until the units became too spread out.  Turn 5 I was still getting 2 dice boost which is excellent.  

The main idea was utilizing the brutes and the weirdnob for what in chess is called "the threat is greater than the execution".  This means that the potential harm of the units has a stronger effect on the position than the actual change a unit could do to the position.  Sigmar, for me, (which may be simply a personal style, something that speaks volumes to the how dynamic the game is and how many different ways it can be approached) is all about controlling space and making forcing moves i.e. corralling.  Using the potentials of your units to get the opponent to move their units to places that are less good for them and more good for yourself.  Force them to avoid the brutes, and in doing so make sure they get two heroes lined up for a green puke.  If you do not have a unit of 15 brutes that you get doing what you want every turn, you have to be kunnin to win with Ironjawz.

There is another kunnin idea I had.  This was to keep a warchanter with a talisman of protection next to the weirdnob.  This idea is for the warchanter to eat the D3 MW when you inevitably roll doubles on a cast.  But this seems like you are giving up three things:  ideal warchanter placement, thus the +1 to hit buff, an entire artifact, thus losing a battle brew, and 80 points.  So I'm not sure if that's a good trade.  Battle brew on a megaboss seems a better option.

This gives me hope and feeds what I've been saying about the weirdfist. I drafted a 2k Ironfist+weirdfist. Best of both worlds at 2k. 

Does the range work like I think? Say I have 4 units. Is that 24" minimum on the spells? 

[Nocturnic]

The problem I have is that kurnoth Hunters have a 30" range.. and he has 3 units of 3!

[tolstedt]

6 hours ago, Malakithe said:

This gives me hope and feeds what I've been saying about the weirdfist. I drafted a 2k Ironfist+weirdfist. Best of both worlds at 2k. 

Does the range work like I think? Say I have 4 units. Is that 24" minimum on the spells? 

The range does not work like you think, it has a bit of randomness.

You pick an aracne bolt, green puke, or foot of gork (do not ever cast this) spell then attempt to cast it.  If successful, you roll a dice for each unit from the batallion that is within 10" of the shaman.  For this roll you will roll a minimum of one dice (from the shaman himself) and a maximum of six (assuming you took 5 units for the batallion).

These dice will either expand the range (1-3) or they will add mortal wounds (4-6).  Ideally you will roll half and half.   But don't rely heavily on rolling extra range dice or you might just be wasting a cast!  Make sure at least some enemy chaff is within 18" so that you can just direct the bolt at them if you don't happen to roll any extra range to snipe what you were going for.

And don't forget that the range of green puke itself is random as well.

In my game on turn one I got a wonderful cast with 2 range extensions (for 12") and four extra MW on an arcane bolt.  Hit his general from 30' away for 8 MW.  Which of course he saved half of with the deathless minions.  

But my idea is that potential is scarier than execution.  Force the general to stay back in fear of a big spell and that's already a small advantage.  Influencing the opponents possibilities is how you gain ground in this game.  Exploit enough of these small imbalances kunninly and you are in a position to punch them with brutality and secure the game.

With a bad roll you could do 6 extra mortal wounds but end up not hitting anything!  At one point in my game I rolled five dice for the weirdfist and got four 6's and a single 1 to launch a green puke in an attempt to hit a unit of skellies and two heroes.  The range roll for the green puke was terrible and I ended up hitting only the skellies and the first hero!  Did 7 and 5 wounds to them respectively, but it would have deleted the other hero had I just gotten a single range extender instead of all those damn sixes.  

I might even try 2 weirdfist if I play 2.5k points.

[tolstedt]

The idea for playing the weirdfist came after my first game against my friend's death army.  I was convinced that the weirdnob was awful and overcosted and a waste of points. 

I think that any time you have this reaction to a unit, your next game should be trying to make your army revolve entirely around that unit to see what it is actually capable of before you judge it.

[Malakithe]

8 hours ago, tolstedt said:

The idea for playing the weirdfist came after my first game against my friend's death army.  I was convinced that the weirdnob was awful and overcosted and a waste of points. 

I think that any time you have this reaction to a unit, your next game should be trying to make your army revolve entirely around that unit to see what it is actually capable of before you judge it.

That's what most people think. I've always seen the value in him but there hasn't been much public testing. Everyone defaults to the ironfist or a variation of it.

I'm fairly sure it works like I think it does because of the wording. It says 'add 6" for each 1,2,3, AND add 1 MW on a 4,5,6' 

To me the AND implies you add the results. If it wasn't like that it would say something like 'add range on 1,2,3, OR 1 MW on a 4,5,6' 

Might have to email GW about that.

I like your planning for it thou. I think for 2k games a Ironfist+Weirdfist could be devastating. Do the normal sprint up with brutes(or offensive ardboys to block movement), and megaboss, and warchanter. Then move up with the weirdfist. The weirdnob bubble wrapped with 4 units of ardboys will branch out to take objectives and snipe stuff...in theory. 

[tolstedt]

Yes it is 6" for each 1,2,3 and an additional MW for each 4,5,6.  We must be confusing one another.

[tolstedt]

I see what you are saying now. You believe that you get range on a 4,5,6 as well as a MW? That would be amazing if that's how it works. I'll read the scroll again when I get home. 

You could pump out huge damage with green puke.

 

Edit: I am inclined to think that your interpretation is wrong though. If every unit simply boosted range regardless of the roll it would be worded quite differently. 

[Malakithe]

I've been asking about it on FB groups and other places and all are saying it's both so far

[tolstedt]

With this interpretation you can  green puke first turn for minimum 38 inches for 1-9 MW for each unit that the puke hits. The max would be 48".

Or you have a 54" arcane bolt that can deal 9 wounds. 

I'm just not sure that this is the intent of the battalion.

The scroll reads:

"Add 6" to the spell's range for each of these dice that rolls 1, 2, or 3, and add 1 to the mortal wounds inflicted by the spell for each 4, 5, or 6."

To me it is clearly breaking the rolls into two different effects by isolating using the word "each". It is saying that you get range for the 1,2,3 and MW for the 4,5,6.

The word "and" means you get range and mortal wounds. I'm just not seeing this wording getting you range for 4,5,6.

 

[Malakithe]

I'm seeing the 'and' as both. If it was meant to be one or another other would say 'or add 1 MW on..' 

It makes sense since the shaman costs just under the megaboss and the battalion costs a lot too.

[tolstedt]

Right, it means both.  

You get the range extenders from ones, twos, and threes.  
You also get mortal wounds from fours, fives, and sixes.  

It is two different effects.  You get both effects.  You get these at the same time.  That's the "and".

What you do not get is range extenders on fours, fives, and sixes.  
I'm really having trouble figuring out how this wording would get us to having range extenders on rolls of 1,2,3,4,5, and 6.

[Malakithe]

I just really see it as a stacking thing. Roll.a 1,2,3...you get range. But roll 4,5,6 you get range+MW..to me that's the AND working. If it was either or it would say OR. Every other warscroll says OR when describing things like this

[Lord Biscuit]

Yes, you get range on a 123 and damage on a 4,5,6, you roll one of these dice for each weird fist you have in range.

 

1,2,3 doesn't add damage.

4,5,6 doesn't add range.

 

You benefit from one or the other on each die roll, but you tablulate the results to make the final figure.

 

If I had 5 units in range, rolled, for simpisty 2 1's and 3 6's on an arcane bolt. I would add 12 inches of range and 3 mortal wounds ontop of what I get. I don't gain 30 range and 5 extra mortal wounds nor are you forced to chose between gaining 12 inches of range or 3 extra mortal wounds.

 

The intent behind the weirdfist power is really quite clear. You benefit from both results, but only when you calculated what those two results are. I would expect to get that much out of a formation that only one model benifts from.

[scrubyandwells]

Hi guys, as an experiment, I'm looking for players to provide feedback on the Ironjawz's GH points values. The goal is to gather feedback on what players think the points values should be, aggregate the results and see what the mean is for each Ironjawz unit and battalion, and then share those results for broader feedback. I'd like to test whether a crowdsourcing approach can provide a good-quality outcome, where the quality of the outcome is judged by both the participants and a broader group. 

If you're interested, please send a PM here or on Twitter. Thanks! 

[N_Watson]

Oooo looking forward to seeing what is thought on this. Pretty sure that most will agree the megaboss on Mawcrusher is too high a points cost. I would say it should be 460 at the most. Maybe a little lower. 

Think that gore gruntas should be a little cheaper as well. Maybe 160? 

I think the Wierdnob is a bit expensive but foot of gork can in theory do a lot of damage so he probably shouldn't be much cheaper. I actually would be happier if he was 140-160 and could cast 2 spells a turn.

Everything else I think is pretty much ok. 

Just my $0.02

Looking forward to hearing others thoughts on the points. 

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, N_Watson said:

I think the Wierdnob is a bit expensive but foot of gork can in theory do a lot of damage so he probably shouldn't be much cheaper. I actually would be happier if he was 140-160 and could cast 2 spells a turn.

Yep. I'm waiting to see if Ironjawz even gets a spell lore. And if so only one spell casts would be terrible. 

[Dez]

Moonclan Shamans can dump out loads of damage too and they are only 60 points and don't kill their own units.

If he was given an extra spell and armor like the rest of the Ironjawz I'd have no problem with 120. He is way too random to be used competitively. I'd price him as a Warchanter at 80 points.

[N_Watson]

3 minutes ago, Dez said:

Moonclan Shamans can dump out loads of damage too and they are only 60 points and don't kill their own units.

If he was given an extra spell and armor like the rest of the Ironjawz I'd have no problem with 120. He is way too random to be used competitively. I'd price him as a Warchanter at 80 points.

As random as it is, I have dished out 32 mortal wounds with a foot of gork not using the formation. Seen someone at the store I play at do more. 

Grot shaman has 4 wounds and to get his plus 2 to cast he risks not being able to do anything. So a 1 in 6 chance either way of dealing mortal wounds or doing nothing for the rest of turn. 

Not saying the Wierdnob is amazing, but for 80 points he would be too good. 

People would run multiple just to try foot of gork each round because why not? 1 in 6 chance of dealing wounds to myself but potential to decimate my enemy each turn for 80 points.. lol. Does sound fun though now that I think about it. 

[Dez]

I see your point and raise to 100, but he's got to take out the trash on Thursdays!

[Chris Tomlin]

On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 9:49 AM, Lord Biscuit said:

1,2,3 doesn't add damage.

4,5,6 doesn't add range.

This.

It would be worded very differently if you always got to add range.

I am keen to try to this out at some point, it seems so fragile to me...will need to buy another Weirdnob though as I cut mine in half for my Rogue Idol conversion!!  

[Lord Biscuit]

23 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

This.

It would be worded very differently if you always got to add range.

I am keen to try to this out at some point, it seems so fragile to me...will need to buy another Weirdnob though as I cut mine in half for my Rogue Idol conversion!!  

Aye thats just it really, weird fist really brings out both the best and the worst in the weirdman sharman. The best in that he's a godly mortal wounds multiplier, the worst in that the list puts a fat 220 points on a model with a +5 or worse save. While Ironjawz are well positioned to take advantage of his firepower ranged fire by their sheer melee murderness, the sharman needs to be mindful of shooting.

 

All in all he's a wall breaker, just not entirely sure weirdfist is worth the price of a whole new shaman against some lists.

[Gorsk]

Do the ironjaws have an answer to Khorne wrathmongers?  I am thinking about how to mitigate the wrathmonger's on death ability that forces the killing unit to attach itself or an adjacent unit.   

[N_Watson]

6 minutes ago, Gorsk said:

Do the ironjaws have an answer to Khorne wrathmongers?  I am thinking about how to mitigate the wrathmonger's on death ability that forces the killing unit to attach itself or an adjacent unit.   

Hmm that's a hard one. You probably don't want to feed them brutes. Probably give the ardboys with shields and maybe just hold them for a while, and whittle them down.