polarbear Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 I've posted this a few times before but I'm down with a total retcon of the alliances. For AoS trying to go so unique with its factions, the four alliances are about as generic as you can get, and the armies in them don't make a ton of sense. I like the ability to play with alliances in terms of army building, but from a lore and fluff perspective I don't like the split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted September 22, 2017 Author Share Posted September 22, 2017 What would you suggest instead then? I guess GW choose this variant because it's easy and fast, and you can remember they started to go this road in the 8th at least (Order, Destruction and neutral factions). And I'd say the idea is not that bad but trying to produce so many factions and then organize them only in four alliances... well, it's not easy for certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Veshnakar Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 I would implore you to read a little more into the Fyreslayer background. IMHO having played and being obsessed with Fyreslayers from release, and reading every smidgen of lore available since AOS dropped, Destruction is not a suitable fit for Fyreslayers. While it is noted that there are some more wild and savage lodges in Ghur or Ulgu, Fyreslayers are always still in direct opposition to Chaos. The vast majority of them have spend literal millennia fighting off chaos in Aqshy. The hatred is ingrained at this point. The only exception falls when Ur-Gold is involved, because they view it as part of their lost god, and will do anything they can to wretch it from less worthy hands. The armies of Destruction center around violence for the sake of violence and they revere Gorkamorka. They have the penultimate goal of destruction and a good fight. Fyreslayers fight to survive. Their ultimate goal is the rebirth of Grimnir and to stave off those who would threaten their homes, but ultimately they vehemently oppose chaos, as Grimnir did. That is to say though, you could definitely theme an army around a more feral lodge from Ghur and that could be amazing, but in my opinion it would never be right seeing Duardin shoulder to shoulder alongside the followers of Gorkamorka. In the newest background they ally frequently with Kharadron Overlords and Stormcast. Order is a good fit for them. They are very headstrong Lawful Neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galas Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 I miss my mercenary ogres To say that every individual of a Alliance serve their god is a bit of a strenthc. I'm pretty sure that every ogre and greenskin has Gorkamorka has their patron, but I seriously doubt that they have any kind of personal contact with him. As long as they are fighting, I don't think their God could bother. Plus, Gorkamorka was best friend with Sigmar for some time until he did get bored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellalugosi Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 i mean, it doesnt matter when youre playing anything other than matched play. in narrative and open, you can play them however you want, especially in multiplayer! in terms of lore however, just because a faction can fight alongside another, does not have to mean they are the same grand alliance. mannfred allied himself with the stormcast in the hunt for nagash. this does not mean that he should be grand alliance order. his allegiance is prioritized to nagash. nagash IS grand alliance death. the fyreslayers owe their worship to grimnir. grimnir is sworn to sigmar. sigmar IS grand alliance order. the fyreslayers will fight for order in the end because chaos, death, and destruction will not aide their cause, nor respect it. they would just as likely to burn down their holds as they are to promise them urgold. the forces of order want civilization and culture to survive, free to worship their gods as they please, free from the corruption of chaos. if anything, the most likely to be out of alliance is the free people. many of them worship nagash in shyish, it has not become taboo to do so yet. well see in mortal portens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galas Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Free Peoples by definition are just all kind of humans organized in some kind of society that isn't Chaos. So I'll expect to have humans worshiping both Gorkamorka and Nagash in many realms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted September 22, 2017 Author Share Posted September 22, 2017 35 minutes ago, Lord Veshnakar said: That is to say though, you could definitely theme an army around a more feral lodge from Ghur and that could be amazing, but in my opinion it would never be right seeing Duardin shoulder to shoulder alongside the followers of Gorkamorka. Their tome, by no means invalidated. Although I see your point and get your arguments. 7 minutes ago, hellalugosi said: in terms of lore however, just because a faction can fight alongside another, does not have to mean they are the same grand alliance. mannfred allied himself with the stormcast in the hunt for nagash. this does not mean that he should be grand alliance order. his allegiance is prioritized to nagash. nagash IS grand alliance death. the fyreslayers owe their worship to grimnir. grimnir is sworn to sigmar. sigmar IS grand alliance order. I know this and see you point, just I think the slayers do look a bit odd in Order (even more than the darkling covens or shadowblades). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Veshnakar Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 I think it's also worth noting, I see it a lot that people assume that Order= Good. I think this is a pretty big misconception. Lawful Evil could and does fully exist within Order in its current format. I find people bring up the whole "this faction should not be order, it should be _____" because they think Order means "the good guys". But we have already seen examples of the Stormcast having very "inquisition" like behavior is AOS too, or factions like Sylvaneth being very self focused and hesistant to help others, or factions like Daughters of Khaine or Darkling Covens who perform Blood rites and Sacrifice. The best description of Order that I could give is that every order faction are survivalists doing what they can to survive Death, Chaos, and Destruction and for the most part are bent on self-preservation. Opposition to Chaos also plays big part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted September 22, 2017 Author Share Posted September 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, Lord Veshnakar said: I find people bring up the whole "this faction should not be order, it should be _____" because they think Order means "the good guys". I didn't say they are good guys, nor do I judge the slayers by this. And, by the way, about good guys - Sigmar positions himself as noble and righteous good of light and all that is good, which is written in many books, but I personally would not want to follow such a god as I find him rather bad and unappealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galas Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Order isn't good, ask an anarquist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alezzika Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 I guess they are kinda ordered destruction I think having Fyreslayers be either Destruction or Order would have been really cool! It would also have thrown a bone to Chaos Dwarf players. Do we really need 3 Order Dwarf armies? And this is coming from a Dwarf player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Alezzika said: I guess they are kinda ordered destruction I think having Fyreslayers be either Destruction or Order would have been really cool! It would also have thrown a bone to Chaos Dwarf players. Do we really need 3 Order Dwarf armies? And this is coming from a Dwarf player. You've touched on an interesting point there, which is that there may also be a general assumption that all members of a given race should sit entirely within a single Grand Alliance. The only race I can think of that straddles multiple Alliances at the moment is humans (Order, Chaos). But if the GW designers can break people out of that rigid mindset it could be a lot more fun. Not only could we get some version of things like chaos dwarfs in Chaos and mercenary ogors in Order, but we could see some really unusual stuff like grot necromancers in Death and barbarian human beastmasters in Destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted September 23, 2017 Author Share Posted September 23, 2017 Who knows, maybe it's possible in the future, for idea is very cool indeed, and seeing how big Order is at the moment I'd say other alliances lack reinforcements a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galas Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 Many races have remained in the Realms during the Age of Chaos. They did what they needed to survive. Thats why you have humans adoring Chaos, why you have humans adoring Nagash in Hysh, and I'm pretty sure that you could encounter ogers, greenskins, humans, elfs and dwarfs that are part of other "Alliances", but not because is a deliverate choice , but because they needed it to survive. I doubt that in the town of BrownFoot in the Realm of Beasts, known for being tarzan-like humans, they did gathered thousands of years ago to discuss about their loyalty to Sigmar. "You know guys, Sigmar is all good and that, but he is in his realm, and we are left here in the middle of a giant Chaos Invasion to our realm. I think that Gorkamorka offers us a better value for our money". The change was just natural, like our cultures change throug history. The Realms are too big to end in the Old World "Things are this way, and no other way!" this fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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