bases Modelling bases

[Knight_Death]

Hi there guys, quick question (although it might not be a quick answer) i'll try my best to explain what i mean.

I had a game with my nephew earlier today Sylvaneth v Flesh Eater, and a situation came up, he had a unit of kurnoth hunters behind a Treelord, and shot at a unit of ghoul horrors, and now this is the issue, drawing LoS base to base from the kurnoth hunters to my crypt horrors crossed the base of the treelord, but how the 'picking a target' says if a target is visible you can shoot it, I agreed, 2 of the kurnoth hunters could see between the legs of the Treelord and shoot my crypt horrors, now this should have been the end of it.

However it got me thinking, 'what if he had based his treelord with lots of tall bushes and small trees to make him look like he was striding through a forest, so that the whole base was full of foliage', the kurnoth hunters LoS would have been blocked by said foliage on the treelords base and therefore not shoot at my crpyt horrors, then this got me thinking that j can use this tactic to keep my heroes safe. I.E, my other army is Nighthaunts, what if all my Spirit Hosts and Hexwraiths are based with loads of cotton wool, to imitate swamp mist, so as to block any LoS past them and when i deploy them put them base to base and hide my heroes behind them during the first few turns keeping them immune to any shooting or arcane bolts. Now in this army it probably wont be a big deal, but battlesmiths in fireslayers ( basing troops on tall rocks and the battlesmith on a smaller base ), blood secrator in a khorne bloodbound ( same kind of bases ) would keep them heroes totally safe from any ranged attack, allowing them to buff the units all game.

I just want to know if this is considered 'too gamey' or just plain cheating. 

How would a tournament organiser see this situation.

Im sorry if this has been brought up before, i did a search and found nothing, but i think its a valid point and would like to see what the community thought.

[Varred]

Well, while I don't know if such a thing is or isn't allowed by the rules, I know something about that:

Pulling that off to look good is very hard.

Pulling that off, even if done superb, is a ****** move.

 

If I was an organizer or a ref, I would definetly rule in favor of the person opposite of those bases. Even to an exent of considering said model on a big base as if it wasn't there at all. Such things were considered modelling for advantage (at least in many other games before) and were punished quite harshly.

In fact modelling for advantage was the reason behind True Line of Sight going away from most games I ever played.

Cheers

Varred

[BaldoBeardo]

You answered your own question, sort of.

If you're using bases for measurement purposes, then bases are bases - if it crosses the base, it's blocked by a model.

If you're using the 'pure' AoS rules, then you ignore bases as a 'thing' and instead use the cinematic LOS system. In which case, base decorations would also block LOS if it had to pass through them.

As for 'modelling for advantage'... That's what is known in the legal profession as 'provocation'. 

[yarrickson]

Gamey as a pheasant that's been hung for a month. 

Not a TO myself but confident a competent TO would dock points/have a word as their rules/style allowed if the base decoration was clearly modelled for advantage. 

[Siorra]

From my understanding line of site is ignored for models anyway. Yes, the Kurnoth may technicallly not be able to see through the models leg, but this is presuming the character the model represents is completely still, which it wouldn't be. I mean, wouldn't the Kurnoth just say "excuse me" to the Treelord to fire their arrows? It's the same for bubble-wrapped units, you can still shoot them, just not drop into melee. And as for deceorative bases, they should be completely ignored. They don't represent the game board, they're just there to represent the terrain you envision your model in.

 

So in short, ignore other models completely for line of site, especially their bases. And as always, if you can't decide with your opponent, roll a dice and see who chooses the rule, or maybe, maybe, treat it as behind cover.

[stato]

1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

You answered your own question, sort of.

If you're using bases for measurement purposes, then bases are bases - if it crosses the base, it's blocked by a model.

Hmm, ive never seen it played like that before. Measure bases but LoS is still visual, you have to have a lot of models in front to actually block LoS, to the point that ive not actually seen anyone even try and claim LoS blocking from anything but scenery.

[Aginor]

My friend and I do it this way:

We take the base sizes and build a cylinder in our minds wrapping around the model. If the model has an unusually large base (like standing on a rock) it doesn't count because we don't want to penalize for beautiful bases, nor should they be an advantage.

We also made the following rule:
A unit blocks sight for another close unit if it has the same base size, or the other one is just slightly bigger.

So a unit of skeletons blocks line of sight to a Wight King, but not to Black Knights. A Megaboss between Brutes is save from being shot, a Gore-Grunta isnt. A monster like a Carnosaur or a Maw-Krusha is never save except behind another similarly sized one. A Bastiladon is save behind a Stegadon but then it cannot shoot in that direction either.

We did that because it helps armies with squishy heroes that are important for synergies (like FEC or Deathrattle) against sniping armies.

A good example is SCE vs. Deathrattle:
A Wight King or Necromancer buffing their skeletons or practically worthless if a Knight Venator can just snipe them without anything the Death player can do to prevent it.

The way we do it the Necromancer and the Wight King can hide behind their skeletons. The Necromancer cannot cast Arcane bolt while bubble wrapped that way, but he can use danse macabre or mystic shield on his Skellies.

[Tidings]

On 9/7/2017 at 5:01 AM, Aginor said:

My friend and I do it this way:

We take the base sizes and build a cylinder in our minds wrapping around the model. If the model has an unusually large base (like standing on a rock) it doesn't count because we don't want to penalize for beautiful bases, nor should they be an advantage.

We also made the following rule:
A unit blocks sight for another close unit if it has the same base size, or the other one is just slightly bigger.

So a unit of skeletons blocks line of sight to a Wight King, but not to Black Knights. A Megaboss between Brutes is save from being shot, a Gore-Grunta isnt. A monster like a Carnosaur or a Maw-Krusha is never save except behind another similarly sized one. A Bastiladon is save behind a Stegadon but then it cannot shoot in that direction either.

We did that because it helps armies with squishy heroes that are important for synergies (like FEC or Deathrattle) against sniping armies.

A good example is SCE vs. Deathrattle:
A Wight King or Necromancer buffing their skeletons or practically worthless if a Knight Venator can just snipe them without anything the Death player can do to prevent it.

The way we do it the Necromancer and the Wight King can hide behind their skeletons. The Necromancer cannot cast Arcane bolt while bubble wrapped that way, but he can use danse macabre or mystic shield on his Skellies.

This is basically oldschool WHFB LoS rules, and I wish this was still how it's played. It's simple, faster and has less room for arguement while offering more tactics. Really find it odd that AoS, which went to great lengths to simplify, didn't do this. Sure it's easier to write the rule for "if you can see it, great!" but the gameplay is much more simple with a system like: Monsters block same size and smaller, large units (Crypt Horrors etc) block large units and smaller, cavalry blocks cavalry and smaller, etc. You just draw line of site from base to base and if something overlaps, and it's the same size or bigger, it blocks. 

It's more complex to explain, but takes like 2 seconds to learn and is better to play. 

[Cerlin]

I also wish they had this base rule and I play mostly shooting armies. I think it would be a fun change.