KO Thunderer GHB2017 Changes Information Gathering Poll

[DantePQ]

Yeah but people modeled them not because they liked it or it was fluffy but for powergaming purposes only (in majority of cases), if GW nuked them other way like double their cost and chaninng all weapon ranges to 10'' they would end of the shelf anyway.  

[stato]

41 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Yeah but people modeled them not because they liked it or it was fluffy but for powergaming purposes only (in majority of cases), if GW nuked them other way like double their cost and chaninng all weapon ranges to 10'' they would end of the shelf anyway.  

There is a difference though between making something less effective by points or rules changes and making a persons model illegal. Yes some people went overboard, but others didn't. It's not fair on people who chose to build, what is still the newest army, to just invalidate their previously legal modelling choices. By all means make them not an auto pick by rules or points, but it's sad that they chose to do it this way. 

Ive not built mine yet but I'd not have bought a few boxes if I knew I had to run mixed weapons as I don't like the look. At least stock rifles are an option and they to me look good so happy with that choice. I'm not a power gamer, I've only been in the hobby 7months and just run what I like the look of, my first army was bretonnia as I love the knights, knowing full well they might get cut out entirely as they are so old. The KO ships are my favourite so I'll still be running the two frigates I've bought. 

[Thomas Lyons]

5 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Yeah but people modeled them not because they liked it or it was fluffy but for powergaming purposes only (in majority of cases), if GW nuked them other way like double their cost and chaninng all weapon ranges to 10'' they would end of the shelf anyway.  

And if they had made all their ranges 10", I would have completely been ok with the change.  Heck, I probably would have still ran my unit occasionally.

But that isn't what they did.  They changed the unit composition making some people's recently purchased, completely legal models, illegal.  This is the problem.

Many of us KO players are upset because we've poured hours and money into building units that can no longer be physically played on the table. We have units cards we've purchased from GW that are incomplete now that they've dramatically changed the warscroll.  

[Chikout]

Sorry to be the bearer of even more bad news but the points cost are incorrect. The thunderers are going up to 140 and the khemist is staying at 100. Battalions are considerably more expensive but that is true for every faction.

[Thomas Lyons]

9 minutes ago, Chikout said:

Sorry to be the bearer of even more bad news but the points cost are incorrect. The thunderers are going up to 140 and the khemist is staying at 100. Battalions are considerably more expensive but that is true for every faction.

I suspect a misprint.  Bob reported thunderers at 100 and Khemists at 140.  The French version has thunderers at 140 and Khemists at 100 :-/

[Chikout]

9 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

I suspect a misprint.  Bob reported thunderers at 100 and Khemists at 140.  The French version has thunderers at 140 and Khemists at 100 :-/

Makes you wonder how many other misprints there are. One thing that occurred to me is that with the cannon the decksweeper and the mortar all synergising together, making them all have the same range makes a certain amount of sense. It means you only have to measure once. 

[Thomas Lyons]

Just now, Chikout said:

Makes you wonder how many other misprints there are. One thing that occurred to me is that with the cannon the decksweeper and the mortar all synergising together, making them all have the same range makes a certain amount of sense. It means you only have to measure once. 

Not true, since every shooting model needs to be within 12", you'll need to check to make sure each weapon is within range.

[Chikout]

1 minute ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Not true, since every shooting model needs to be within 12", you'll need to check to make sure each weapon is within range.

Fair enough. I usually measure from the back one first. If that is in range,  they all are. 

 

[Lord Cedric]

I have quite a bit to say on this and will, later on, address them. But immediately, my mind sees that it wouldn't make that much difference when GW could/should have posted a heads-up on possible changes. Why? Because if this was leaked 2 months ago, then this same situation would present itself, just different players.

Therefore the problem isnt a matter of when GW should have posted these changes.... but how they could have changed them differently.

Its obvious that a massive shooting meta has befallen AoS. So, its more than likely some nerf.. some change (s) would be coming. We all knew that a new Generals Handbook was coming this year. If your a competitive gamer, you check your safe to purchase options against those that would most likely have a change. List building should reflect this too.

It sucks for those players who bought several extra boxes of one unit just to build a wysiwyg.. for whatever reason. But I don't feel sorry for them. Maxing out power gaming is risky for this reason... nerfing is evident. When is unknown.

- Cedric

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Chaotic Neutral]

an excellent change.

such is the price for powergaming.

this is nothing new as they did the same thing to moonclan net spam.

[Thomas Lyons]

25 minutes ago, Chaotic Neutral said:

this is nothing new as they did the same thing to moonclan net spam.

It's different than the Moonclan situation.  Those said some can be equipped with nets.  This said all can be equipped with any combination.  Very different.

[Thomas Lyons]

1 hour ago, Chaotic Neutral said:

in essence i do not think it's different.

throwing extra cash in an attempt to purchase wins was perhaps something they thought was not in the spirit of the game.

two players with the same skill and army list have a game but one burned an extra $400 to make sure he wins?

do people play for fun or show of skill anymore, or is it only about winning?

sour gapes are sour.

I'm sorry you feel like people were trying to "purchase wins". Some of us were just trying to play the rules and build units that were aesthetically pleasing (rather than looking like a mob stumbling out of an armory).  

 

Your question demonstrates a lack of understanding the value of list building as a skill and also ignorance as to gamer psychographic profiles (i.e. what incentivizes particular gamer types and what qualifies as "fun"). The community is diverse and it's in the best interest of the health of the community to stay that way. 

[Primarch1]

2 hours ago, Lord Cedric said:

I have quite a bit to say on this and will, later on, address them. But immediately, my mind sees that it wouldn't make that much difference when GW could/should have posted a heads-up on possible changes. Why? Because if this was leaked 2 months ago, then this same situation would present itself, just different players.

Therefore the problem isnt a matter of when GW should have posted these changes.... but how they could have changed them differently.

Its obvious that a massive shooting meta has befallen AoS. So, its more than likely some nerf.. some change (s) would be coming. We all knew that a new Generals Handbook was coming this year. If your a competitive gamer, you check your safe to purchase options against those that would most likely have a change. List building should reflect this too.

It sucks for those players who bought several extra boxes of one unit just to build a wysiwyg.. for whatever reason. But I don't feel sorry for them. Maxing out power gaming is risky for this reason... nerfing is evident. When is unknown.

- Cedric

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

When the army has very little to keep it from being tabled by Stormcast, Ruk, Sylvaneth, among others...you do what you do to have fun.  Getting tabled over and over again because you want to play ships that are probably the worst point for point models in the game right now, is not fun.

 

 

[Primarch1]

On 8/19/2017 at 9:34 AM, Seraphage said:

No offense guys but I think this is silly complaint. We all knew that GH2 was coming his summer and we looked forward to it due to one thing : Changes it would bring.

 

Publishing 2 months beforehand could be said by any army since any change, alternates the play style. And since they would do that, they might as well publish the whole book.

But then, same could be said for 2 months before that date.. what I am trying to say is that things like that cannot be avoided because there is nothing to avoid from the company. It is OUR purchases before the update. OUR choice.

No offense meant, this is truly my opinion and I do believe it makes sense 

KO needed to be buffed, not nerfed.  Or at least buffed to compensate for the heavy nerf.  They did not do that, they just made the viable way to play the army unviable.

 

 

[Primarch1]

1 hour ago, Chaotic Neutral said:

an excellent change.

such is the price for powergaming.

this is nothing new as they did the same thing to moonclan net spam.

I think a lot of the folks who are pro-this update must play armies like Stormcast or Ruk and do not like other armies being a challenge?  Could be wrong, but KO are already a very underpowered army evidenced by poor showings in the big tournaments.  This makes them even worse.  I wouldn't have minded the nerf if they had lowered the ship points, or made them a viable option, they chose not to do that either.

[Chaotic Neutral]

14 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

I'm sorry you feel like people were trying to "purchase wins". Some of us were just trying to play the rules and build units that were aesthetically pleasing (rather than looking like a mob stumbling out of an armory).  

 

Your question demonstrates a lack of understanding the value of list building as a skill and also ignorance as to gamer psychographic profiles (i.e. what incentivizes particular gamer types and what qualifies as "fun"). The community is diverse and it's in the best interest of the health of the community to stay that way. 

why do YOU think games workshop made this change?

[Chaotic Neutral]

22 minutes ago, Primarch1 said:

I think a lot of the folks who are pro-this update must play armies like Stormcast or Ruk and do not like other armies being a challenge?  Could be wrong, but KO are already a very underpowered army evidenced by poor showings in the big tournaments.  This makes them even worse.  I wouldn't have minded the nerf if they had lowered the ship points, or made them a viable option, they chose not to do that either.

I think we all knew that KO were OP (or more specifically they were almost an autowin vs 50% of armies but hard countered by a minority (Stormcast)). Someone was inevitably going to get hit by the nerf bag - whether it was Mr Bought 6 Khemists or Rigger Spam or Thunderers.

[Thomas Lyons]

20 minutes ago, Chaotic Neutral said:

why do YOU think games workshop made this change?

Honestly?  I suspect it is twofold. It's the common sense change for new players to the faction so that those players get the actual bits that a unit can build with in the box itself.    This obviously isn't all of it though since similar changes haven't been implemented on Arkanaut Company, Stormfiends, or any of the other units with similar equipment situations.  

I suspect it's also to head off the hypothetical Thunderer apocalypse of Mortar or Aethercannons deathstars that will supposably dominate the tournament scene.  I say hypothetical because this has never been manifest in reality.  KO have never won a major event and there aren't even reports of any heavy thunderer lists showing up.  The irony is that if this really is their intent; they've missed the mark completely.

In fact, you can do almost the same stuff with heavy Company lists, and yet this is still fully viable.  If balance is the issue, they still haven't fixed anything with KO; power gamers are just going to stack Khemist buffs on Company's Light Skyhooks and Endrinrigger's Chainsaws.  The issue has never been mono-weapon; it  has always been an issue of stacking buffs.  In this circumstance, it has to do with Khemists; the TK nerf was about stacking bonus to wound buffs.  

Ultimately, all of these are treating symptoms of a systemic problem. Unfortunately, I've had this exact conversation with Ben Johnson in person, as well as providing a write-up for GW on the issue. Thunderers are just the most recent victim and scapegoat to the systemic problem, and until it is addressed, units will continue to fall victim to these huge nerfs into uselessness.

So, in the end, I'm sure they had "reasons", but I'm also fairly certain they were misplaced and not fully understood.  That's probably more than what you asked for,  it's my answer.

[Chaotic Neutral]

9 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Honestly?  I suspect it is twofold. It's the common sense change for new players to the faction so that those players get the actual bits that a unit can build with in the box itself.    This obviously isn't all of it though since similar changes haven't been implemented on Arkanaut Company, Stormfiends, or any of the other units with similar equipment situations.  

I suspect it's also to head off the hypothetical Thunderer apocalypse of Mortar or Aethercannons deathstars that will supposably dominate the tournament scene.  I say hypothetical because this has never been manifest in reality.  KO have never won a major event and there aren't even reports of any heavy thunderer lists showing up.  The irony is that if this really is their intent; they've missed the mark completely.

In fact, you can do almost the same stuff with heavy Company lists, and yet this is still fully viable.  If balance is the issue, they still haven't fixed anything with KO; power gamers are just going to stack Khemist buffs on Company's Light Skyhooks and Endrinrigger's Chainsaws.  The issue has never been mono-weapon; it  has always been an issue of stacking buffs.  In this circumstance, it has to do with Khemists; the TK nerf was about stacking bonus to wound buffs.  

Ultimately, all of these are treating symptoms of a systemic problem. Unfortunately, I've had this exact conversation with Ben Johnson in person, as well as providing a write-up for GW on the issue. Thunderers are just the most recent victim and scapegoat to the systemic problem, and until it is addressed, units will continue to fall victim to these huge nerfs into uselessness.

So, in the end, I'm sure they had "reasons", but I'm also fairly certain they were misplaced and not fully understood.  That's probably more than what you asked for,  it's my answer.

fair enough sir.

i have been playing this game since 4th edition, and meant no personal insult to you.

it is just in my opinion there is only one reason to build that particular unit in such a way, and its not for fluff reasons.

im not saying the reason is wrong, but it's just not "right" in my book (and GW's).

 

[Paul Buckler]

So Its been a day since this dropped, been busy so given me a chance to think it over.  I think I have played enough games, nearly 60 now, to give a reasoned answer to the changes.

 

There are 2 avenues. 

From gaming perspective the change makes Zero sense, it reduces a unit that was not seen in most top builds anyways, to a unit you will rarely see taken.  Yes mortar units were good, but the fix lay with the Khemist scroll not the Thunderers.  A simple line on the Khemist scroll preventing buff stacking was all that was needed to fix it, (and balloon spam as well).

From a 'Whats in the box' perspective - Yes you can only build 1 of each, so that should be the option.  Totally agree, no argument thats fine.

If GW give the second reason in GH2 (Havent had chance to see if they do), then fair play.  But it also should mean lots of further changes down the road. Arkanaughts with only 1 of each weapon, Skaven Stormfiends, Tzeetch Tzangor Greatblades etc.

 

Repercussions are big as well.  Its dented my trust in GW when they make a new release.  I bought Ref cards that are now defunct (after less than 6 months.  If GW hold tehir hands up and say yeah sorry we got it wrong, we meant teh scroll to be as the options in the kit, it would 100% help.  Hopefully thing slike this will not get missed in the future.

How does it affect my list? - Actually makes it better, but less fun to play.  I up my 2 units of 10 Arkanaughts to 20 and get another 12 skyhook shots (probably a better option, but I was trying to build an all round list using more units, to stay away from over spamming).

Pushing more diversity away from mono builds was what I thought was the way forwards, this one is a step backwards imo, just makes me a little sad that no one in GW can spot this.

 

Addressing the posts citing being a power gamer, and this being your reward.  Sadly you have not worked out that the power list for KO is not a Thunderer based one, and these changes do not address that problem,(which I would have def addressed if I were GW)

 

 

[Nico]

Good points Paul. It feels like this was a change in response to the initial reaction to KO - that Khemist stack on Thunderers was potentially insane, rather than to the relatively new Clown Car without Thunderers meta. I've not done pure Clown Car in my lists and am surprised that putting 10 Cannons in the Ironclad wouldn't be efficient (e.g. cutting down the unit of Wardens) - granted it would be slower on the table.

[Chaotic Neutral]

13 minutes ago, Nico said:

Clown Car

i love this term sir.

[Thomas Lyons]

55 minutes ago, Nico said:

Good points Paul. It feels like this was a change in response to the initial reaction to KO - that Khemist stack on Thunderers was potentially insane, rather than to the relatively new Clown Car without Thunderers meta. I've not done pure Clown Car in my lists and am surprised that putting 10 Cannons in the Ironclad wouldn't be efficient (e.g. cutting down the unit of Wardens) - granted it would be slower on the table.

Bold/emphases added by me.  This.  This is exactly my point.  People reacted without proper testing and experience.  The reality is that 10 Cannons would get 1 round of shooting, possibly 2 (if the KO player doubled turned and there were more enemies still within range) before they would get wiped off the table.  They were extremely fragile with no actually means of self defense if something go into them.  Once they were dropped onto the table, their low mobility coupled with short range made it easy to keep them out of the fights where they would be actually needed after their initial volley.  The problem with these Thunderer units is that they were a powerful yet limited tool.  

Now Thunderers aren't even functional for their points and KO have been restricted to having only 3 playable units and 3 overpriced ships that are of limited functionality as well.  This is obviously compounded by the fact that they only have one battleline option and 3 of their 4 heroes are now 140 points and the other one is pretty worthless.  This move has shifted KO back towards basically spamming a single attack or two to even have a shot at being competitive. You'll see one or two builds of KO crop up in the competitive scene and that'll be it.  The emerging meta will be dominated by masses of bodies, and KO will likely struggle to compete, as they'll simply be overwhelmed.  Armies that can't deal with 90-120+ Bloodletters are going to struggle to perform on top tables, and KO simply don't have an answer to those kinds of forces.    

[TheNotebookGM]

1 hour ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Armies that can't deal with 90-120+ Bloodletters are going to struggle to perform on top tables, and KO simply don't have an answer to those kinds of forces.    

I'm glad this happened when it did since I've been gearing up to get some KO units, I'm a newbie so GW probably doesn't care about my feelings but from where I'm sitting in the "obsessively build lists and run solo games with proxies before I give GW all my money" stage of things nerfing the range on mortars makes the all-infantry-and-balloons list I wanted to run go from 'not terribly competitive but fun' to 'I should find a different faction'. 

That being said I'm really looking forward to my Bonesplitterz book arriving in the mail. Going to mix them with a unit or two of Fyreslayers for thematic games with  friends too. I'm going to call it the "Sh** Happens When You Party Naked" list. 

[Chaotic Neutral]

On 8/19/2017 at 3:44 AM, Nico said:

KO pre-nerf were pretty grotesque in tournaments and not much fun to play against. Clown car with 10 Cannons firing twice and 9 Riggers buffed is pretty horrific. Routinely crippling/tabling opponents in two turns, often with their opponent having literally nothing to do but remove models - they move and buff turn one, then KO come down and kill all their valuable troops. They do have counters in a few factions, but were very likely to be nerfed. It was similar to the Clan Skryre list except with a better effective range.

Hopefully, the whole faction is rebalanced, with Frigates, Gunhaulers and heroes other than Khemists coming way down , while Riggers get a small hike.

i agree sir.

that's how it is being played here on the west coast.