Baron Wastelands

I also prefer the 1st list, as 3 leadbelchers aren’t going to do much on their own. My only suggestion is: try running a 2nd tyrant instead of a second butcher. You have the points, and I think you get more mileage out of tyrant redundancy than butcher, personally. Also, I have been using wild Fury instead of might is right for my gutgouger tyrant, ever since @James S suggested it - it will increase damage output slightly even before you take wounds.

I agree - I only play 1k with FEC, but 2 x AGKoTG, 2 x 10 ghouls is really effective. You get to summon 3x3 flayers /horrors most of the time, which is a nice supplement to 2 large monsters that can also cast. in terms of expanding to 2k, I have considered 2 more AGKoTG, but think at least 1AGKoZD would be better for the vargulf. Maybe 2 plus 10 ghouls. The only issue is that it takes a couple of turns to summon everything. I can see that Arkham would be useful in a heavy magic meta, but otherwise the strength is in the big threats, surely?

Completely true. But that’s an argument against leadbelchers in general, I think, whereas your original question was: what’s the most viable ogre shooting list, and I think my answer is: as many leadbelchers as money can buy, but I’m still interested in /uncertain on how to to split them. 12” is not good range ? So a sniping gun line they are never going to be. I think because of this, usual gun line concepts like “shooting at your targets of choice” are not going to apply - with that kind of range, your targets of choice (/ only target) are going to be the units bearing down upon you anyway. Anyway, whereas I don’t have enough leadbelchers to make a 2000 point army, I might try and put together 1k, and try a couple of configurations (e.g. 6x3, butcher, and 1x6, 4x3, butcher), and see how I get on! I agree that I expect to have to be able to perform in the melee phase as well as shooting. Against a real gun line, I think I will also suffer!

Tbh, depends on the rest of my army, and what its general strategy is. but as a general idea, if I was taking 10: probably 6,2,2 (the 6 to hunt wizards and war machines, the 2s to just get in the way / claim objectives far from the fight) or 4,4,2 ( bit more flexible, bit less reliable at hunting). Though 5x2 can mess with an opponents strategy quite a lot, just have some other idea for damage dealing. Tbh, have this anyway!

@Pitloze @Kyriakin I think a 10 cat skal is fine; but I wouldn’t go much higher as for me it’s a complementary utility, not a focus of the army. The ambush ability is great, but you need your opponent to be focused on something else, because the sabres aren’t good enough on their own to survive long enough to maintain board control, or chew through any major threats.

It does ? My thinking is something like this. L L L L L L LLLLLL B You move into range with all, firing. Then take charges with the MSUs. Those that survive can be healed or buffed by the butcher (for their melee attacks), and still then fire, while the back line (which could also be 2x3, staggered a bit) fire with d6 shots each on your next turn. My question then was, given that, as you point out, the back line could be 2x3 without losing any fire power, is there any merit in having 6 on the front line, because more likely to survive a charge and be healed, or be a better target for the melee buff? I do like the idea of them being MSU speed bumpy though, but then I’m thinking the butcher loses some effectiveness, at least for the cauldron effects. I can see the usefulness of guts, and they’re certainly better targets for a cauldron in a regular list. I’m just trying to optimise the number of shots fired by not diluting, but I admit the list may then be too one dimensional.

I can see the sense in MSU leadbelchers, as it won’t affect your shooting potential, but doubles the interference potential. I was going for belchers being their own chaff/interference, so that whatever gets hit, you can still shoot with all the rest. So maybe 12x3? I don’t have huge amounts of problems with battleshock in units of 6, as something that wrecks enough to make me lose models is going to finish that unit next turn anyway, most of the time. And as I said, ‘belchers are always a bit surprising in combat, if not exactly ironguts. 6 have the potential to do some damage there too, 3 less so. But both ways look potentially interesting to me. Honestly, I think 2 units of 6 just won’t put out enough shots to really feel like a gun line. Even in optimal circumstances (both units in 12” range, but screened so they aren’t within 3”, and don’t need to move), you’re generating 21 shots on average from each unit. 10.5 will hit, and 7 will wound. So 7 wounds at -1 rend (with the right butcher buff, about 9w). 14 for both units. Against 4+, that’s just under 5 wounds a unit, and only on your turn, under optimal conditions - just over 9 for both units. On flat average, that is. Now of course you’re never going to get 36 leadbelchers into optimal, but let’s say you managed half doing d6 shots and the other half doing d3. That’s 21 wounds at -1 rend from the back row, and 12 wounds at -1 rend from the front. Then plus anything you manage to do with the units that have been charged. If we give up a minor bit of combat potentially for the ability to speed bump longer, that’s probably worth it to run units of 3. The butcher’s heal is probably similar, though the +1 to hit buff affects less models with MSU, of course. *edit* re-reading your last post, it occurs to me that you mean 2x6 leadbelchers, then 8x3 leadbelchers? In which case, absolutely. ?

Yes, that’s exactly what I’d run for Braggoth’s. Only option is with the cats - run 2x2, 1x4 for 3 drop, 1x2 for 3 drop and extra CP, or none and run a fungoid shaman ally instead.

Ok, sounds good! Have wondered a similar thing, and have taken all battleline leadbelchers sometimes. Firstly, if we really want to maximise shots, I’m going to be quite controversial, and say we don’t need a tyrant (I know!). Cauldron butchers, yes; and I agree with units of 6, though grot walls will crumble quickly, especially without a tyrant. So either we max out on leadbelchers, and let them get into combat too (they’re really not bad, with the rend), supported (and sometimes healed) by butchers just behind the line. If you deploy in two lines, the back leadbelchers would get a chance to shoot d6 as well as the front line shooting d3 in combat. i also think maneaters are best in 6s, but while they are absolute (glass) cannons in melee, their shooting is a nice extra, not much more, even with crack shots. so, something like: 2x butcher with cauldron 6x6 leadbelchers soulsnare shackles This would put out a decent amount of shots, and would take some chewing through, whilst also being a bit handy in combat, and supported by a bit of magic and buffs. But is it too one dimensional to really work? Unless you think ... could it be time for ... ironblasters?! No, ok.

I think a huskard on stonehorn, outside of a battalion at least, is just a bit confused about what to do, and especially if the only mournfang packs to buff are 2 models strong. The butcher is not a bad ally wizard, and with a cauldron, the +1 to hit is particularly nice on BCR (another reason to run a larger mournfang pack), but he can also struggle to keep up with the mounts, so might end up stuck with your grots in this list. As ablative wounds, they’re ok - but personally I’m not a fan of min sized grots units. Other opinions may vary of course, and as a screen or objective camper, they are a cheap option. Frost sabres are even cheaper, of course.

You can absolutely build 2 characters, weapon wise (the frost Lord needs a spear, the huskard needs a harpoon/chaintrap/vulture). You haven’t got enough furs for both, but a bit of creativity makes 2 very plausible characters, especially if you have mournfang bits too. Braggoth’s is not a bad choice either - it will cost more to get two boxes of gruntas than a single SC, and it ties you to one particular list, is all. Boils down to what you want to take, really, and how flexible you want future lists to be. If you are going to run the beast hammer, then I’d run packs of 4 mournfangs in it. Frostlord on SH, 2x4 mournfang, 3x gore gruntas & braggoths will cost you 1570. From there, you’ll need another battleline, so I’d take TT beastriders. Then maybe some cats.

I agree with this. The utility of a skal is nice, but a small skal is going to get chewed up, mostly. I also think yhetees are good, but 3 is not going to do much more than the troggoths in isolation. Good job on not gluing your riders; I’d also build a second huskard rider from your bits (with blood vulture!) so you can run 2 huskards if desired. Then, an alternative route would be to just buy another SC box and run a Eurlbad+, something like: Huskard on stonehorn Stonehorn beastriders Mournfang packs 4, 4, 2 Eurlbad Huskard on Thundertusk 1990pts Then at 2.5k, you can always add your Skal back in if you want to - you’d get a hunter and 10 cats in total in with a Skal.

The list with fiends and WLC looks good for the purpose! Should be fun at least. I do think that warpfire throwers and shock gauntlets are the most consistently high performing for me (the latter are particularly great with packmaster buff). I think rattling guns are still useful, and probably in the next bracket for me, but you have to be more careful with their use. They are a bit inconsistent, but can chew through hordes, and quickly if you roll well. They also have some range, so can sit on an objective and still be useful. I’d take 3 or none though; 2 is just too limiting when you are only going to get a quarter of your shots through (on average). If you take 2 with a grinder, you’re giving it 2 roles without being good at either. I would also agree however that grinderfists are for heroes and monsters, but they’re generally a slightly less reliable melee option because they also have the movement utility.

I’m afraid I haven’t used him, so can’t really comment, but I know others on here have used him with good effect, seems to be quite effective for his cost. I think he would be useful in targeting and taking out buffing heroes in DoK, at least - maybe a doombull in BoC? He is also good support for melee units, in helping them get the charge when needed. Don’t think he adds much to a gun line though?

Not sure I have an answer for this beyond 1-2, which is maybe not very helpful! Probably more games with one, but then I will either go heavier into leadbelchers or into ironguts (and/or maneaters). But if it’s a competitive game then I will take 2 blocks, sometimes a large block of gnoblars, though I find them boring to play!

This. And to answer the original question, I usually go Gutbusters allegiance for the battleline options. If I’m taking any ogors, I only really take them in blocks of 12 at present, so 2 of those at 1k or 3 at 2k is too expensive. I therefore usually take a unit of 6 leadbelchers and/or 6 ironguts (though I know @James S is having some success with units of 3 as well) alongside a block of ogors. The only thing I really ally in (as a gutbuster purist!) is maneaters sometimes. If you’re going GA: destruction, I guess you can fill your battleline with other options (I.e. not ogors), but that doesn’t feel quite right to me!

I think I’d recommend thunderers, and lots of them. Which may not be what you want to hear, given your current collection! BoC have no shooting, and DoK have limited; both are going to want to mulch you in melee. Neither army has big saves, so the more shots you can do at range, the better. And the thunderers ability to retreat in combat means you are going to save at least a unit a turn if they charge multiple units. A single Fumigator helps too; deploy them in a bunch with the fumigator in the middle, so that even wrap arounds get fumed. You can try and alpha strike them with riggers, but it’s higher risk, and you have one shot. If they’ve gone heavy on one buffed unit at 1k, this might work, but Riggers will get pulled apart quickly if there’s much left of what they hit. Even combat heroes will get shredded against witch elves/ Bullgors/ghorgons.

This! If you’re just going for an all out mosh, I’d take stormfiends. At 1k, 3 packs plus a warlock engineer. At 1.5k, add another pack, an arch warlock, and ally in a packmaster for your shock gauntlets pack. I wouldn’t worry about grinder fists though. These are tactically useful, and can get you on to objectives early, but if the games you play don’t rely on that, then don’t build for it. Warp fire thrower fiends are great, shock fiends are great, Ratling gun fiends and doomflayer fiends are ok in a pinch. If you have some built as grinder fists then ok, use them as melee against monsters etc.

Some good ideas here. I think I would endorse all of the following: Arkanauts - give -1 rend. Also make cost 120/300, which would make large footslogging units more viable too. Thunderers - make battleline for KO. Sky wardens - make battleline if. Personally I’d make Brokk a generic (i.e. unnamed) character, and make sky wardens battleline if (e.g.) Sky Marshall is your general. Go balloon-bourne army! Gunhaulers - reduce cost. 120 sounds fair. I have a feeling their utility with ironclads should have more impact, but they’re too expensive to tinker with, and you certainly wouldn’t take them for damage output. Alternatively to reducing the cost, you could give them a transport capacity of 0, but allow riggers/wardens to hitch. Or a capacity of 1, to allow a character to ride as well. Ok, I mean khemist ? Frigate - 4+ save. Ironclad - 3+ save. @Kokoshi If by experienced you mean old, I’ll take it! ? But thanks for some very measured suggestions which have got us all thinking about non-game breaking solutions. Now you don’t know anyone at GW do you? ?

My point was that if you have an option to take riggers as battleline, everyone will. Notwithstanding that there are already spammable battleline in other armies, I don’t think that’s the way to ‘fix’ KO. Would like to see more options, certainly, that encourage a variety of builds.

Think these are very sensible ideas, would agree with the first and the third, certainly. With the second, I think having endrinriggers as battleline is a bit too good, but would maybe be ok with the other 2. Agree we need some battleline if ?

Yep, I used the larger of the gargant hackers from the mournfang kit for the actual blade of the polearm.

There’s a lot of -1 rend out there, so I wouldn’t bother with iron fists. Go with 2 weapons on all your ogors. 3 ogors are ok as a 3rd unit, given the points you have left, and can head to an objective. 20 grots will do less damage (I.e. none) but will take slightly more if CA’d, and can spread out further to screen initially. Alternatively you could take an ironblaster (I’m contractually obliged to say that as chair of the ironblaster appreciation in the face of performance society). A gutgouger will definitely outperform 2 hand weapons, but I wouldn’t buy a finecast Bragg unless you really like the model. I converted my gutgouger tyrant. Yup, use the CA on the big block of 12 ogors. He doesn’t have to be your general any more to use it, of course, but I’d make him general to stack trait+artifact on. Otherwise you will usually be able to spend remaining CPs on charges, since it’ll be vital to get your big block where you want it.

On the subject of God specific battalions, I have a couple of questions regarding the change to allow them to be taken in relevant armies, which I don’t think have been addressed yet. Firstly, suppose I take an army which consists of only a brass despoilers battalion. I can run this as a BoC army, or as a BoK army, right? If I choose to run it as a BoK army, with a doombull as my general, then: a) can I use Bullgors as battleline? b) where does my general get his command trait from? With respect to a), presumably there is no problem with me using gors as battleline in this instance, as they always are. But is the stipulation that Bullgors are battleline if I have a doombull general limited to BoC armies? And if so, how would I know that? And with respect to b), surely this should be from the BoK command traits, and yet he lacks any of the relevant keywords (mortal, daemon, blood bound) which would allow him to choose. Similarly of course with artifacts. Of course in reality I might want to use a bloodsecrator as well as the battalion, who could be my general and take at least one artifact. But what if I didn’t? I can gain the khorne summoning rules by running (only) the battalion as a BoK army, why can’t I access command traits/artifacts as well?

Do you need to worry about battleline at any point? That will be the main issue with your first list; also, yhetees and sabres won’t be affected by butcher cauldron buffs. Think I prefer the second list of the two. However ... I can’t help but feel that a stonehorn at 500pts will rock; you could do: hunter, 2x sabres, 1x stonehorn beastriders or stonehorn huskard, 2x mournfang in the first I’d build towards a skal, in the second to a eurlbad/jorlbad maybe? or if battleline is really no problem, you could do: hunter, 3 yhetees, 6 yhetees or huskard on tt, 3 yhetees (keep adding TTs and yhetees, go for a Torrbad ?) or hunter, 18 cats ?