Hollow

Yeah... you are looking too much into that IMO. Marketing images are not representative of game rules. Never have been.

Huh? You read this; "Combined with the freedom to create and arm characters as you choose from a wide range of options, players have a lot of strategic choices to make when building their units and writing their muster lists, choices that will, in turn, inform their tactics on the battlefield." and that was your takeaway? 🤔

Oh, there is no doubt that the vast majority of people who buy GW models do so to collect, paint and model rather than to play games of Warhammer.

Well, I'm not going to introduce or play with House Rules when I am not playing in my House (or in somebody else's) I have played in plenty of clubs and groups over the years that have generic house rules like (No Special Characters) I don't really understand what you are discussing with your opponent beforehand that is taking so much time? I just bring a few copies of my army list, with short descriptions of the units (and their main abilities) which I hand to my opponent before we play. They might have a couple of questions but that takes all of 2 minutes. When I'm talking about proxies, it has to be in good faith (I always try to play in good faith, I don't do Gotcha nonsense or try to break the game with silly combos or by interpreting rules in a bad-faith manner) I am there to have fun, not try and stomp an opponent, perfectly happy to lose if the game is fun. The models should make sense as the thing they are. (I'm not putting down an ashtray and calling it a tank) But I would happily field some fantasy High Elf models (correctly based and nicely painted) as some Lumineth for example.

The other smaller starter sets have been very reasonable IMO.

Yeah, opposite experiences and views. I am firmly in the camp that the vast majority of games are played in casual environments using a mixture of PL, points, narratives, proxies and house rules. Funnily enough, I have never had any problems (At FLGS, Warhammer stores, Game clubs, or even tournaments) using conversions or well-thought-out and easily identifiable proxies. This is using matched play rules against people I have never met. What kind of person would go to a store, meet someone who goes through their list and models, all of which are nicely painted, based, and easily identifiable, and say "No way, put those in the bin, I refuse to play against anything that isn't the exact current model!" Perhaps I am lucky? I've just never encountered people like that IRL. (Out of thousands over the years) I only encounter this thought process online.

Surely in that time, you have seen just how redundant "rules" for models actually are. They are just abstract made-up ideas and concepts that can be changed with a simple sentence between friends. I struggle to understand how it's possible anybody could buy these models for anything OTHER than a pure Hobby perspective, it's the only thing that actually lasts. In my world (40k at least) there are 10 editions worth of rules and the same models all have different rules in each of them. The rules come and go. The models stay forever. It takes all types and people just have very different experiences. The people I know consider this hobby to be very value-driven generally. A few hundred quid and you have something that can literally be used for decades.

I think the vast majority of people playing GW games are not on forums/ at tournaments and don't play in clubs or at Warhammer/FLG stores but in their living rooms with 1 or 2 friends. They aren't part of "gaming communities" in any way. It's all anecdotal I suppose. I just don't see how a company selling hundreds of millions of pounds worth of products a year can be supported by the mere thousands of people represented in groups and online. Even the biggest tournaments in the world have less than 1k participants.

Well... it kinda wasn't. I would have agreed if the point was a NEW player entering the hobby will get that impression because matched play dominates online debate and many pick-up spaces. I was disagreeing with the assertion that 99% of the existing player base is only aware of matched rules. I think the vast majority of players playing the game are doing so in casual environments. This is purely anecdotal and I could be completely wrong. Although I feel like there is quite a difference between gaming scenes in Europe and the USA. The US seems to be a lot more competitive and focused on points/meta/tournies than in Europe.

Sigvald has been marked as 'Sold Out Online' for a number of weeks. (at least in the UK) Don't believe he is gone, but might not be back for a while (repackage maybe)

Funnily enough, I think the reality is the complete opposite. I believe the vast, vast majority of Warhammer games are played in casual environments amongst friends. The hyper-focused, online crowd of meta-chasing tourney players are in fact the minority but think they are the majority (mainly because they dominate online discourse). This is my own personal opinion but I think if you were able to really look into it, the percentage of customers who have purchased a product from GW in the last 12 months and not even played a single Warhammer game (never mind a competitive one) in that time, accounts for 90%+ of the total customer base.

I shall aspire to employ the same rigorous academic standards to casual forum posts as my multiple thesis, I shall also refrain from trying to bring a little helpful perspective to those I perceive as a bit down about anything. I apologise profusely, how could I have been so awful!?! I like my Grimdark in wargames. Not real life. I won't reply to any further comments on what was intended to be an innocent pick-me-up. Anyways... 🙄 Looks like Kruel Boyz to me. Would love to see some cavalry options for the swampy bois. Although it could be Troggoth related?

A degree! Wow! Somebody with a degree in Anthropology should know what a quote is. I didn't quote anybody. Although, if I want to, I will quote anybody I like. I have 2 BAs, an MA and a PHD. Bow before my superior academic qualifications peasant! (I also know how worthless and bankrupt much of Academia is. Having worked in it for years) Regardless. I wasn't trying to make some political point. I was trying to provide a little perspective, to what I perceived as someone feeling a bit down about how things appear to be these days. That is all. So get back in your box.

I don't want to get off-topic. Just remember that perspective is important and a lot of the information sources of today thrive on pumping out negative narratives. It's important to step back and look at the big picture. 2023 is THE BEST time to be living for the vast majority of human beings, better than any other time in human history. Hundreds of millions of humans have been lifted out of extreme poverty, with more access to education, health and information than ever before. As for the GW release cycle, I'm not a fan of how much isn't actually new stuff. If you look at the pre-order page on the GW website today, there isn't really a single new thing. It's just all repackaged stuff in different starter sets. (Incidentally, many of my local FLG's and Warhammer stores still have dozens of copies of Levithian sitting on the shelves.) I find frequently that I think, "damn, so many new things coming out this week! 12+ preorders" but when you actually look into it, it's only maybe a handful of actually new things. I sincerely hope this trend doesn't get out of control ( I fear it might with the number of old kits returning for TOW) where they just start churning out old stuff, repackaged because it's nearly all profit)

I always have kinda seen Underworlds as AoS "Necromunda" type setting.

I'm sure GW really hopes that "people" get angry like they did last time. "Last time" was the beginning of a meteoric rise in GW success and sales.

I suppose my idea "Warcry was released, was well received and has had frequent updates, has followed the roadmaps they laid out and they are now getting around to the non-chaos warbands that they talked about potentially getting around to when the designer's notes were first released for the game." Sure people would like to see other things. People even had suggestions about what they would like to see in the future. That doesn't say to me "People didn't like the game" which was the comment that was just narrative generating. Games don't get support and multiple editions if nobody likes them or they are not successful.

Who? Who are these people you are talking for? If you didn't like it that is fine. But generating a narrative to support your own personal opinion is skewed. How do you know this information? The product design workflow run months/years in advance. GW doesn't do "last-minute" I could see the double packaging of warbands as perhaps shifting excess stock, but that is just speculation. You seem to know definitively? The game is going really strong (and it is basically a product equivalent to a single well-served Faction line for either 40k or AoS) I agree with diversification, but always felt that was on the cards as I would have thought GW didn't intend on ONLY releasing Choas bands forever.

Ah. So when you said. "People didn't like it" What you meant to say was "I didn't like it". Got it.

Where did you get "People didn't like the first edition of Warcry?" From most accounts, the game was super well received.

In a magical world, I would have GW invest £100 million + into a new production and storage facility as a WARHAMMER Legends department. It would provide an annual catalog like the old Citadel catalog for every kit, ever produced since the beginning. There would be the "current games" of 40k and AoS and with each update, a significant amount of kits would be moved to legends. The Legends department would also do limited full runs of old editions. (How cool would it be to buy a 2nd edition 40k limited edition set with all the published material from that era? Using modern hardback publishing?) I am a big advocate for cutting certain things. Not because I don't like them, or have something against them (I love ToW) I just think it is good for AoS as a game and product line to stay tight and focused. People frequently talk about wanting to have tight rules. I want tight model collections, from a visual design perspective.

Ah, Dogs of War.... Lorenzo Lupo is all that remains of my fated DoW collection. He stands shieldless and with a chipped derpy 20-year-old paint job. The merchant prince has been biding his time. He shall be reforged! He will be stripped and renewed to serve in my new CoS army! Long live Lorenzo Lupo!! Merchant Prince of Luccini! (I like to think many of the DoW characters found some crazy Lizardmen tech that entombed their souls and transported them across the void into the Mortal Realms, they are just now waking up, confused, from a billion-year nap.)

I bought (or my dad bought me) my first miniatures just over a quarter of a century ago. I still use some of the models that have managed to keep a hold of. The kits that GW stops selling have generally been available for years. If people wanted them, then they have had every opportunity to get them. There seems to be a strange expectation (which GW has been foolish to perpetuate IMO) that models will be supported forever (which is just ludicrous in my view as the product line will inevitably become a bloated mess) As Draznak said, I think it has been a mistake for AoS to STILL have so many of its product lines as ToW transplants. Square bases and paint jobs from ToW are still listed under AoS years after its launch. ToW is bringing back square bases? By the looks of the webstore, they have never left!! I generally like change and embrace it. The majority of people do not. I can hardly wrap my head around the idea that someone would be "sad" that a collection of decade-old kits from another game are most likely being moved back to that game. Like, what is there to be sad about? I'm just sad that so many of the ToW persist in AoS to this day.

This is a minor thing but I am glad they finally put the Celestial Hurricanum on a round base! With the approach of ToW hopefully, we can see an end to square bases being marketed under the AoS banner. With these removals (I guess most of these kits will return under ToW banner) it will only really leave the Dark Elves (The Duardin Models are some of the best-looking ToW kits in the CoS range IMO). I'll guess we will see what happens with them in 4th Edition.

I love the box and really like the fact that it comes with a chunk of good old infantry! The core of my new CoS army will be infantry so I am happy.