Knight Scáthach of Fimm

In your opinion maybe, but when you compare points cost for things like Wychelves and Flesh Eater combos to most other units, that is most certainly broken; they are aberrations by comparison. I'm not calling Bloodthirsters broken, I'm calling standard infantry that when buffed have a damage potential of 240 broken or dragons that can do a dance and a backflip before you can blink broken. People see the best something can be and want that, disregarding what they already have. Say that to Frodo Don't make it about being competitive when I established we're talking about an army of Trolls. In normal AoS that is outside of the tournament scene, a Dankboss is a balanced unit. A Ghoul King on Terrorgheist in-allegiance is not. This is not AoS2 Competitive Dankold Troggoth Discussion so please don't keep bringing everything down to being competitive. If you see everything through a meta lens then you're going to miss the way non-tournament players play and how they define things. Please remember that not everyone here is talking about a tournament scene. Most AoS players do not play competitively. You define units competitively, while most people just want to play a good balanced game and have fun, while feeling like what they field is satisfying to use. I see a Dankboss as balanced because, much to people's complaints, he actually comes with a weakness, while also being able to perform to a decent standard (shocking I know). This, in my eyes, is a balanced unit. He may be tipping the scales at 300, but he's most certainly not a stab in the foot; that is what I'd define an underpowered unit as, something that harms you to take it over an alternative. Again, if you want to talk competitive, then you're in the wrong thread to begin with because everything is stacked against a hyper-elite army in AoS. It's not the Dankboss' fault, it's the game system that favors massed hoards and flying beatsticks. Furthermore, on the note of a buffbot: that's what almost all foot heroes do, and a Dankboss is a foot hero. Sure, he has the combined cost of a few of them, but who else can generate 1 extra command point a turn without rolling for most of the game, or have a high concentration of power on such a durable base? Mega boss example is pretty bad as we're going back to the damage route again which, as I will say again, is not what you should be playing him as; a Dankboss can and will hold his own if he has to. Most people would shriek at the thought of a 300 point backline hero who is a charge deterrent and a buff machine, and I say shriek away because that's what he is. I would however like to see him come down 20-40 points; not because it benefits me precisely, but so people can finally stop bitching. But let's be real. The complaints will never stop.

I doubt any Dankholds are going down by much due to the way GW calculate points. Dankboss has so many rules and advantages over other models, even though people seem to only see his damage. The lack of a degrading statline, the ability to take cover and look out sir are all things people seem to overlook and I imagine it's why he's so expensive. He's also on a 60mm base with a monster statline which may also be taken into account, his power per square inch is huge by contrast. He's the smallest biggest foot hero in the game and that counts for a lot. d6 damage and 6" move though oh no! (even though you can literally fix these). He's a rock solid lynchpin for command abilities and cp generation, he's not meant to be a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist. In a book where most things are relatively cheap it balances itself out; taken in a vacuum he will always look overcosted. If you're taking Troggherd and a Hag don't be surprised when the army's looking a little light on the table. Or maybe he's just a balanced model in a game where *Insert flying monster* is king. Furthermore, in a game where magic is critical to many armies, the ability to ignore spells probably is a solid amount of his cost already. But then people will always complain if it doesn't fly and hit like a ballistic missile. I mean people think the Mangler Boss is overcosted and it does that too! Dankboss will be between 260 and 280 at best, any more is wishful thinking. Probably 280. Calling him a 220 model is ludicrous; just because, unlike many models, he hasn't got a hyper-specialized role doesn't automatically make him bad. Want to make him efficient? Just do what most people do and generate 50 points every turn with Loonskin. I find it hard to call that bad. Normal Dankhold going anywhere close to 160 invalidates the already mostly invalid Gargant, although if we ignore him I'd say 180 is good. I can't imagine normal trolls going down at all as they are solid units in most regards. But they're not wychelves so they're automatically overcosted by some people's reckoning... Or maybe it's because people like to compare the balanced units to the broken ones and call the former bad? The Dankboss is fine, just don't overload on other expensive units. He's one of those models that on turns 4 and 5 you'll be glad you have because he's still alive and can work at full capacity regardless of what's going on. And if you lose such an easy to protect model then I can't help you. You can make the point that he's not great for tournaments. Sure. But here we are in a thread talking about an army of Trolls, so we've already moved past that point.

I'd always bring at least 1 unit of 20 grots. The thing with a Troll army is very careful positioning as losing even one troll will be felt. If you can get the positioning right and pick your fights (Itchy Nuisance helps a ton here) then Trolls will roll over almost anything they get close to. The low model count is an issue, but then if you're the last man standing then numbers are irrelevant. Trolls are very good at being last man standing. Also, because every attack counts (at least with Rockguts) I bring Moonface Mommet to rule out my enemy making any saves (provided it's 4+) as they can and will roll a 6 or two.

I was going to say; it's kinda the workhorse. On another note, if the merc company retains the Freepeoples keyword I can see them having some utility as as far as I'm concerned, it can be very difficult for Freeguild to get behind an enemy line without a Griffon. I also rarely ever spend my first command point in a battle so.

If the Freeguild mercs still have the same keywords + mercenary then I'd actually consider taking them alongside my normal Freeguild as the outflank has uses that Freeguild don't have access to atm.

Despite their simplicity, a Troggherd army will take a lot of skill to do well with; in fact I'd argue it's because of this that they're hard to play with. Not to say they can't be strong, as anything getting hit by 6 buffed Rockguts will die or be left crippled on the floor. After all, this is Age of Sigmar where you can literally take any army and do well with it so long as you know it extremely well; the ruleset allows for underdogs to take out the meta armies, and often. Skill is a huge factor most of the time, although the only thing I can think of that doesn't count is Gristlegore as that's rather brain-dead imo. Except vs Nighthaunt I just don't see how Trolls can fight that as they're the perfect counter. I see too many battle reports where the Troll player has no idea what they're doing and just throws minimum unit sizes into the midfield and doesn't protect their boss. They're also 100% trolls which I think is a mistake; I think you need to at least have 20 stabbas and a Fungoid. If you know what you're doing, Trolls will do just fine. In fact twice now they've ended the game on turn 3, which my Freeguild can't do.

You make it seem like I'm building a tournament list. I have a painted Dankhold and it's not exactly a stab in the foot to take one, after all it's not a giant. I like their ability to pick out certain models from groups, or prevent stringing models out. He also fits in the Troggherd.

My list that I played with the other day. Smashed Slaves to Darkness twice before the 3rd turn was up. -Dankhold Troggboss: 300 General Tough as Rocks +2 wounds Blade of Hammerhal-Ghyra +1 attack on fist. (may change) -Madcap Shaman: 80 Itchy Nuisance/ Moonface Mommet -Fungoid Cave Shaman: 90 Hand of Gork -6 Rockgut Troggoths: 320 -6 Rockgut Troggoths: 320 -3 Fellwater Troggoths: 160 -3 Fellwater Troggoths: 160 -20 Stabbas: 130 -Dankhold Troggoth: 220 -Troggherd: 180 When GHB drops I'm certain i can get Skrapskuttle's in there too and probably more. Usually I find games get split down the flanks so the Dankhold's bravery buff actually came into play as half the army had to split from the boss. I found him a nice support model, and a big tanky threat when in cover. Paired well with the fellwaters and grots.

Played 2 games of Troggherd vs Slaves to Darkness. Dankboss and 6 Rockguts w/ Itchy Nuisance and Moonface Mommet cleared 10 chaos knights like a breeze. I think Moonface is important, because every attack that gets saved is a big deal, so out right denying the chance to save I found was very important, as even if they're saving on 6s it can and will happen. I don't think -3 rend is overkill when it comes to such important attacks. I ran 2 units of 6 Rockguts flanked by a Dankboss; their guaranteed boulder throws are very useful for hitting backline heroes. I also had 2 units of 3 Fellwaters, but they're better at working independently so handled the other side of the board with the goblins. I was running Tough as Rocks, as while Loonskin is great, I felt I always had enough command points. Also my ethos is always; healing is cool but it's worthless if you don't reach your hero phase, so the extra 2 wounds I prefer. He also had +1 attack on fist as the ability to selectively remove elite models is great. The Dankboss was the biggest linchpin so I think the extra wounds to keep him around was justified. Furthermore, I found that he was incredibly easy to protect from charges, particularly against cavalry, as he has so many wounds on a relatively tiny base; his power per square inch is likely the highest in the game. I need to remember that Troggherd bonuses exist. My opponent had to concede on turn 3 both games as the trolls wasted everything they touched. I find them great fun and easy to maneuver, although I'll need to play them against newer armies. Saying that, this is a Troggherd so I reckon the power levels were very close between the two armies. This was against 20 knights, 30 warriors and 2 manticores so there was plenty of meat in the force.

LoN are at the back of the line; of course they will eventually get a new book, unless GW pull a Khorne and bring one out of the blue for no apparent reason.

I think a more apt question would be do they deserve one?

I can see Treelords being a support monster, if you don't have multiple Durthu's. Having a distraction carnifex and one that can make enemies fight last for say Kurnoths to then strike sounds good for 200; they're also better targets for healing. I'm not sure what people are wanting from Treelords, as by default they will always be inferior to the Ancient and Durthu, so unless you're wanting them even cheaper I'm not sure what can be done to satisfy some people. Hell I doubt people would be happy if they were 100 points. I think the implication of a cheap tanky monster teleporting around is enough.

I ordered the rest of my Troggherd to complete a 2k list. My original Troggboss is named Grumble the Snooze King, and he has a night-cap shaped mushroom that grows on his head, but I reckon he'll be relegated to normal Dankhold, as when I first read about Skragrott's armored Dankholds I've wanted to convert one. I had the idea to armor one like the new Loonboss, with a Bad Moon helmet and beaten metal plates. Not sure how he'll be equipped, as I really enjoyed the maximum crush build with Blade of Hammerhal Ghyra and Pulverizing Grip, although I feel a max durability build might be thematically better and tactically so, as making sure I can give the 12 Rockguts I'll have reroll 1s is important. The plan is that he'll be unarmed with just his fists. Saying that, the moment I go up against unrendable eels I'll regret not having him double crushing on 4s rerolling. And to be honest, he's very easy to protect due to being a foot hero and not a monster so added durability may not be needed, plus the thing most people overlook is that he's on a 60mm base which makes him tougher and fightier than anything else in his size range, not to mention he punches in the same weight class as some 160mm base monsters. Something I always found funny is that in lore Rockguts are stronger than the weapons they use.

Provided they are all in base contact

Okay good

So does this mean Branchwraiths auto-summoning 10 Dryads every turn? Because that's turning 80 points into 500 points

That's one of the good parts about reroll all hits, so say if Spider Riders could get it then you'd be fishing for every 6 you can get as their normal attacks are weak. Also reroll failed hits appears to be an old style ruling, while new rules seem to always state flat rerolls.

Okay well if you play Free Peoples with a list entirely built around one single general and having him be your only source of synergy, then I'm not surprised you think they're terrible. Not to mention anyone with some foresight can plan for this obvious weakness. Hell, anyone that stacks their army around one dude is skating on thin ice so hard to say that Free Peoples are an offender. I would agree that Stormcast are better suited to the person's needs, coming from 40k, but Free Peoples are very much a valid choice for what he wants, and something I can give good feedback on, since I actually play them and not Stormcast.

I'm about to leave for the next 2 days or so, so I won't be able to reply to any questions.

I don't need a new battletome to play and do well in AoS, and he doesn't need to either.

I never said expand the range; Free Peoples will get the same treatment as everyone else; Battletome, Endless Spells and a terrain piece (unfortunately, I don't like the idea of free terrain). We won't get new models for them, and I don't count endless spells. And I don't agree with your statement; you sound as if you have insider knowledge about GW's intentions which I doubt; Free Peoples and their aesthetic appear on many books.... because that's just what they are and how they look. I see the same argument every time; old Empire doesn't fit AoS, and that's utterly backwards. The whole thing about AoS is that almost anything can and does exist in this world, and we literally know they do as they appear on the novel covers. This isn't even relevant to the thread so can we get back on track?

No, supported means they have rules that get updated every year; Gitmob Grots are not supported and are being phased out by all accounts. Free Peoples are very much supported. Not entirely sure why you seem to think this, as when you recombine the old Empire range you get about 30 kits and so the means to make a battletome far larger than most. Not to mention they are on many book covers and appear in the lore all the time. Free Peoples will most definitely get their support in the future, either through a Battletome or another Firestorm expansion. To say they will be left in the dust forever is ludicrous when Flesh Eater Courts and Beastclaw Raiders can get a book.

Pretty sure they said at Warhammer fest that all supported armies in the next 2 years will get a tome.

I can post my list; it's not designed to be competitive but I can take it most places and do adequately. The core units that you ought to or would be wise to include I will highlight. My list is rather Jack of All Trades with a bit of everything but not so much that it's sporadic and decentralized. I may make the greatswords 30 and remove the archers but I find their screening potential invaluable. Cavalry is always important in a slow army; those Outriders are often the reason I win. Warlord Traits and items are down to your preference. A unit of ranged infantry is staple, but I didn't highlight it as you have choices as to what kind you want; both are good. Ideally I'd have 30 handgunners, however they can get compromised very easily and I'm satisfied fielding 20. I also do not enjoy painting ranged troops that aren't archers. As for the tome, I wouldn't worry about it; Free Peoples are adequately supported via the General's Handbook and they feature heavily in the lore. A tome will happen eventually. Allegiance Abilities: Free Peoples Realm: Ghur Allies: (360/400) Leaders: -General on Mount: 100 w/ Indomitable, Shield, and Stately War Banner (Army General) -General on Griffon: 260 w/ Gryph Feather Charm (+1 move -1 to hit) great weapon, shield -Luminark w/ Battlemage: 240 -Battlemage w/ Wildform: 120 Battleline: -40 Freeguild Guard (swords/ shields): 280 -20 Freeguild Greatswords: 280 -10 Freeguild Archers: 100 -6 Demigryph Knights: 280 -20 Freeguild Handgunners: 200 Other: -5 Freeguild Outriders: 130

Free Peoples hold the line like no one else; not because they're just tanky, but because they can thin your ranks before the combat phase even begins. Right now they are basically better Dispossessed due to access to cavalry and Collegiate Arcane. They are also 99% likely to get a battletome in the not too distant future. If he's coming from 40k, I'd argue that Stormcast fit the bill better as they operate much like Space Marines. Free Peoples are more nuanced and difficult to play, but have distinct advantages; they aren't the equivalent to Imperial Guard though. They're my main army, and I find them very rewarding to play. However, large units of infantry are difficult to manage, so if he doesn't want to faff around moving dudes then Stormcast is probably the better pick, with access to greater flexibility; if you're in Free Peoples you're stuck there, but Stormcast can mix and match. In my experience, Free Peoples can contend with most other armies and participate in all phases of the game (provided you have Collegiate Arcane). Now they might not be the strongest, but they definitely go down fighting to the last. They also often win the long game. They also have room to play aggressive, which nearly always catches my opponents off guard; they have cavalry for the enemy objectives, and suddenly breaking formation and charging a midfield unit can send opponents into disarray as they were expecting to come to you, so now their battleplan is triggered one or two turns early. With some good positioning you can even keep your ranged troops ready to overwatch with full bonuses. Greatswords are a good example of units that can suddenly break formation and rush an unsuspecting unit, because they can and will blend anything they touch when buffed to 2+ 2+. Their weakness is to mortal wounds (and to generate mortal wounds), so a wise player always brings a Luminark. Luminarks provide a 6+ shrug save and a +1 unbind so they provide adequate protection against magic. You also get about 2 laser shots off per game, which can cripple a monster before it can act (shot a colossal Squig turn one and it flopped into my Griffon to die). Warp Lightning Cannons will be annoying as they can kill foot generals easily, but there's ways around that; like the aforementioned doom laser. Also handgunner snipers are good for this. I would not recommend anything from Ironweld though. Edit: we also have the most efficient flying battletank in the game.