PlasticCraic

I play against Hearthguard quite a lot, and I'm sorry @Marcoangelo33 but I've found tagging the end of the unit to be very ineffective. Because they have 2" melee range and pile in twice every turn, they effectively have 8" range in combat. They always blow up anything that I put in combat with them, even if I tag the edge. But I often still beat them. Firstly with Drakkfoot (Bonesplitterz). I sometimes run a Drakkfoot Kunnin Rukk with a Rogue Idol, and this just eviscerates Fyreslayers. Bang away with shooting until they're down to single digits then knock them on the head with Pebbles. The Prophet can chip away a couple each turn with his spell too. I don't bother trying to shoot off the Heroes, because they're -1 to hit and -1 to wound, and palm off half of what does get through to Aurics, so it takes a couple of turns to kill even a single support Hero. I get more mileage just by chipping off a few Hearthguard with every round of Dakka, and it adds up quickly. But this is a niche build, and pretty much a hard counter to Fyreslayers. Secondly with Big Stabbas (Big Waaagh). Run your screen of Stikkas forward, and run your Stabbas in behind them. Set up 2.5" back. That way if he wants to engage he has to bring them into combat, but can't hit them. You hit him over the top with 3" melee. He kills a few Savage Orruks, then you swing back and delete the unit. I'm currently running a block of 8 Big Stabbas with a Warboss, and they consistently blow up a unit of 20 Hearthguard with each swing. If I try to engage with them, even by tagging the ends, I always lose every combat. If I play objectives, they just plod over to those objectives and backhand me off them. Their army is so, so easy to play: just walk forward and autowin every combat. The only way I've been able to deal with them is by pumping in round after round of shooting (which ignores their aftersaves), or by hitting over the top of a screen with a 3" melee range murderball.

It's frustrating, but if you message a TO in advance I would expect most people to be pragmatic about it.

Love it! Have you got any good stories of how you used the Command Ability? My army is painted as Bloodtoofs, so I'm super keen to give them a good go.

Cool, well I'm currently running something similar myself (swapped the Prophet and Rogue Idol for a Warboss and 8 Big Stabbas). FWIW though I think the version you are running is probably better overall though. @Garuun might have some input because he's running the same list as you (took it to 4th overall at Cancon). In my case, if my opponent looks like they will / could Alpha, I normally box myself in with Stikkas and then fight my way out of it. This build is very, very good at killing something just sitting in front of it. You can always get out of being boxed in with Hand of Gork if you need to, but by the time you fight with Mighty D and shoot 90 Arrows, you'll probably be blowing holes to move through. Biggest decision I have is Pigs inside the box (protecting the rear of my Heroes as the phalanx moves forward, ready to peel off and get forward when the time comes with a Mighty D double move), or Pigs outside the box (giving me a mobile hammer threat). Totally depends on my opponent's army and how they deploy. But in your case it's less of a worry, since you can fly Pebbles out when the time comes, so I'd be using them mainly as a rear screen to protect your Wizards and then peel forward. Make sure you have most / all bodiess in a 36" bubble, so you can hit the Waaagh button and pump up your Allegiance Ability turn 1. Personally I needed to practice deploying a few times to stop ****** this up and being too spread out. But an 18' bubble is plenty to work with. You might want Pebbles / Big Stabbas set up just behind your frontlines so you can hit over the top. Make sure you know your opponent's melee range (ask them) and set back 0.5" further than that. So if they have 2" range, you deploy 2.5" back, so you can hit them over the top but they can't hit you (works better with Big Stabbas if they have 2" range but Pebbles can still do it, since he can take a few hits in return). Obviously make sure your Chanter is wholly within 15" of both your Pigs and Pebbles. I set up my footslogging Heroes as far forward as I can (without being in Melee range if the front line gets charged), so they can keep up as you advance. Hold Pebbles back, his mobility freaks people out but once he's out there, he's out there. He has a big impact as an infinite range threat and counter punch unit. He can handle himself no worries, but you won't be getting any more Mighty D pile ins or buffs on him once he's off on his own. You want a couple of turns of buffed casting before you catapult him generally. Ideally I like to fling him off at the top of the turn (say turn 3) with a Warchanter buff applied, so he is double turn insurance. He's also a good Hero sniper, since he can hit over the top of screens. Smash their General on the head and your opponent's shoulders will usually drop once they realise their whole army has to do a 180 to deal with him. If I was going to YOLO anything, it would probably be the Pigs, but usually skirmishing down a flank into something they can blow up in a turn. Make your opponent send something good to deal with them, that he'd rather be advancing. So it's damage output and an anvil, but also pulling their resources around. But I'm usually pretty cautious, move everything up behind my line of Stikkas, and wait for the moment to hit that big red button. You can generally force the issue by peppering away with shooting - you don't need to fling your best units forward to get some output. One other tip is that I use mini mag trays with 1" gap for the Stikkas, so you can string out really quickly and easily. Hope that helps!

I did a write up on the new Battalions, which may be of interest to you guys : https://plasticcraic.blog/2020/02/19/ironjawz-white-dwarf-battalions-leaks-and-analysis/

What else you running mate? I guess the first thing I'd say is that you want the Stikkas in front and the Arrows behind, but I guess you already got that 😁

It would mean a massive retcon if so. The Celestant Prime murdered Behemat, and Sigmar murdered his father. I don't see it personally.

Speaking of the big Battalions - and not that I would go there - but would I be correct in thinking that they are technically Matched Play legal? They have points in the current GH19, and everything they containt still exists. Bloodtoofs Warclan in a Bloodtoofs Battalion for +3" to charge? Ironsunz and Ironsunz for neg 2 to be hit in the first Battleround, and loads of CPs? Or even Ironsunz Warclan in a Bloodtoof Battalion, to get those countercharges cranking at +2"? The opportunities are endless, for anyone gamey enough to go there!

Sorry I meant General's Handbook - so I'm meaning that window where we had a spell lore for the Teleport, and big Battalions for the extra +1" to charge, but not the Clans or the full book. So I'm talking about the same kind of stuff you are really - you could totally combine that with the tech that @Lanoss is citing to hit them from all sides at once. Mighty D your pigs and / or Krusha along the deck, teleport your Ardboyz into the backfield, and BAM! BAM! BAM!

Personally I would say that Bloodtoofs is more Ardboyz focussed. The one-shot teleport is used on a unit with inherent bonuses to charge, so you fling a massive block of Ardboyz across the table and charge at +4". It's the most similar to the classic GH style of play.

I mean I don't need to grasp at straws, I'd proven my point that 6" pile ins are already a part of Activation Wars with Tyrants of Blood. You might want to check the results for London GT too, that was recently won with a heap of Sisters of Slaughter. If you want another example, the Squigalanche Battalion gives the whole army a 6" pile in. Ben Johnson went 4-1 with that, and so did James Chalmers, so it's no joke. You're right about Locus, that's actually a good example of part of Activation Wars that you will ignore. My bad. However you will not be ignoring things like Fyreslayers fighting first and then fighting again on their turn, blasting you off the table before you'll get a chance to react. They are still activating multiple times before you get to activate at all, I.e. Activation Wars. Another one you wouldn't ignore is Alvagr Rune Tokens: when they charge you, they can activate against you again and again before you get to activate at all, I.e. Activation Wars So it really is a huge exaggeration to say you can "effectively ignore the whole activation wars". Piling in from outside of 3" is already around, and it's not the end of Activation Wars, it's part of it.

It's one reason why I always take a Brutish Cunning Megaboss in Big Waaagh lists. But then I don't (currently) play the big Ardifst lists. The others I get, but why does it help Hand of Gork? Also: Ghyrropian Gauntlets :-)

Eh that's a bit of an exaggeration. Piling in from outside of 3" is already a big part of Activation Wars (see: Tyrants of Blood). To be back inside melee range after your pile in, you'll need to start a maximum of 3.9" or 4.9" away depending on the weapon profile (and mostly the former) so any 6" pile in players in Activation Wars will still have you. See: Tyrants of Blood, Yhetees, Sisters of Slaughter, Bonegrinder Gargants... Furthermore you'll still be in range for Locus of Diversion at the end of the charge phase, which is another big player in Activation Wars. So you're not ignoring that either. It's another tool in Activation Wars, it doesn't bypass the whole thing.

Yeah I don't hate them, on paper at least. I think their biggest issue is that they can't go in any Battalion, so they cost you a drop. Which puts them at a disadvantage in their direct competition with 5 Ardboys. But if you really, really need that 10 points...I don't think they're terrible.

Actually I've been looking at Big Stabbas again! My current focus is attemping to design a Tzeentch Killer, because I'm mostly focussed on team events this year. Big Stabbas in Big Waaagh is of serious interest: hitting and wounding on 2s and 2s, yes please! I think Boneys have serious play against the pop-up Flamer lists, because of the pregame move; for that reason I'm looking closely at Icebone, because you can still take the 8" pregame move CT. It's a decent all round faction so I think you can tailor against Tzeentch and be an all-rounder against most other armies. The things I'm looking for are mainly huge volume of damage at low rend. Essentially I want an army that can just tear through Horrors. And also I want everything to be on small bases, so you can set up 9.1" back from your chaff line; but also with reach, in case they backboard and make you go first. This is what I've got so far: With a fair tailwind, you should be able to blast through even a 300-wound army, if all it's trying to do is tag and block. You can buff the Gruntas and pile them in twice with Mighty Destroyer; you can use the Wizards to jack up your shooting (hitting on 4s and banging 6s), or to get your Savage Orruks hitting on 2s; your Stabbas are naturally going to be 2s and 2s, and again you can make them bang on 6s; you have loads of bodies to rack up early Waaagh; and the classic Warboss is a huge force multiplier for all of the above. With his Waaagh every turn and the Big Waaagh stacking with it, and old mate chipping in with Destroyer, you can put out a surreal amount of damage against poor armour saves (which Tzeentch generally has). In terms of reach you have pigs moving twice with Might D, shooting from your Arrow Boys and Breath of Gorkamorka on your Savage Orruks / Arrow Boys. So you can set up your screens and happily go first or second in most matchups. You can even switch gears to make the Savage Orruks a proper tarpit (4+ save rerolling 1s with a 6++) if you need to, so that's quite a lot of flexibility from a small amount of buffing Heroes. And although your Wizards can be +1 to cast and rerolling, you aren't too exposed to buffed unbinding, because most of your buffs just happen regardless (Mighty D, Waaaghs x2, Wardokk dance, Warchanter fun times). Its great weaknesses are essentially unkillable stuff, so in the current meta I'm thinking OBR and Hermdar. You might have some play against OBR if your opponent makes mistakes, but you'll struggle to do much to fights-first Slayers realistically. What do you reckon? Would this go ok against Tzeentch, or is it a house of cards?

Yep, can confirm my man @Garuun smashed my Bonesplitterz with this army! Although they are very similar lists, we did arrive at them separately, and I think this one is probably the better version.

Hey @Chase, I've been focussing more on pure Bonesplitterz recently, but I'm about to jump back into Big Waaagh. I've been trying to build lists that incorporate an Ardfist into the BW, but I can't quite make it work. If you can square the circle between that style of build, and the Foot Megaboss with Pebbles style, I'm interested to see it! I did play against a list at the weekend that was very, very similar to my "New Toys Revised" list, but with a couple of tweaks. Essentially it swapped the Orruks, Ardboys and BWV for 30x Savage Orruks with Spears. It was probably better for the change imo, so you could do worse than look at that I think.

Ave aqtue vale

Well there's $360 down the drain. Wonderful. 😥

Have you been running yours @DestructionFranz? How's it going? Yeah she doesn't feel like a 540 point model. Especially since the keywords limit her to Mixed only, which is (presumably intentionally) more and more marginalised. I dunno, 460 and give her the Hero keyword? What faction keyword(s) would you give her?

Yeah if I was a gambling man, I'd bet good money that the best-selling FW kits in the AOS era were the Mourngul and Sayl the Faithless, back when Mixed lists were king, and thanks largely to their excellent rules. Fundamentally, FW has not continued to develop its warscrolls and failed to keep pace with the overarching trend of Mixed lists being pushed aside for Allegiance lists. Which is a crying shame, because uploading an updated PDF should be very achievable. I do hope the Rogue Idol has sold bucketloads to reward the updated keywords it received. I'd have loved to see the Dread Maw receive a cheeky Maw Tribes keyword, but unfortunately this amazing model seems to be on the "set up to fail" pile with much else in the range. I'm really concerned that the money I've pumped in to things like that and the Magma Dragon in good faith will not be honoured.

Agreed, if it was just the Ardfist that was squeezing them out, you'd see Brutes being taken in the Ironfist. Fact is that they are also squeezed out by Ardboyz and Gore Gruntas in Ironfist too. They are way too similar in their damage output to both of their competitors, and worse in other key ways (bravery, objective scoring and speed). They needed some kind of unique hook in combat to make up for their crippling shortfalls in other areas, but they didn't get it (in fact they had their rend -2 taken away). It ends up being like a 40K comparison, where one is just better. There's not really that much in it, and it's certainly close enough that if you want to make them work you can do so, but you'd probably be taking them because you want to take them.

I'm also very nervous about my expensive and nicely-painted Dread Maw and Magma Dragon at this point.

Yep - and why not allow Monsters of Destruction as Allies in any army? GA armies are almost phased out at this point. I added a Basilisk to my cart 2 years ago, then removed it when I realised they were no longer Allies for Bonesplitterz. (Effectively) not being able to use FW models in Matched Play was setting them up to fail, whether deliberately or accidentally. Sad that the Basilisk has gone, because it's a sweet model and a cool Warscroll, which was unfortunately shafted by being frozen out of army composition in GH18 onwards. I've bought loads of FW products, but GW made it way too hard to justify this one. A real shame.

No Tiki mask, but it's a sweet model: https://mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_blg_bnl_cha_050_000