swarmofseals

August 9, 2021

Just got my first game in with the necromancer list. I went with 40/40/20 zombies, one corpse cart of each flavor and 3 necros. Managed a solid win against deepkin on The Vice.

It's not an easy list to play as you have to be very mindful of positioning for the next hero phase. The magic was very good though. When things came down to it in the middle the enemy had to deal with a lot of debuffs.

I'm going to try a variation with 40/20/20 zombies, dropping the balefire cart in favor of a third unit of Blood Knights.

August 7, 2021

3 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

One model I havent tested in game is Radukar. I keep finding ways to push him out my lists. But when i considee you can get Radukar, Necro and 10x Wolves (for a CP) vs a VLOZD, the decision seems pretty tough. I wish Radukar had a little more dmg but his buff being 18 inches is really nice for 40xman zombies.

Have people had a lot of success with him? I was took the list ive been playing and swapped out my VLOZD.

Legion of Night

Mannfred von Carstein (380)
Radukar the Beast (315)
Necromancer (125)
Necromancer (125)
Gorslav the Gravekeeper (75)
UNITS
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
20 x Grave Guard (280)

TOTAL: 1990/2000 WOUNDS: 181

I've used Radukar in most of my lists with some of each version. He's defensively efficient for a hero even if you don't count the summons, and the wolf version is quite hard to kill if you take some nightguard. I've had Lumineth opponents really have to focus fire to take him out. When he connects his command ability wins games, particularly with zombies, and the 18" radius is huge.

One thing I will say is that you need to be mindful of positioning and really think about where you are going when you make charge moves. I've had at least one or two games where I charged with a different unit only to make the charge with Radukar MUCH more difficult.

August 7, 2021

3 hours ago, Arathorn185 said:

Hey guys simple question does CoS have ang way to ger a move 8+ Character character with is legal for retinues and adjuncts?

Knight-Azyros

August 7, 2021

2 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys sorry if this question is not about SBG , i had a game today, in my turn I used all out attack on my 5 BK in battleround 2. After in the same round , in my oppo turn I decided to give them all out defence. My oppo said i could because I gave all out attack in combat phase. But it was MY combat phase. Could i do it or my oppo did right? Thx all guys

I think there are a bunch of typos in this post, but I think what you are saying is this:

You used all out attack during your turn in the combat phase
You tried to use all out defense in your opponent's turn (same battle round) in the combat phase
Your opponent told you that you can't do this

If this is a correct parsing of what you were saying, then your opponent is definitely wrong. A unit can't issue or receive a command more than once in the same phase of a turn, but what you are describing is happening in different phases. Your opponent's combat phase is a different phase from your own combat phase, even in the same battle round.

He is correct that you can't use the same command ability more than once in a phase. But you can use all out defence/attack in both your shooting and combat phases in the same turn, or in both the combat phase in your turn and the combat phase of your opponent's turn.

August 5, 2021

@Warbossironteef

Just a few more thoughts on your list:

I kinda want to drop 20 Zombies and Gorslav for a third Necromancer and... something. Maybe Fell Bats or a second Corpse Cart (either version)? Swap Fading Vigor off Mannfred in favor of Soul Harvest and give the third Necromancer Fading Vigor and Levitate. Levitate shouldn't be too hard to cast with the +3 and will be really nice on a unit of Blood Knights. It lets them sprinkle mortals on heroes and big guys when retreating and will help them position much more effectively.

August 4, 2021

18 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

Just playing around with Legion of Night, but you can do some fun things and sort of build your own Nagash inside the army. The lore of the Deathmages has some incredible defensive spells. This list can get it's casters to +3 to cast. It's got tons of board control but would struggle to kill tough units. That said, it would be super grindy and hard to kill the 10xBKs when throwing around all these debuffs. I feel like this list would be hard to play in person, especially in time crunch of tournament, but it has some serious casting power to it.

This is a very interesting list! Note that you have one too many troops in your Battle Regiment. Personally I'd want to split one of the 40's into 2 20's to give you some screens but that also bloats the drop count so I'm not sure.

August 2, 2021

@Kaizennus it's a bit off topic but I think the point you raise leads to a very important factor that rarely gets discussed. Variations like the one you describe can have a profound impact on play experience, and yet it rarely gets discussed or acknowledged. We tend to talk about our play experiences as universal when they are often anything but.

Most of the time tournaments have preset tables, so I rather imagine this will continue. Although some tournaments may have the players set up, which will create a very different experience.

Personally I mostly play on TTS on the DeinoK table which has a variety of preset terrain layouts. Of those I generally only use a few as some of them are very awkward. But overall they tend to be symmetrical. Sometimes the terrain needs to be moved around a bit to account for the objectives in the specific battleplan, but even then I try to keep it symmetrical and avoid both excessive open space and excessive clutter. I think trying to game the terrain setup should be heavily frowned upon.

August 2, 2021

5 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

I really like running the two dragons together for flavour and fun, but have considered replacing Vhordrai with Manfred. Do you think that would be a good option?

Thanks.

I should have been clear that my post was strictly taking a competitive perspective. If you enjoy running double dragon lists for other reasons by all means do that! Swapping Vhordrai for Mannfred could work, as could swapping the regular VLoZD for Mannfred.

1 hour ago, Kaizennus said:

First off, awesome write up and thanks for all the effort in working out the math.

All I can really add is from my experience with 3rd edition so far (as SBG). Personally I've found BK to be really lackluster in actual gameplay due to two things: 1) they are super vulnerable to mortals (ex: Lumineth shooting or offensive magic) 2) with the smaller board space and the suggested 8 pieces of terrain you basically never get all 5 BK into combat.

The second part is IMO the biggest issue because the MW thing depends on who you play against. But I've found the board is really cramped for cavalry units like BK. If they had a 2" reach it would be a different story, but on average I'm only getting 3 BK into combat. Against armies with high MW I'm also usually losing 1-2 models on average before they even get into combat so again, you're usually only attacking with 2-3 models (in my experience).

Being able to retreat from combat for free is really their biggest advantage in my experience. Even the trample mechanic, while cute, doesn't seem to happen very often because it can be played around and again, the smaller board makes it hard to finish outside of 3" sometimes.

I'm definitely interested in seeing them work, and I think the idea that 2 BK might outperform a VLoZD is actually pretty intriguing and something I'd be interested in trying out.

That's an interesting point regarding terrain. I suspect it will vary a lot from table to table and matchup to matchup. Overall though I've been finding flying to be somewhat less of a boon in this edition previously as it's hard to avoid landing on terrain at times, which requires a diagonal move, thus significantly reducing flying mobility. I've been playing mostly on TTS with a pretty large volume of terrain and haven't had too much trouble so far, although I've largely been playing high body count zombie lists. I'll need to see how it goes with BKs. Generally though with terrain having to be >3" from objectives and >6" from each other there should be a fair amount of open space, particularly around objectives.

The mortal wound thing is a problem for sure and is one of the reasons why I think the mixed Zombie/BK list is attractive. Zombies are efficient vs. mortals and high rend while BKs are efficient vs low rend. If we're just talking about the big bruiser heroes vs. BKs though I'd argue that stuff like the VLoZD and Vengorian Lord suffer even more against high mortal wound shooting than BKs do.

Vs. ranged mortals I definitely don't expect to hit the enemy line intact. But the nice thing about having 4-6 units of BKs is that even if two get annihilated by shooting, when the rest hit the enemy line they should do a huge amount of damage.

As far as the trample mechanic goes, you can move them just over the models they are currently fighting and then back 3". Unless your BKs are actually surrounded that should be easy to pull off. Nothing about the rule requires you to go all the way through the enemy unit -- you just have to move in such a way as to pass over the enemy models at some point during the move. People do this with endless spells all the time, clipping one unit and then moving backwards to hit something else.

Regardless though I do agree that actual battlefield conditions will make a big difference and it's going to require some real testing.

August 1, 2021

4 hours ago, mmimzie said:

The only thing i'd say is hit'em hard will still matter if you can kill archaeon or go'trek.

One benefit VLoZD and i guess vhordrai have have is that they over the beast is that they are also monsters and can use the monster actions.

For rousing command the coven throne isn't to bad... With 4 or 5 units buffed and it's command ability (stacking quite well with the the rousing command increase the buffs .WOR as you call it.)

I also think the bloodseeker has some value. bringing a strong buff like unholy impetus on the warscroll, This can be used in conjunction with rousing command. Also it's ranged attack put you in a place where you want to put the model some where quite central.

I think the idea of the two ghost ships is the most effective first turn possible.

Personally I don't think Soulblight has any build that will want to take on Gotrek or Archaon directly. The big heroes are totally incapable of dealing with these two in melee and monster heroes are a particularly large liability against Archaon. Much better to have a lot of effective units on the table and try to play around them.

Agree re: the monster thing, although I don't think this does nearly enough to close the gap.

I'd be really shocked if you can reliably get 4-5 units of Blood Knights both in combat and wholly within 12" of a Coven Throne (or any other hero).

Sadly you can't take both Unholy Impetus and Rousing Commander as they are both command traits and they belong to different bloodlines.

I do like Mortis Engines more than most, but I think they are kinda contrary to the strategy I'm going for as they are both defensively inefficient and only count as 2 for capping. I would love to see people trying to make them work in other lists though. I also tend to think that Soulblight is not going to do much on turn 1 in most games unless going second against a very aggressive opponent. I'm OK with that, and would prefer to try for maximum impact on turns 2 and 3.

5 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Nice write up, thanks for the effort and will definitely give it another read to fully digest.

I'd like to ask if you can include Nagash in your calculations - offering his command ability plus the god model status, you can still bring 4 units of blood knights along side him plus a rousing commander carrying foot vampire.

Similarly how does Vhordrai compare to two units of Blood Knights, rather than just the vanilla VLoZD? Extra attack, extra rend, extra healing, great self buffing spell, mortals for his breath attack.

I've played quite a bit with Nagash, although not in a BK list. I didn't bother calculating his buff simply because it's damage impact isn't that high, particularly relative to Nagash's cost. If you're curious though it adds .004 WOR per target. God lists definitely are their own thing, and their gameplan revolves around having a nigh-unkillable centerpiece. Nagash plays well against Monster Mash because he's so hard to bully and the efficiency gap isn't nearly so bad (especially if you can Hand of Dust big things), but against wide lists Nagash is going to have problems.

Vhordrai has a WOR of .056 unbuffed and .09 with Quickblood. His defensive efficiency is a bit lower than a regular VLoZD, but that doesn't account for the extra healing. So overall Vhordrai is still about a quarter less efficient than BKs with Quickblood active and less than half as efficient without Quickblood. Given how unreliable Quickblood is I probably wouldn't consider him in this kind of list.

4 hours ago, Iron Fist said:

Thank you

Any advice for a 120 zombies horde list?

Check the last few pages, there's been some discussion of zombie heavy lists.

August 1, 2021

I've been trying to explore a lot of different Soulblight variations, so far focusing on Nagash and zombie apocalypse lists. Most people seem to be pushing character heavy lists, but I'd like to propose a different direction focusing on maximizing efficiency.

To begin, I'd like to illustrate the efficiency gap between Blood Knights and the Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon. Math ahead:

Spoiler

Two units of Blood Knights, charging:

28.44 rend 1 damage
7.4 rend 0 damage
84.38 expected wounds assuming an average incoming rend of .75 with Deathless Minions, 67.5 without
Cost: 390 points

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, charging:

8.83 rend 2 (12.38 with Sangsyron)
4.66 rend 1
37.8 expected wounds assuming an average incoming rend of .75 with Deathless Minions
Cost: 435 points

Overall damage comparison (BK, Sangsyron, VLoZD base kit)

vs. - : 35.84/17.04/13.49
vs. 6+: 34.6/17.04/13.49
vs. 5+: 28.63/16.26/12.71
vs 4+: 22.66/13.42/10.47
vs 3+: 16.69/10.58/8.21
vs 2+: 10.71/7.74/5.97
vs 2+ +1: 5.97/4.9/3.72
vs 2+ +2: 5.97/2.48/2.25

Despite being cheaper, the Blood Knights vastly outperform in every category the minimum damage difference is +60% vs. vanilla VLoZD and +22% vs. Sangsyron. The maximum difference is +166% vs. vanilla and +110% vs. vanilla. Defensively, the Blood Knights have +123% more weighted effective wounds with Deathless Minions and +79% more without.

Of course, the VLoZD does have advantages: it's faster until it takes quite a bit of damage, can heal and perform heroic actions, shoot a little, and is a monster. But that gets counterbalanced some against the Blood Knights being able to "retreat" and charge and sprinkle mortal wounds in the process.

The Blood Knights also scale equal better off of nearly every buff. +1 Damage to rider weapons and +1 Attack all scale the Blood Knights better than the VLoZD. Bonuses to hit and would and exploding 6's are roughly equivalent.

The VLoZD clearly has better activation efficiency, but I'm not sure that this is as much of a benefit in 3.0 as it was in 2.0. I know people are still in the mindset of "hit as hard as possible with one thing, charging with more just gives your opponent the opportunity to swing back," but I think people haven't fully absorbed how the new command abilities change the dynamic. If you charge one enemy unit, your opponent gets to use all-out defense to significantly soften the blow. If you charge multiple enemy units, your opponent has to pick where to use AOD, and the thing they don't pick is going to get hit a lot harder. So now it's a lot more attractive to charge multiple targets, particularly if you can charge with at least one more unit than your opponent has in combat. If you charge 3 into your opponent's 2, your opponent can soften the blow on one thing and then you use AOD on whatever they choose to strike first on, thus allowing you to get two activations against a soft target to your opponent's 1 (and that 1 being with a damaged unit at that). Hitting multiple targets also carries the benefit of pressuring battleshock, which is a real thing in 3.0.

So in the end I see lists running one or more dragons and can't help but wonder if they wouldn't be better off running more and more Blood Knights instead.

So what heroes might a Blood Knights focused list want to run? None of the options are at all competitive with BKs for actual combat efficiency, but how much value do buffs add? Let's explore it (more math!):

Spoiler

Here's the % increase in damage output achieved by various buffs along with the absolute rend weighted damage output increase per unit of BKs buffed:

+1 Hit OR Wound: 26.4%, +5.98

+1 Hit AND Wound: 60%, +13.6

+1 Damage to riders: 42%, +9.52

+1 Attack: 33.3%, +7.55

Exploding 6's: 26.4%, +5.98

Units that can buff BK's include: Belladamma, Radukar, Mannfred, Vengorian Lord, Coven Throne, any non unique hero (Rousing Commander, Sword of the Red Seneschals, Unholy Impetus)

Of the non-unique heroes, I don't think it's worth considering the regular Vampire Lord as it's so easy to snipe. The Vengorian Lord, Coven Throne, and VLoZD are worth considering as they can all keep up with Blood Knights relatively well. A Necromancer is also worth considering because it's cheap and might have additional usefulness, but one must keep in mind that keeping in buff range will be MUCH harder.

Lets look at a ton more math on these options. What I'm going to try to do here is calculate the total combat value provided by different options between their innate combat ability and the value of the buffs they provide.

Spoiler

NOTE: One unit of charging Blood Knights unbuffed has a weighted offensive value of 22.67 at a cost of 195 points, for a WOR (weighted offensive rating) of .116.

Belladamma is mostly being taken for her casting profile, but her exploding 6's buffs does provide .03 WOR per target.
Radukar the Wolf alone has a base WOR of .047 (self buffed) and provides an additional .05 WOR per buffed target.
Radukar the Wolf plus bodyguard has a base WOR of .068 (self buffed) and provides an additional .031 WOR per buffed target
Radukar the Beast has a base WOR of .084 (self buffed, includes summoned Dire Wolves but does not assume they are buffed) and provides an additional .024 WOR per buffed target
Mannfred has a base WOR of .07 (self buffed) and provides an additional .036 WOR per buffed target.
A Vengorian Lord (Clotted Deluge) has a base WOR of .046 (self buffed) and provides an additional .021 WOR per buffed target. Unholy Impetus adds an additional .027 WOR per buffed target. Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .06 (self buffed) and adds an additional .034 WOR per buffed target.
A Coven Throne has a base WOR of .031 and provides an additional .044 WOR from its buff. Sword of the Red Seneschals adds .019 WOR per target, Unholy Impetus adds .024 WOR per target, and Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .048 and adds .031 WOR per target
A VLoZD has a base WOR of .048. Sword of the Red Seneschals adds .014 WOR per target, Unholy Impetus adds .017 WOR per target, and Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .053 and .022 WOR per target.
A Necromancer is mostly being taken for casting, and is unlikely to be able to get Unholy Impetus or Sword of the Red Seneschals to work, but Rousing Commander adds .076 WOR per target.

A few conclusions from this:

Both versions of Radukar are good bets to be offensively "profitable" at least the turn they charge. As long as you're buffing two units of Blood Knights with the command ability (which should be easy given the 18" radius), you're getting more WOR than you would if you had invested the points in more BK alone. Furthermore, these options aren't actually bad on defense either. Radukar the Beast + his wolves has a defensive efficiency of .16 (albeit at the cost of a CP), and Radukar the Wolf with 2 Nightguard has a defensive efficiency of .118. Blood Knights have a defensive efficiency of .207, so you're giving up some defense but less than in comparison to most heroes.

Mannfred is pretty easy to make profitable as well. If he can buff two targets (which isn't trivial but should be doable pretty often) he'll exceed the WOR value of pure BK. He also has the benefit of being a 2 wizard and a monster hero along with superlative mobility. His defensive profile is a bit hard to pin down due to uncertainty around how many woulds his armor will negate. At minimum he's just below half efficiency compared to BK, but at just 3-4 wounds negated he starts pulling even with Radukar the Wolf.

The Vengorian Lord can plausibly break even or exceed on WOR but it's not easy. With Rousing Commander plus either his spell going off or Sword of the Red Seneschals, all hitting two targets he's solidly in the black. But with RC being a once per game thing he's going to have a tough time breaking even most of the time. Defensively he's OK, particularly in melee, and he has the benefit of being a monster hero.

The Coven Throne lags pretty far behind except when using Rousing Commander, which when combined with the command ability gives us an easy total WOR of .154 with something getting +1 save in addition. But again, that's once a game. It's not going to be easy to make Sword of the Red Seneschals work here at all, so Fragment of the Keep is a more likely artefact choice. I could see this as an option that is more oriented toward providing defense with a splash of offense. That +1 save is worth a bit under half a unit of Blood Knights in defensive efficiency, assuming the enemy actually attacks the buffed unit.

The VLoZD does just a hair better than breaking even with both Rousing Commander and SoRS buffing two targets, so I don't think this one is going to get there based on efficiency, especially given that it is far behind on defensive efficiency.

If you can actually manage to buff two things with Rousing Commander on a Necromancer you're getting well ahead that turn, but it's going to have a hard time using an artefact effectively except for possibly the Grave-sand Shard.

Belladamma isn't going to get there on offense, so if you take her you are doing it for her magic prowess. That said, I'm not really sold on Belladamma in this kind of list. She's very helpful against shooting, but I don't think shooting armies are going to be particularly problematic for a list that is just spamming bodies that are efficient on both offense and defense and are reasonably fast. Furthermore, to make her reliable as a caster requires significant extra investment.

Overall, I think the two heroes that are clearly at the top of the pile are Mannfred and Radukar (either version). The Vengorian Lord and Coven Throne could both work but are pretty marginal and clearly behind the two unique heroes. The VLoZD is substantially worse, and I don't think Beladamma makes much sense for the reasons mentioned above. The Necromancer is a bit of a wild card.

So that leads me to the question: could it really be optimal to just forego a command trait and artefact? I really think it might, depending on the list. Mannfred and Radukar both are just better than what the trait and artefact provide on any hero for this kind of list, so it only makes sense to dip to a non-unique hero if you're already taking Mannfred and Radukar. I suppose a hero package of Mannfred, Radukar the Wolf and a Vengorian Lord (810 points or 905 if you take nightguard) could make some sense, but that's really more points than I'd want to be spending on heroes. Mannfred and Radukar the Beast is a more palatable 695, or wolf at 530/625 depending on nightguard.

As far as subfactions go, I think it's pretty clearly between Kastelai and Legion of Night. I get that Vyrkos can build a very strong VLoZD with Hunter's Snare and either amulet or Sangsyron, but I wonder if that is a trap.

Kastelai has the benefits of an easier grand strategy, better performance on battleplans that care about battleline units for scoring, and the uncertain value of Might of the Crimson Keep. I think figuring out how useful that last one is will take a lot of test games.

Legion of Night has the benefits of redundant generals and an easier path to actually resolving spells through a Necromancer carrying Morbheg's Claw. But you'll need three battleline units that aren't Blood Knights (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as having some blocks of zombies could be useful for counterbalancing the otherwise low model count for objectives.

Here's a few lists:

Basic Kastelai

Spoiler

Mannfred

Radukar the Beast

6x5 Blood Knights

1x10 Dire Wolves

Probably Battle Regiment + Hunters of the Heartlands or 2 Battle Regiment

52 models, 384.53 weighted effective wounds

Kastelai with bats + zombies

Spoiler

Mannfred

Radukar the Beast

5x5 Blood Knights

1x3 Fell Bats

1x40 Zombies

Again probably Battle Regiment + Hunters of the Heartlands or 2 Battle Regiment

80 models, 371.1 weighted effective wounds

Go Wide

Spoiler

Mannfred

Radukar the Wolf

Necromancer

4x5 Blood Knights

2x40 Deadwalker Zombies (or 1x40, 2x20)

1x2 Kosargi Night Guard

Can be Legion of Night or Kastelai. Lots of battalion possibilities, but Battle Regiment + Hunters or Battle Regiment + Vanguard or double Battle Regiment probably best.

105 models, 335.1 weighted effective wounds

The first list is just crazy raw efficiency. The damage potential is very high and the effective wound count is insane, but the body count is relatively low.

The second list is like the first list but compromises effective wounds slightly for more bodies.

The third list has significantly fewer effective wounds but a ton more bodies and it can also potentially be Legion of Night to leverage Mannfred and a Necromancer into legitimate casting threats with Morbheg's claw. The gain in defensive efficiency from Mystic Shield, Overwhelming Dread and/or Fading Vigor could easily offset the loss of effective wounds. Mannfred, Radukar and the Necromancer all are crazy good at scaling the zombies up if the opponent focuses too hard on the Blood Knights.

Perhaps more later.

July 30, 2021

14 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

Sangsyron? 😅

Vyrkos artefact that gives +d3 attacks on the charge. It's probably the most common offensive artefact choice for the VLoZD.

July 30, 2021

@TechnoVampire

If using no melee boosting artefacts or spells, the lance adds 4.12 weighted damage contribution over the sword on the charge, while the sword adds 1.18 weighted damage contribution over the lance when not charging. So as long as you are charging one activation out of four you're still ahead with the lance.

With Sangsyron the numbers increase to 7.66 for the lance when charging but stay at 1.18 for the sword when not charging, so with Sangsyron you are still coming out ahead as long as you are charging at least one activation out of seven.

July 29, 2021

@TechnoVampire Personally I've found that hero phase fight activations are very difficult to rely on. You basically have to have already gone through at least one and sometimes two rounds of melee with something before you get to activate in the hero phase. Either you charge in your turn, the enemy survives, and then you get the double turn, or your opponent charges you during their turn, both your hero and their unit survive and you get the next turn. Any other scenario requires two full rounds of melee before you get to your hero phase.

July 29, 2021

3 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

Last time I'll post a list on here for awhile but I think after a few games I've finally fine tuned a decent version of Zombie list. We all know how important Necromancer's spell is and I've found without support it doesn't go off. Legion of Night helps with this and also offers some additional utility with Unholy Impetus.

You could also remove Gorslav and lean more into Skellies and additional GG but I just dont have those models. I think this is a all around solid Zombie list if anyone else is looking to bring 100+ zombies. I wish the Unholy Impetus was a bigger range so it may not always work out but I'm interested to try it. The other attack buffing pieces in the book I'm not a fan of, regular Vamp Lord on foot being one of them.

LEADERS
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Command Entourage
- General
- Command Trait: Unholy Impetus
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380) in Battle Regiment
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Necromancer (125) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Morbheg's Claw
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Gorslav the Gravekeeper (75) in Command Entourage
UNITS
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
20 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment
- Great Wight Blades
TOTAL: 1985/2000

On 7/27/2021 at 10:54 AM, Warbossironteef said:

The only thing about your list is I don't like spamming Zombies as much with Nagash as I do in other lists. I think units like Skellies, Direwolves and GG are more cost efficient with Nagash because they actually benefit from reroll 1 of saves and the reroll to hit. Zombies dont. That said, 40 battleshock Zombies are not bad for 230 I just think other units pair better with Nagash.

I would look to at least bring 30 Skellies or 20 GG.

A fair point re: Nagash. My logic running so many zombies is that the main weakness of god type lists are the lack of bodies, and Zombies+Nagash are a great way to have a dominating model on the table while still having a numbers advantage against your opponents for the objective game. Zombies do benefit from the reroll to hit quite a bit, although your point re: saves is fair. I think they benefit more from battleshock immunity than the other units you mentioned except possibly skeletons. That said they do still die very quickly, so I could definitely see the benefit of bringing in some skeletons. The problems that I see with this are twofold. For one, the points are very tight, so switching to skeletons would mean taking 20 zombies, 10 skellies, and 30 skellies instead of 20/20/40 zombies, thus losing 20 bodies. Secondly, Radukar doesn't work nearly as well with skeletons. Skellies are completely pillowfisted even when buffed to two attacks, whereas Zombies can actually start to become a threat with two attacks (.086 offensive efficiency for skellies with 2 attacks vs .145 for zombies). Dropping Radukar could solve the points problem, but it leaves the list a lot less pointy. I could see an argument for dropping Radukar and 40 zombies and replacing them with 30 skeletons and 20 grave guard. Now you're maintaining parity on bodies (losing only 1 when factoring in the summoned dire wolves).

Total weighted offense of the Radukar package is 38.49 when not charging and 66.54 when charging. Total weighted offense of the bones package is 56.74.

Total weighted defense of the Radukar package is 113.7. Total weighted defense of the bones package is 76.5.

This math does not factor in the additional CP cost inherent in the Radukar package or the CP cost when charging (or the possibility of units outside the package benefiting from Radukar's CA). It also doesn't factor in any new zombies or skeletons returned, which is a factor that pretty significantly benefits the bones package in many matchups.

Overall I think both versions merit testing.

____________________________

As far as your zombie list goes I ran something somewhat similar. I didn't run the VLoZD or Grave Guard and instead ran lil Radukar, Torgilius, 2 nightguard, 5 Blood Knights and 140 total Zombies (3x40 and 1x20). I only have one game in with that list though, but it was a solid win against Lumineth with Teclis, 40 sentinels and 40 wardens. I think some flavor of Radukar is really key in any Zombie list as he scales them so, so well.

July 26, 2021

On 7/22/2021 at 3:43 PM, Obeisance said:

The hell does Soulblight DO against a monster like that? Tarpit?

The same thing every other list does: keep it away from your critical stuff and try to kill everything else/win on objectives.

I don't know that there is any army out there that can reliably kill Archaon if the Archaon player is careful. Just try to minimize his damage by zoning him out, retreating during your turn if he is engaged etc.

On 7/25/2021 at 8:33 AM, Warbossironteef said:

I think that would be a really solid list. I've been thinking about branching out into Nagash as well.

I got some more games in and I can tell you that the necromancer against most armies will not be getting his spell off. Specifically in a Nagash list your opponents, any decent one, will save dispells. Necromancer is cheap and durable but usually fails do anything in my games. It's such a shame he doesn't get the rerolling of Vyrkos.

The best thing about him is he is cheap and can use Pack Alpha, which is amazing. That said, i think a different version of your Nagash list has legs too. I really like Bella with Nagash because she can help disrupte some shooting armies. Also, Direwolves are good substitutes for 30x skellies. They get to a 4+ rerolling 1s, are faster, 10 more wounds and can fight better. That said the new coherency rules make positioning more challenging, but not impossible.

Seems crazy to forgo a artefact and Command trait but Bella is so much better than Necromancer I dont think it matters. I also went with BKs over GG because they are faster, tougher and much more independent.

Just figured I share some other Nagash ideas! I love the idea of Necro and Skellies plus GG, but his spell is just so freaking unreliable and those units really need the buffs.

Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (970) in Battle Regiment
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
UNITS
20 x Dire Wolves (270)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
TOTAL: 1995/2000

I've been getting in some reps with Nagash and enjoying it a lot. So far I have used two builds:

Build 1:

Spoiler

Vyrkos Dynasty

Nagash

Necromancer (general, pack alpha, amulet, overwhelming dread)

Radukar the Wolf (pinions)

2 Kosargi Nightguard

2x40 Zombies

1x20 Zombies

Spellportal

1 Drop Battle Regiment

Build 2:

Spoiler

Legion of Night

Nagash

Necromancer (general, Master of Magic, Morbheg's Claw, Levitate)

Radukar the Beast

2x20 Zombies

1x40 Zombies

Spellportal

Lifeswarm

2 Drop Battle Regiment

This can alternately be built with lil Raddie and either 2 nightguard and 3 bats or 4 nightguard as a 1 drop

I found that you're 100% correct about the Necromancer in Vyrkos. Vanhels very rarely resolved. I also even ran into some issues with Nagash against heavy anti-magic like Seraphon. If he gets bracketed down to +2 or even +1 to cast it's very hard for him to recover, and this really limits your tactical flexibility.

With the Vyrkos build I was typically swimming in CP and rarely if ever ran out. I've only gotten one game in with the second list so far but when going first in a battle round it was definitely a bit constraining (particularly the first round where you want to use Nagash's CA and Radukar's summon.

The Legion of Night version gives you a MUCH better chance of resolving Vanhels and can even help Nagash out against heavy anti magic/bracketing. I hate losing Pack Alpha, but I think it might be worth it.

Just cobbled together a solid victory against Idoneth in which I miscast on Nagash on his second spell on turn 1 and then got double turned 1->2 XD.

Overall I'm not super sold on Belladamma in a Nagash list. I'm just not afraid of shooting against Nagash except a Lumineth list that is bringing a lot of sentinels, and Belladamma doesn't help so much against that given the 4+ spell ignore and 5+ ward. Most shooting is rend 1 at best, which is easy to negate with All out Defense. You can even ignore rend 2 once per game with Finest Hour. Even a double volley from Morathi Stalkers is only 5 mortal wounds on average. Very easy to heal through.

July 26, 2021

I've added data from a big 74 person tournament on TTS that is scheduled to start soon. There are a lot of recognizable names playing, both from the international tournament scene as well as TTS regulars. I'd say this is probably the most competitive of the tournaments that I've compiled for this thread.

Overall the metagame is shaping up and some emerging themes are clear:

Monster mash lists are very popular. You should be prepared to face things like Sons of Behemat with 3-4 megas, Ogor Mawtribes with multiple stonehorns, Soulblight double dragon or dragon/mortarch, and Seraphon Thunder Lizard lists. You'll also occasionally face Nagash or Archaon.

Shooting lists are not as prevalent as many have feared. There are some KO lists and Cities lists with a fair amount of shooting, but perhaps the most common shooty build is DoK's Morathi + 15 Blood Stalkers. Lumineth also tends to feature a fair amount of shooting, either from sentinels, wind spirits or both.

Seraphon is the most played faction thus far, but the faction is shaping up very differently from the past. While there are a few lists that are more skink focused, many if not most lists aren't even running Kroak. The most common lists involve a Slann Starmaster and a nice array of monsters. It's one of the few factions that is throwing a lot of monsters that aren't super tough.

July 20, 2021

19 hours ago, Craze said:

I had a game yesterday against StD with my list mentioned a couple of pages ago. I now have one question: What role do you use Zombies for? To be honest for me they felt REALLY underwhelming: They have ZERO punch and also ZERO staying power, so I cannot even use them as reliable objective holders, they just felt really really underwhelming.

Statistically they are pretty average on offense and a little above average on defense for their cost (not counting their ability to add new models). They scale extremely well with bonus attacks though, so support from Mannfred, a Vampire Lord, or Radukar turns them into legit killers for their cost (and if you get Vanhels that's a multiplicative bonus). They also deal mortal wounds which nicely complements other hammers which mostly deal rend 1. Their profile is perfectly suited to dealing with enemies that are heavily armored and deal rendy or mortal damage. Against such targets they will be very efficient.

Others have already mentioned the gravesite and pile-in shenanigans.

They are also really good in a Nagash list which lets you ignore battleshock and helps counterbalance the lack of numbers. I had two blocks of 40 tie down and eventually destroy Teclis and a block of 20 Vanari Auralan Wardens.

________________________

@Kaizennus it'd be helpful to know a bit more about what your opponents are running too. There can be a pretty big variation in Hallowheart lists, and 40 sentinel Zaitrec lists are a very different animal from 20 sentinel lists etc. I assume Zaitrec is running Teclis?

July 18, 2021

2 hours ago, Laststand said:

I've never really understood the facination with bretonnians. The hook is knights in shining armour and thats it. They seem so bland an idea when compared to all the other weird and wonderful stuff. If they ever did return I imagine their legacy fans wont be happy as GW will have to change them quite a bit so they produce some unique intellectual property. Whether you hate skaven and chaos dwarfs or not you cant deny they have character.

I can't speak to others, but for me there are a couple of factors that make me like Bretonnians in addition to some of the things already mentioned upthread.

They are one of the few armies where you can really paint each model in a very different way and still have it look great. There are also some really awesome sculpts. The Green Knight is a timeless classic, and the 6th edition Questing Knights are so full of character.
They have a nostalgia factor. I first thought that my introduction to the hobby was through the free model that I got with my copy of the Dark Omen PC game, but then I realized I had already been primed by HeroQuest and Battlemasters (not realizing those were GW games at the time). And then I realized that this too isn't quite right. When I was young kid I loved collecting those little pre-painted plastic knights that had small grey weapons that you could pop in and out of their hands. I would make mock battles with them and such, of course. So if I'm truly honest, those classic figs were my origin in the hobby, and Bretonnians have that similar feel to them.

July 17, 2021

@KingBrodd seriously congrats! But given that this is the rumor thread shouldn't you have PM'ed the news to @Whitefang and let him leak it? 😆

July 17, 2021

8 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

That said I think its an edge case, but Lumineth is likely the Paper to our Rock. Unless you just flood the board with chaff

Based on a lot of experience playing against Lumineth in general (including a little vs Lumineth with Soulblight in 3.0) I don't think this is true. There are certain builds of Lumineth that will be good against certain builds of Soulblight, I totally agree with that, but I don't think it's a bad matchup in general.

In the scenario you describe the other guy almost certainly isn't running Teclis, which means you have a much better chance of shutting down his magic, and if you cast spellportal first he won't be able to dispel it and then recast it during his turn.

One thing to consider about Lumineth (particularly Teclis lists) is that they struggle with battle tactics more than most factions. That can make a huge difference in many battleplans.

Teclis lists are also awkward in that they really need to castle around Teclis to maintain their ward save, spell shrug and casting bonus. It can often be difficult for them to bring all of their ranged firepower to bear on a single target while also staying in range of Teclis. This is particularly true of you play with a decent amount of scenery (not because of LOS blocking but because it gets in the way of movement).

Less hero heavy builds can really pose problems for Lumineth (particularly Teclis lists). I don't think you necessarily need to flood the board with chaff though. Something like 20-30 Blood Knights is really going to give Lumineth fits, particularly when supported by some cheap fast units like Fell Bats or by Belladamma.

If you are playing something like a double dragon list then yeah, I think Lumineth could be a hard matchup.

July 16, 2021

4 minutes ago, Frowny said:

With the heroic actions healing 2d3 per round and ignoring the first wound sustained shooting is unlikely to kill unless it is one of those already strong shooters. You have to do 5 wounds to just break even, and more if he can ever use the hunger. Chip damage will be a struggle, at least without leaving a lot of the rest of your army intact.

What have people seen actually kill him?

I'm not talking about chip damage, I'm talking about multiple turns of heavy shooting, like the kinds of units that I mentioned in my previous post -- buffed Stormfiends, sentinels, KO stuff, Blood Stalkers, multiple units of salamanders or perhaps even things like Sisters of the Watch or Irondrakes. Even if those units fail to one shot Mannfred, they can easily two shot him. And in practice it doesn't always look like 2d3 healing per round. For example, if you are going first in a battle round and the enemy double turns you that's 2 rounds of shooting (and magic) with you getting only one bite at Heroic Recovery. Also Heroic Recovery heals 1.75 on average, not 2.

I haven't been playing with Mannfred, but I have been playing with Nagash who is quite a bit tougher than Mannfred is. I haven't lost him yet but I have come very close, and Nagash is way more likely to get Mystic Shield than Mannfred is.

He's still ridiculously hard to kill, but the answer to your question is right there: the thing that can kill him is very heavy shooting.

July 16, 2021

1 hour ago, Frowny said:

Question for everyone- has mannfred ever died for any of you and if so how?

My initial read of the book is that he should be basically unkillable with 13 wounds, ignoring the first against him per phase and the ability to avoid any combat he isn't going to win. I am still of the opinion that he is incredible beyond belief in any competitive list but confess i have never played with him-my local store hasn't yet reopened after covid...

I haven't actually gotten any games in with him yet, but yeah is is going to be very difficult if not impossible for most opponents to deal with. The one thing that is realistically going to kill him is very heavy, concentrated shooting.

A unit of 9 Stormfiends with a spark and More-more Warp Power! are only a slight underdog to kill Mannfred in one round of shooting even if Mannfred has +2 to save from various abilities. With only +1 to save Mannfred is *very* likely a dead duck.

A KO boat drop could maybe do the trick, although that's a lot dicier. If Mannfred is fully buffed it's pretty unlikely.

A bunch of Vanari Auralan Sentinels could definitely get it done. 20 units of 20 without Power of Hysh is very unlikely. With Power of Hysh it's still unlikely but definitely possible. With Lambent Light though things change quite a lot. Lambent Light without Power of Hysh is a small underdog to kill Manny in one go, but 50/50 power/no power is a favorite and if both units have power they are a very heavy favorite to kill him in one go.

15 Blood Sisters double shooting are a bit of an underdog to get it done in one go but it's definitely possible, especially if big Morathi takes her shot as well.

Given what I'm seeing in the current meta I think those are the most likely ways for Mannfred to die suddenly. Sustained shooting over two or 3 turns is very likely to do the trick unless you are able to really get your healing going.

July 16, 2021

11 hours ago, Obeisance said:

Go wide?

Yeah, strategies that emphasize troops over heroes. Generally higher model count.

July 16, 2021

1 hour ago, Obeisance said:

That's a totally fair assumption.

I'm assuming that all the best lists are going to be either like, 1-2 flying dumptrucks or insanely high shooting and/or magic.

I'd kinda like Unleash Hell changed to unmodified 6s like 40K. We could also use more obscuring terrain. Lol.

I thought we'd see insanely high shooting at first but I'm becoming more convinced that while there will be some of that in the meta that it won't be super duper common. Go Wide lists are going to be good against both of the archetypes you mention, so it would be really surprising if that playstyle doesn't make big inroads.

July 16, 2021

1 hour ago, Obeisance said:

Regarding grand strategies, I don't see why you'd take anything other than Hold the Line.

Yes, it's "starting" units. I know. But it's like, mass chaff vs anything else. They don't want to waste attacks clearing out your rubbish units knowing they respawn anyway.

As for Prized Sorcery, you're gonna have like 2-3 wizards. Probably one is a dragon, the others pass wounds to chaff. You're relying on them not killing things that are priority targets.

I think the go-to is Hold the Line.

I think this is the kind of question that is going to be heavily dictated by the metagame. In a melee heavy meta Prized Sorcery is going to be relatively more valuable, while in a shooting meta Hold the Line goes up in value.

If you are running Nagash it's definitely Prized Sorcery.

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