ianob

I’ve got a list that I personally feel is the best 2k Nagash list you can run (dependant on what missions your event is running of course), I’ll be talking about it on the podcast this week. Your list is also pretty great and is probably the best I’ve seen posted on this forum so far.

I don’t. I’m not sure under what circumstances that would be a good idea! 15 Black Knights was... challenging with their 1” Melee, thankfully now we have better hammers.

I have literally never in either v1 or v2 not been able to find the space to put a unit of 40 skeletons, 30 Grave Guard, 15 black knights or 30 Grimghasts (the large things I summon regularly). Not even once. I’m not saying it’s never going to happen, it clearly will at some point, but it is incredibly uncommon. Gravesites are either contested (or close enough toncontested that you wouldn’t fit a unit of 10 OR a unit of 30) or defended and usable. It has a lot to do with gravesite placement I think. If it *is* a negative point worth considering, the Grave-space issue certainly doesn’t outweigh max unit size point reductions,drop efficiency, vanhels efficiency, larger units still being on the table to invocation rather than needing to spend a command point to resummon, etc.

First Cohort is basically unplayable. You dont have enough characters to win any character-based missions, you dont have enough units to hold enough table space or objectives for the other kind of missions. You also don't have enough damage output to table people, and even if you did you wouldnt have enough damage output spread across the table to reliably kill enough of your opponents' models to get enough kill points to place anywhere in an event (if we're talking competitive play anyway) Nagash does not have a good damage output. People constantly overestimate how much damage he deals. Nagash needs, at absolute minimum, 1 other spellcaster (preferably a Necro to bring VDM to up your damage output even more) and preferably 2 both to give him enough worthwhile things to cast and to hold objectives in some scenarios. You also need, at minimum, 2 large objective holding units (a common problem I see with Nagash lists is that they only include one big unit and then fill up on Dire Wolves). This doesn't leave you with an awful lot of list options but does make you make a lot of hard decisions. Nagash list building is very interesting, but it definitely does not include battalions. You simply dont have the points for them.

Neither give permission to use Endless Spells or Endless Spell models. The warscroll says nothing about Endless Spells or using Endless Spell models, so that's irrelevant too. You're reaching with your counterarguments here. We're going to have to agree to disagree until we see an FAQ otherwise we're going to go round in circles

Right. But in all instances of spell rules, there is a *completely separate* qualifier for your ability to use or not use an endless spell model. You've just quoted one of them. And since we're in a matched play scenario here, the use of the model specifically requires you to have paid the points for it. There is still nothing here that suggests you can ever cast an endless spell that you didnt pay points for. The Curseling Designers' Commentary does not say that he can do this in matched play. Similarly nothing indicates that other similar abilities can do the same (eg Nagash knowing enemy Death wizards' spells). I don't disagree at all that there is ambiguity here, but let's not pretend that it's clear cut and completely dried that this is allowed. The rules simply don't cover it, and since AoS is a permissive ruleset, without an FAQ that explicitly allows this in matched play it's not legal.

Survive yes. Chew through things, no. The damage output of spirit hosts is absolutely abysmal.

1) Page reference? Im not aware that it explicitly states this. Not that we dont know that paying points is the intention, but without specific wording indicating how the rule works we also dont have specific wording to discern how Tzeentch abilities interact with it. 2) That is not an FAQ, it's a designers' commentary, and does not specify matched play. Outside of matched play ES don't cost points, so without a qualifier to that extent, it really doesn't help solve the issue.

There is literally nothing in the rules that supports this viewpoint. The rules don't actually stipulate that you need to pay point to know OR use the endless spell, but its plainly obvious that that's what's intended by them having PB profiles. The only stipulation is that you must have a model and a warscroll, so if we follow your logic, anyone can use endless spells without paying points for them.

Any chance of a rules pack ASAP for this? Not long now to be choosing and painting armies without knowing what rukesnyoure using/not using! Cheers

It definitely doesn’t have zero ambiguity I agree, but Endless spells do have a min and max unit size, and you don’t get to just *use things* in matched play if they have points values without paying for them, so no idea why people would think this would be an exception to the rule.

In narrative sure. In matched play, endless spells have a points cost, so you don’t have them available to use if you didn’t pay for them.

You can’t. You do *know* enemy endless spells, but since this is matched play and you must pay for ES in matched play, you can’t actually cast the spell as you have no model. So no stealing endless spells from opponents, unfortunately.

You dont cast Curse of Years against anything near a Lens. Much like most mortal wound spells, Lens completely turns it off, realistically.

Personally I don’t think that you can afford to take anything else in a Nagash list.; all that you have room for are units and at least one necro. In the new missions you have to be able to be mobile and/or cover a lot of board. Forget theorycrafting things like “hammer unit” and so on; if you don’t have bodies on the board, you aren’t winning the game. @Sception is right, and further than that, you *will* find yourself dispelling your own portal most turns to reposition it. As an example, I played two games lastnight and there were exactly 0 turns where I didn’t dispel and reposition my portal.

A lot of lists in this thread are neglecting some important things, assuming they're meant for matched play. People seem to be busy squeezing models into lists without considering how they're going to actually win games! 1) Nagash should not be your only hero/behemoth. Multiple missions require you to hold or at least push more than one objective with a hero/behemoth, a hero with an artifact, or a wizard. You have to work extra guys in there somewhere. 2) Much like above, some missions require you to move as the objective moves. These armies posted are all quite immobile (even Nagash isnt that fast without Pinions which many people don't take). 3) There is a big cost to using Nagash as your only hero, in that you dont get an artifact - and in the case of squeezing in 1-drop First Cohort, you actually miss out on two! It might look good on paper, but you're really wasting army potential by doing this. 4) Another cost to not having extra casters with Nagash is the lack of spells for him to cast. Endless spells will get you somewhere, but he really wants to spellportal himself on turn 1 if he's your only caster, meaning no more ES until turn 2. This is another reason to squeeze in at minimum one Necromancer. 5) Always start the game with a command point. Period. It lets you reactively Inspiring Presence against turn 1 alpha strikes, it lets you use Nagash's command ability in a turn in which you also need to rez a unit. 2 would be ideal but it's hard to squeeze that in. 6) Don't neglect damage output! Nagash does not do a lot of damage by himself, ultimately. You can debuff things til thw cows come home but if you're not putting out the hurt you aren't winning games. If you havent got a Necromancer you're missing Vanhels Danse, if you're running nothing but Dire Wolves and a few skellies you have effectively no damage potential. Making good Nagash lists is hard, but don't fall into these traps!

Having an internal debate with myself, decided to write an article instead! Which is better: Ripperdactyls or Terradons? https://justplaygames.uk/blogs/age-of-sigmar/terradons-vs-ripperdactyls-5-minute-maths

Pretty sure these updates warscrolls are all in error. They’re not only overpowered but also I can’t inagine them making such wholesale changes without letting us know or releasing an article.

Ironically I want to go back to my original LoN tournament list (LoS+deathmarch) but can’t due to going up 110 points. Deathmarch isn’t really playable anymore though unfortunately, so that list isn’t so good anymore.