Aspirant Snaeper

Me and my list building is a terrible way to stay involved in this hobby... Anyways, I had some inspiration for a 1000 point list and I actually quite like it. Daughters Of Khaine - Mortal Realm: Ulgu - Temple: Khailebron LEADERS Bloodwrack Medusa (140) - General - Command Trait : Mistress of Illusion - Artefact : Shadow Stone - Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor Hag Queen (60) - Prayer : Blessing of Khaine UNITS 10 x Blood Sisters (280) 20 x Witch Aelves (200) -Pairs of Sacrificial Knives 5 x Doomfire Warlocks (160) - Lore of Shadows : Shroud of Despair 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80) 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80) TOTAL: 1000/1000 Shroud of Despair and Mindrazor combo here. Blood Sisters get mailed to the opponents rear first, or Doomfire's depending on the situation. Witches work as a screen for the Medusa and Hag to avoid getting shot off the table thanks to -2. All in all, for 1000 points I think this a surprisingly balanced list with a lot of bodies. Does some shooting without sacrificing it's melee teeth and can weather a 1k Gun Line.

Yes, I was going to ask about how many Unbinds you felt were ideal. But really, the list was just a random inspiration I had. Anyone can adjust it to how they see fit! I can imagine that it will be very unforgiving. There's only 115 wounds, low saves, etc. If I or anyone played it, they'd have to make sure every movement was timed right and most buffs were successful. The army feels like it would work best spread across the board, which means few synergies being passed around. But boy would it be fun.

Made a fun list after finding an unfinished prototype saved on my desktop. I can't see myself playing it anytime soon, but I figured I'd share it to inspire someone else, maybe. Now You're Thinking with Portals! “A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.” Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine - Mortal Realm: Ulgu - Temple: Khailebron LEADERS Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300) - General - Command Trait : Mistress of Illusion - Artefact : Iron Circlet - Prayer : Blessing of Khaine Bloodwrack Medusa (140) - Artefact : Shadow Stone - Lore of Shadows : Mirror Dance Hag Queen (60) - Prayer : Sacrament of Blood Hag Queen (60) - Prayer : Catechism of Murder UNITS 10 x Witch Aelves (100) -Pairs of Sacrificial Knives 10 x Witch Aelves (100) -Pairs of Sacrificial Knives 10 x Witch Aelves (100) -Pairs of Sacrificial Knives 10 x Doomfire Warlocks (320) - Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor 10 x Doomfire Warlocks (320) - Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80) 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80) 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80) 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80) BATTALIONS Shadow Patrol (130) TOTAL: 1950/2000 The key points here are Mirror Dance, Mistress of Illusion and Shadow Patrol. Not to mention four units of deep-striking Heartrenders. Mindrazor makes Doomfire's and Heartrenders terrifying in close combat. Two sets of ten, teleporting Warlocks ensure that I can potentially wipe 12 6 wounds right off the board at the beginning of the game. The Cauldron with Witch Escort can potentially aggro something nasty, then send the Witches across the battlefield and then swap places with the help of the Medusa and a foot-slogging Hag Queen (R.I.P.). Alternatively, a Foot Slogging Hag Queen can find herself teleported to safety, and the once squishy looking Witch Blob she was chasing suddenly becomes a much tougher affair when the Cauldron pops up behind them. The drawbacks are low model counts. This army cannot stand against a hard hit, although with all of the Witch Brew going around, at least Battleshock shouldn't be a huge problem for the Witch Aelves who will be the ones more likely to receive it. Question regarding the Shadowpaths rule: The way it's worded, if I don't move in the movement phase, can I then move at some other point in the Battle round? With that later move essentially being my move during the movement phase? It doesn't seem to specify that it has to be done during the movement phase, only that it counts as your movement phase movement.

So I posed the other half of this question in the DoK thread, but I'd like to put it to my fellow Bloodletters as well: What would you say Khorne's alignment is? Lawful Evil? Chaotic Evil? Something else? I would imagine him and Khaine have vastly different ideaologies. What I gathered was that Khaine's philosophy is more ritualistic and necessary, while Khorne is just raw bloodlust. I realize that Khorne is the God of War for Chaos, and War is inherently chaotic, but he seems to be pretty ironclad on his simple rules. Even if those rules themselves cause Chaos. I'm not well versed with alignments so I was just curious.

On an unrelated note: What would you guys say is Khaine's alignment? Neutral? Chaotic Neutral? Lawful Evil? Trying to work it out for when I start building them when I get the inevitable "What's the difference between him and Khorne?"

Yeah, honestly if I feel like the Skullreapers and/or Wrathmongers are not contributing, I may try out going for a full-on Horde of armored bodies. Although that might stretch the buffs thin and ruin the late-game punch. I do like Greatweapons and Halberds, especially with the buffs Khorne can give out to make those weapons more reliable. I've also used their shields to great effect against Death armies in the past.

Oh right! Totally slipped my mind.

That, and with the new Command Points, his Command Ability will likely be used more in forces where he's not the General. He's been set aside for now in favor of the Wrathhammer version. Since I'm mostly using him as a source of buffs, being able to make him an absolute tank with his Ability going off + the Gryph-Feather Charm (+ Look Out, Sir!) will hopefully ensure he's pumping out that +1 attack to nearby units and Violently Urging them as long as possible. That and being able to unreliably attack from behind his meat shields with his 3" range.

So I'm looking on Warscroll Builder, and I see two different point values for the Aspiring Deathbringer with Goreaxe and Skullhammer (80 and 100). I'm going to assume it's the higher point value, correct? I may have to kit-bash an Aspiring Deathbringer with Wrathhammer then. Anyways, I was playing around with a List idea that's based around an older Gore Pilgrims list I've used before. Allegiance: Khorne - Mortal Realm: Ghur LEADERS Aspiring Deathbringer (80) - General - Command Trait : Violent Urgency - Bloodaxe and Wrath Hammer - Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm ( or Aspiring Deathbringer with Goreaxe and Skullhammer (100) - General - Command Trait: Violent Urgency - Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm ) Bloodsecrator (140) - Artefact : The Brazen Rune Slaughterpriest (100) - Blood Blessing : Killing Frenzy Slaughterpriest (100) - Blood Blessing : Killing Frenzy Slaughterpriest with Hackblade and Wrathhammer (100) - Blood Blessing : Bronzed Flesh Skarr Bloodwrath (80) ( or Bloodstoker (80) or Skulltaker (100) or Bloodmaster Herald of Khorne - Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm (taken from Aspiring Deathbringer above)) UNITS 10 x Blood Warriors (200) -Goreaxes - 1 x Goreglaives ( or NOTHING 10x Chaos Warriors (180) - Greatweapons ) 20 x Bloodreavers (140) -Meatripper Axes 30 x Bloodletters (320) - Gore Drenched Icon 1 x Chaos Warshrine (160) - Blood Blessing : Bronzed Flesh 5 x Wrathmongers (180) 5 x Skullreapers (170) -Daemonblades - 1 x Soultearers BATTALIONS Gore Pilgrims (200) TOTAL: 1970/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 Thoughts on design: This army works in five key blocks: The Rear Command/Support block is the smallest, consisting of the Gore Pilgrim Heroes sitting back and providing buffs. Killing Frenzy's and the Bronzed Flesh are for the Bloodletters first and foremost, but can be applied elsewhere as the need arises. The Bloodletter block is next and almost stand alone. Early Blood Tithe might be used to get a Bloodmaster on the board, if needed. These guys go towards whatever needs killing the most. The Bloodreaver block is the sleeper here. They'll be hand in hand with the Warshrine to provide a surprise to those who might be used to paper-thin shirtless muscle heads. Will work closely with the Forward Command/Support block more often than not. The Bloodwarrior block will consist of them and the Skullreapers. These guys will take advantage of the Portal of Khorne's AOE, but otherwise get sparing buffs. That's okay since they can handle themselves quite well. Lastly, the Forward Command/Support block will typically work with the Bloodreaver block, using them as a chaff shield/delivery package. This will consist of the Aspiring Deathbringer, Skarr Bloodwrath and the Wrathmongers. They have the chops to work on their own if need be. The Wrathhammer Deathbringer's Thirst for Glory ability works really well with Skarr Bloodwrath here. Skarr wants to die (and you want him to die, too) so when he charges ahead and softens up a unit for the Bloodreavers (or whoever the Forward C/S block is supporting) he can hopefully get himself killed and allow your Wrathhammer General to re-roll hits and save rolls for the rest of the game. Additionally, Skarr and the Deathbringer have 3" weapons to contribute to the fight in case I decide to hide them behind a line of Bloodreavers/letters/warriors instead. The Forward C/S block is all about working with the Bloodreavers and making what is normally a chaff unit a surprise instead. Bronzed Flesh and Protection of the Dark Gods give the 'reavers enough toughness to last more than one round of combat. With a +1 attack from the General, Wrathmongers, Warshrine's TOTEM and Bloodsecrator's Portal of Skulls, as well as the re-rolls from the Warshrine's Favour of Khorne and you start to realize what these guys might be capable of. Toss in the General's Violent Urgency and they'll make it to combat, too. All of this applies to the Bloodwarriors as well in case I want an even scarier group and need the Bloodreavers as chaff. If Skarr doesn't pull his weight, this is where the Bloodstoker comes in to further make this terrifyingly killy. While the aforementioned Forward C/S + Bloodwarrior block could be terrifying, the 'warriors are designed to be independent and simply be a tough barrier to ensure the Skullreapers end up where they're most needed. As long as they're ignoring battleshock and getting the +1 from the Portal of Skulls they'll be killy enough for me. However, if I noticed I'm running short on Command Points, I am considering swapping them for Chaos Warriors with Great Weapons to get my list to 1950pts (as long as my Forward C/S Heroes both stay at 80). I don't think this should be a problem as my General is the only one with a Command Ability and most of my army should be ignoring Battleshock. Though the new run/charge Universal Command Abilities could be crucial, so it's worth considering. But getting big guys with -1 Rend is never a bad thing, even if they're not swinging as reliably or as often. This can be overcome by moving the Warshrine to them instead of the Bloodreavers. then I'm S.O.L. because BATTALION REQUIREMENTS, SNAEPER. The biggest let down of this army is that it's slow. Summoning will help a bit, as will Skarr popping up around the board when and where he's needed. Priority summons would be the Bloodmaster, Additional Bloodletters, a chance Skullcannon and lastly a WoK Bloodthirster. I'm not really thinking about Tournaments or anything, and in the past I've had my Battleline pull enough weight that units like Wrathmongers and Skullreapers didn't even get a chance to contribute. Granted, those games were just friendly slugfests played without Objectives. I also put Skulltaker as a considered 6th Hero as he's always pulled his weight for me in the past and made his points back and then some. C & C?

@DantePQ You had some good match ups! I realize that there are multiple ways to make DoK work, I was merely commenting that the list you used had some similarities to other successful lists, but wasn't necessarily suggesting that those were the things that make DoK successful! I think Blood Stalkers, Lifetakers and the Bloodwrack Shrine are some of the weakest links in the book, but even then they have ways to work. The Shrine's biggest hit was the increase in Battalion costs which make the "on foot" Medusa more attractive. Lifetakers really need a Khinerai Hero/General to make them Battleline. Blood Stalkers can work with a Temple Nest Battalion and Morathi as General allowing them to shoot twice a turn, but even then that's only as long as she's small. I sincerely hope DoK don't receive too strong of a nerf if they ever do get the great and terrible gaze of the GW withering rulemongers. They're an expensive army and it could be the death of them if they become completely mono-list.

@DantePQ What kind of armies did you face off against aside from Sylvaneth? @Overread While I'm inclined to share your delight that the Daughters are flexibile, his list still features some common themes of other successful lists like 30/30/10, Heartrenders, Doomfires, Hagg Nar. It's nice that they can be adjusted to ones play style (or due to adversity) and it's clear that they require experience to play well, but I feel like there are certain units that are stronger than others and will always fit in in some form.

What's the opinion on using an Everchosen Varanguard as a Lord on Daemonic mount? I honestly think the Varanguard's mount looks more Daemonic than the resin "horse" model. Are they the same base size?

Also, stick to the meta you lab rat. ?

*spits drink all over screen* ?

Annnd here's the Blackout Daughter of Khaine list that finished 15th, since we've all talked about the 2nd place list. This one includes Morathi instead of the Doomfire's and Blood Sisters we saw in @Morglum StormBasha's list. And here's the 17th place overall list, which also uses Morathi. Once again, we see the magic number of 70 Witches/Sisters, and two units of 5 Heartrenders again. Otherwise this list is quite different. Mirror Dance is an excellent spell for Morathi when you consider the amount of Heroes in the list. I don't see a lot of reliability of the support, but the sheer amount of it (and the relatively fewer units to cast support onto) might mitigate not taking Iron Circlet or Shadow Stone. The use of Predatory Spells and Morathi is a good combo given her range.

So here's the Khorne list that placed 10th Overall at Blackout. Not sure I'm surprised. Flying around the board mulching things to a pulp. Fleshhounds denying magic and serving as fast chaff.. Nice to see Skarr Bloodwrath included, as well. Here's the 20th Overall Khorne list: Sadly, information on Artefacts and Traits were not available as it was a hand written list. Double Battalions is certainly an interesting choice, although it doesn't appear that the list really suffers as a result. 25x Blood Warriors are hard to move and Wrathmongers can handle some of the bigger threats while boosting other units (especially if they use the Meatripper 'reavers as screens). Blades of Khorne 27th Overall: There are some creative solutions here with adding in the Gaunt Summoner. I like the balance between 'reaver chaff, bodies of Bloodletters and a few Blood Warriors. Blackout 35th Overall and my personal favorite! I've always been a fan of Gore Pilgrims x Dark Feast, but with the cost of both being so high now, I figured it'd be a lost cause to try it. All those Slaughterpriests and the Warshrine, with loads of bodies to tap for what I assume is a lot of Blood Sacrifice prayers would be merciless. With all of the Nagash lists that were out there, though, it's not surprising to me that this wouldn't have done better. It's a shame there wasn't more detail on his load outs and Prayers.

I definitely planned on buying at least two Cauldron's, rest assured. But I have a hard time justifying putting Hag Queen's in which bewilders me as they're as cheap as they come. In fact, list building with DoK in general has been very different from what I'm used to with Khorne. The Cauldron of Blood seems almost essential, not unlike the Khorne Bloodsecrator, but the difference is almost two hundred points! I'm used to running out of Hero slots with Khorne, but with Daughters I have a hard time even filling them up past half as you can see. Once I get my 1000 point list and play a few games, I will likely tweak the procurement to adjust to what I like and do not like. If I determine that a Cauldron is overkill at lower levels then I may ditch it for foot-heroes. It really does drive me crazy that we have no clamshell heroes. Converting it is! 2k Strategy: I've played with hordes of bodies before and I think I'll still want to have at least 70 models of Battleline by the time I get to 2k. I think, as long as I can keep the Heroes safe, I won't necessarily need more. The thought process being that as long as I have one Witch Brew and Inspiring Presence, then I know I can at least keep the two most essential units in combat from disappearing. Keeping combats in waves will also be essential: Blood Sisters and Witches strike first, Heartreavers drop down shortly after and operate independently unless needed. Doomfire's will likely also roam alone and unsupported in most cases. The smaller SoS unit will serve as chaff or a fire-and-forget objective grabber or board control, while the big block of SoS will rotate between serving as the wall to protect the whole army early game, or the wall to protect the Blood Cauldron late game, at which point they then become the target of buffs and turn into tough murder machines. That's the theory, anyways!

So I decided to lay out a road map for my collection to guide my build from 1000 points all the way up to 2500. I'm sorry if it's a bit much, but I figured I'd share to at least give someone else ideas about building up a DoK force if they wanted to. Not sure how feasible it is to build a competent force and get two extra command points until the 2000 mark. Any feedback is welcome.

I eventually want a unit of 10 but I can never seem to make them fit without reducing other parts of the army that I don't want to reduce. They are phenomenal on paper, though. As a Khorne player, they give me everything my army lacks! (Speed, Shooting, Magic). Being able to contribute during every phase of the game is absolutely massive. I don't know of too many non-hero units that can do it.

I conceptualized a Shadowblade Assassin list awhile ago to see how it might work and I think I found something I like. Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine - Temple: Hagg Nar LEADERS Bloodwrack Medusa (140) - General - Command Trait : Bathed in Blood - Artefact : Shadow Stone - Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330) - Artefact : Iron Circlet - Prayer : Catechism of Murder Hag Queen (60) - Prayer : Blessing of Khaine Assassin (80) - Allies Assassin (80) - Allies UNITS 30 x Sisters Of Slaughter (300) -Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers 20 x Witch Aelves (200) -Pairs of Sacrificial Knives 10 x Blood Sisters (280) 5 x Doomfire Warlocks (160) - Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80) 5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80) BATTALIONS Slaughter Troupe (130) ENDLESS SPELLS Suffocating Gravetide (30) This doesn't have as many bodies as I would like, but you've got Sisters of Slaughter to absorb a hit while Witch Aelves deal out attacks as a back up Assault unit to the Blood Sisters. I really tried to make 10 Doomfire Warlocks work, but it was coming at the expense of Battleline numbers, which I feel is more important. The Warlocks will likely pop the Gravetide out in an ideal location to minimize collateral damage. Heartrenders and Assassin's mission profiles will change depending on the opponent, but the ideal situation is to have them drop in the back and multiply. Lifetakers might ultimately be the better option for delivering Assassin's, as they can drop him/her off and potentially pull out of combat to then go and hit something else after attacking.

@AngoraDemon So there I was, watching your battle report, and as soon as I saw that Cabbage charge your Bloodsecrator I just skipped ahead to see how things turned out... only to see it suspiciously absent and your Bloodsecrator still standing. "Wait, WHAT?! Rewind!" "I thought that was the turning point for you" "It was!" "And then it wasn't."

I missed that. Annnnnd she's dead to me.

Well remember, she doubles her casting range, which means she can throw Mindrazor on Blood Sisters from 36 inches away! Her Command Ability (in my scenario) would be primarily used on the Blood Stalkers (unless Blood sisters are in range), and they would likely be kept close enough to her to ensure they get that valuable buff. You also can't count out your opponents reaction to a giant winged snake suddenly popping up on the other side of the board. Ideally I'd be teleporting her by turn three, but in a troubling situation it'd be turn 2. By turn 2, though, Blood Rites is giving you Re-rolls of 1 on Charge Rolls to add a little reliability. But yes, that is probably the biggest flaw in the plan. Another chip in Morathi's armor.

@Overread I absolutely agree. I think pairing her in a Khailebron Temple list solves most of the issues. Allowing her to be both a back field caster/buff thrower/mortal wound sniper with the massive magical range while keeping her as safe as possible so that when she goes Monster-mode, she has as many of those wounds (preferably all of them!) as possible to ensure she's a threat for the rest of the game. *Poof* "Look Medusa! I'm a snake, like you!" - Morathi "Ugh, this again, alright, go have your fun" *waves hands and teleports boss-snake lady to the front lines*

@Olincay Not to interject as I know the question wasn't directed at me, but my issue with Morathi is her cost for sure. It's not that I can't stomach 480 points though, it's simply the fact that taking her reduces the quality of the units you surround her with, which in turn puts her at greater risk of being focused on and thus lowering her effectiveness since it may force her into Monster mode sooner than you want it to. I prefer Horde armies myself. I like it when I have at least 70 models of Battleline on the board of different flavors. But to make an army like that make sense, you need to have the buffs flowing. Morathi is more than capable of that, but her presence either reduces the size of the horde or the amount of other Heroes to throw out buffs. The rising cost of Battalions is not helping her, either. I armchair'd a list together for Morathi as a "what if", because I like her and wouldn't mind running her one day because her model is fantastic and her rules are as well. As I mentioned above, my concern with her is turning her at the optimal time and the difficulty that I feel I would face initially with that. I want to make sure she's a Wizard when I need her and where, and a Monster when I need her and where, and those two roles can sometimes be mutually exclusive. Anyways, not to drag on about a list, but here's what I came up with and what I think about her: Morathi's Trap Snaeper - Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine - Temple: Khailebron LEADERS Bloodwrack Shrine (220) - General Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480) Hag Queen (60) Forgive me as I hadn't worked out what Artefacts/Prayers to play with. (Mindrazor would be a given for Lore, though). This is a Khailebron Temple Nest list with the Bloodwrack Shrine as the General. Morathi, when next to the Shrine General, has a -3(!!!) to hit from shooting attacks, mixing her ability, the Look out, Sir! and the Temple buff. This allows her to be mobile and relatively un-harassed on the board without depending on cover. Additionally the Shrine's Aura offers a deterrent to anyone who might callously move a unit to hit her (her 3 wounds max being further deterrent). Lastly, by being next to the General, she can transform on my own time and teleport to anywhere she's allowed to go so that The Shadow Queen can do her monster thing in the best possible place. The Shrine provides a tanky General that will be buff-focused and the Hag Queen will work as a mobile buff support, but... UNITS 5 x Blood Sisters (140) 5 x Blood Sisters (140) 5 x Blood Sisters (140) 10 x Blood Stalkers (320) 10 x Blood Stalkers (320) BATTALIONS Temple Nest (130) TOTAL: 1950/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 This is where I started to dislike Morathi. I followed @Morglum StormBasha's philosophy on docking a few points off the list to get those Command Points. The detriment is, to me, a razor thin list of elite snakes that are absolutely dependent on buffs in order for this mad plan to work. "Why so many Blood Stalkers?" well that's simply to take the best advantage of Morathi's command ability. Having 20 Melusai shooting twice a turn is shades of Kunnin' Rukk levels of shooting cheese. But it means the 15 Blood Sisters need to be on point to do their job, which puts an additional load of burden on the Blood Stalkers. "This game is won by claiming objectives" though, so at least the extra movement dynamics provided by the Khailebron command trait ensure some opportunities exist for porting across the map to nab poorly defended points. Outside of this list, I cannot visualize how I'd fit Morathi into a 2000 point game, and even this list has a few issues which make it incredibly vulnerable in my eyes. Even switching to a normal Bloodwrack Medusa isn't enough to fit 10 Blood Sisters into a single squad, and I feel that reducing Stalkers defeats the Khailebron battalion's purpose, but it would increase combat effectiveness... Anyways, sorry for the idle rantings of a Khorne player looking to get into Khaine.