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2k Pretenders (Hunters of the Heartlands + battle regiment) Bladesinger on Exalted Chariot (hunter of god-beasts + Monarch of lies) (heal spell + pendant or 5+ ward) Infernal Enrapturess Sigvald 2 x 5 Hellstriders with whips 11 blissbarbs 1 x 10 + 2 x 5 Twinsouls (all three in Hunters of the Heartlands) 10 Ungor raiders Bit of an anti-meta list since we're in a world where everyone are hyped up about bringing monsters. So how might I thrive in such a meta without leaning into it? Bladesinger and Siggie serve as assassins. Inf. Enrapturess annoy and feel some DP. Hellstriders disrupt and tie us as best they can. Raiders for some DP and sacrifice. Blissbarbs do what they do till someone sneezes at them. Finally, the three Twinsoul units go on the offence with Exalted and Siggie. Might even be better with Godseekers (+1 charge and allows me to bounce around the exalted with retreat and charge). I just didn't want to miss out on the Pretenders hype and I gotta say, in a way where people are looking at monsters a lot 'hunter of godbeasts' is very nice and if the monster is also a character then that just means it is another -1 to hit. Still got 60pts to spare. Not sure what to do with that, perhaps just include a spawn to serve as a roadblock. The list is quite raw in my mind and I'll take any ideas which continues to build on the "anti-monster meta" mindset. Doesn't have to be explicit anti-monster, all the time, but generally speaking I don't want to go deep into monsters since everyone is!

If you are genuinely curious take a few minutes and read up (or watch vids) on typography, copywriting, ux writing. Imperfectly summarised, presentation, formatting, structure, and finally considering who/when/where/why someone is reading/using it. The TL;DR version comes down to creating easy to understand text in a format which makes it clearer for the reader. This goes beyond bigger/smaller text and goes into format and structure. In this context it comes down to raising the standards for what to expect from GW and with it would also come better structure of rules (making them easier to understand regardless of font size). Because the people who work on this stuff doesn't just do it from an accessibility standpoint, they do it to improve the overall experience of, in this case, the general's handbook 2021. It is great that it is working for you and they've done a good job with its overall presentation. We just have the audacity to ask for improvement, not take away anything, change any rules, or whatever. Again, it isn't just about larger or smaller text. If the changes we're proposing would take effect you wouldn't even know to complain or even notice since, just like now, it isn't a problem for you. It would just be another book with similar structure. I'm sure if there's a senior copywriter here they can fill you in on more stuff. If not, hope this clears it up.

There are a lot things to consider when creating a document like the GHB21. There are certain colours and typefaces which are better or worse for different purposes. There's a lot you can do with character spacing alone, for example. Most people go past this without thinking, certain text just flows different and is easier to read. As for the general design of the GHB, I've heard a lot of good stuff. It is practical, everything is easy to find, and so on. So in terms of additional work, there's isn't much additional work to make it even better (as in easier to read/easier on the eyes). In other words, the changes would not be drastic, it would simply be an improvement which would be felt by all. I mean, who here would say no to better designed books?

True, as is the compliment sandwich (good, bad, good) or just a mix. The main thing which set people off is when you get personal or accuse some of -isms, insults, or implying an impaired intellect or wit! Well, some people just want the reaction on social media so I guess those are good for that!

In other words, because the lead graphic designer didn't consider accessibility it continues to be an issue throughout GW. If they get feedback constructive feedback as opposed to judgemental and/or angry posts online it is much more likely to read and considered. I'd really wish people would reflect on when they changed their minds on something, was it when they were publicly shamed or was it after a heartfelt discussion? Did it happen when you got called stupid and/or ignorant (or worse) or when you kept things on topic to avoid things getting personal? I also happen to agree on some accessibility points as I frequently make use of filters or apps to change away from searingly bright white background when reading. It isn't even something new, we've known for ages that the human eye is much less strained on a bone whitish/beige background. The point is, there's always egos behind a large company and you gotta manoeuvre accordingly. Plus, even the most thick-skinned designers I know have been known to lash out at times (hurts to get roasted when you put a lot of time into something). It isn't even about sugar-coating stuff but making it clear what the problem is with a proposed solution so it is easy to rationalise, understand, and act upon.

Send in constructive feedback or except people to throw your opinion away. If sufficient people who find the font small (or hard to read) is heard then there's a much greater chance of something being done about it. I understand the frustration but similarly I have a very difficult time imagining them doing this out of malice. Someone made an oopsie, let's not get all judgy. A note on calling people out on social media, don't. Feedback on design and such are always, and without exception, best given in a private location (mail or DM). Putting people on the spot in public is probably the most effective and surefire way to make someone get defensive or even antagonistic. Going directly to the source and being civil/constructive on the other hand will often be met with gratitude. TL;DR: Don't be a Karen, be awesome, and people will usually be awesome right back at you. edit; I'm not accusing anyone of being a Karen!

I think we're arguing about different scenarios. S1: The player is new and/or is slowly getting into the hobby. In this scenario proxies are fine for the vast majority of players. S2: The player is not new and changes things around to the point where it is difficult to keep track of (model-wise). This can get troublesome and disruptive to the game. You can get around this with markers and stuff. S3: Painting scheme. I do not think anyone here has expressed an issue with "the wrong" paint scheme. S4: You arrive in a narrative setting where matched play is secondary to the lore/background. Here you might end up in a situation where disregarding or showing disinterest in representing your models on the tabletop can be downright disrespectful (and the group might not be a good fit). S5: You have an amazing idea for a conversion or theme of an army. I do not think anyone would have an issue with this scenario. I've never ever come into contact with this anyways. Conversions, however, least how I understand it does not fall under 'proxying'. From my POV it seems everyone is fine with proxying in S1, S3, S5. S2 can be fine but it depends on the player. I enjoy WYSIWYG but I'm not pedantic. S3 is also something which I've never really seen much of being an issue. S4 you're in a hobbyist first-scenario where it isn't about being a gatekeeper but rather getting into the narrative/hobbyist aspect. In that case it becomes about respecting the community you joined. Overall, it comes down to the community you play in. Non-tournament play is likely going to be more relaxed whereas competitive players are probably going to demand WYSIWYG(...ish). Then there's hobbyist and narrative play which might be more strict/lenient. There are probably more scenarios but overall, as seen in this discussions most of us use these particular rules as guidelines.

You can count on me (bolded text). For instance, if someone is new or is struggling to afford stuff I will gladly make exceptions or even lend them my stuff to proxy (in some cases sell entire armies on the cheap). When I first saw this rule I kind immediately assumed it was to prevent malicious or "creative" ways to bend the rules. But I get the reaction to my points now!

Which is why I'm perplexed with the replies. It feels like people are fixated on the literal rule as opposed to how it might be used and similarly the replies seem to be tied to something very different than I actually wrote. Might be my fault for not being clear but just in case my first point got lost in the walls of text (underlined the bits which makes me even more confused about comments like "gatekeeping" etc); I wouldn't mind though and I do not think GW expect people to enforce these rules with an iron fist. It is, however, good to be aware of so you 1) make it VERY clear to your opponent which sub-faction you are, 2) clearly distinguish the differences, 3) give opportunity for your opponent to ask questions and clarify things. The spirit of the rule is clarity. That's my interpretation anyways. I have no issue admitting I care about the lore though.

If you're already making things clear and obvious for your opponent this rule wasn't written for you. I'm also convinced people would bash GW if these rules weren't here as being unclear and opening up to scenarios where "that guy" would claim that there's nothing in the rules which says I can't use a potato to represent X unit or other silly scenarios... Or to confuse through cheating/gaslighting, "oh that was actually that model..." As someone once said, once you know the rulebook you're in a much better position to throw it away. In this case, each group and club can make their own adjustments.

Proxies, e.g. using a different miniature to represent another with no alterations, can be extremely annoying since not only do your opponent have to keep track of all your rules but also which unit you randomly decided is a different unit this time around. Since no effort has been made to convert or kitbash it is a proxy, not a conversion. AFAIK this has been a part of pretty much every tournament I've heard of and is a staple of good sportsmanship. Similarly, things can get very confusing if you're rocking the colours of one sub-faction but have different rules every other game. Now your opponent, once gain, have to keep track of your battletome and opens up to gotcha-moments. I wouldn't mind though and I do not think GW expect people to enforce these rules with an iron fist. It is, however, good to be aware of so you 1) make it VERY clear to your opponent which sub-faction you are, 2) clearly distinguish the differences, 3) give opportunity for your opponent to ask questions and clarify things. The spirit of the rule is clarity. That's my interpretation anyways.

At this point, with all the changes that's going around I am going ignore everything that isn't explicitly tested in-game. Not because of my optimism (or me knowing better than anyone else) but because people have been so incredibly wrong about HoS leading up to 3rd. I'm more referring to the "wisdom" of youtubers than anyone else (some of them should be ashamed of themselves).

I'm not saying they're great (or even that I'm happy with it). They sit in an awkward position of paying for above average offence and always having +1 save in combat. However, whenever they change something like this it is impossible catch everything. However, however, they could have reduced the points more.

Yepp, from their perspective Painbringers have the an always-on 1+ save CA in combat now. That's the perspective I'm taking as well and with that, how can I make the most of that. Have you checked other armies? S2D lost their re-rolls to saves too. It is a universal thing as GW does not want super buffed up units in either offence or defence. Haven't really gone into many other FAQs but there's some stuff shaking things up. LotFP lost their VLC mortal wound combat monster, for example, as they can only pick from the big four + S2D (but not everchosen stuff).

All units in the army has the keyword 'legion of the first prince' which includes the big boi himself. In short, he gets the 6+ ward.

He's looking good (I mean, of course he looks good!). 3rd we got an additional source for +1 armour save (assuming you run Lurid Haze). With Dexcessa we have access to another close combat blender and both have different toolbox to deal with different targets. Going back to +1 CAs though, having easy access to a 2+ save with a 4+ ward really makes him quite durable and with the heroic action 'finest hour' he's rocking that 2+ without CA and hits/wounds on 2+/2+. If your opponent has an annoying unit with a ward save he's ideal for cutting it to pieces. Heal helps a lot too. As for the kind of list, you're unlikely design a list around him since he's more of a cruise missile. Set him up, smash into the enemy and hopefully what was standing there now isn't (or is horrifically wounded). With a +3 to charge distances he really is a reliable beat stick too and his fight-first ability means you can get creative with activations. Just be mindful of where you charge him in as he can find himself get isolated and picked off. So for me, he's equally at home in elite infantry lists or cavalry/monster lists relying on speed. There's plenty of lists which include him if you scroll through pages further back.

I can 100% get behind overcoming things on a tactical and strategic level (though I think 8 armies is a bit much to ask!). However, the LRL tome has taken it to a point where people are so miserable they don't even care if they win or are able to overcome such obstacles. At that point, you gotta admit there's a big problem here. 3rd has ignited a new flame among us hedonites as things are clicking into place for the 3rd edition. The initial impression has overstayed its welcome and I'm having a jolly time with it. Lots of promise! It seems my overbearing sense of optimism has payed off and I fully expect a bountiful reward from Slaanesh.

Ironically, exactly why people dislike facing LRL so much. Rules are designed with little to no regard for the opposing player. I mean, despite winning against LRL people are having such a miserable time they don't want a repeat experience. Not an ideal situation and it must feel even worse for LRL players.

Looks good. Similar to the evolving template of Hedonites, i.e. a formation around 10 Twinsouls + 2-3 PBs and a seeker missile (Siggie and/or Dexc). There are some variation too which incorporates blissbarbs but overall I think your list can do the good work of Slaanesh well. Aside from some head turners, as an army hedonites are looking pretty good. It is interesting to see previously sceptical players turn around and claim Hedonites might be a sleeper army. Given how powerful summoning is in 3rd (and how easy it is to get DPs) you can reliably make lists and plan around summoning key units throughout the game. To excess and beyond!

The idea behind depravity points and summoning to me is Slaanesh rewarding extremes with a bigger audience. Slaaneshi champions are vain, selfish, and generally arrogant to the extreme. They want to bask in the attention they get from their god as the indulge in every pain and pleasure they can. Many hedonites need the field of battle to get any real satisfaction. So that's how envision it, a great festival of depravity acting as locus for daemonic summoning. Out of battle this is how Dex and Syn was brought in, a constant stream of pain and mirrors (cause Slaanesh need those mirrors!), i.e. a constant build of up of depraved action. This is also reflected in Glutos and Sigvald as they compete for the favour of their patron god. They even went so far as you fight each other in battle at the expense of "the larger objective." It is all about me, me, me. I'm the best, I'm the most important, and EVERYONE should watch and adore me. My question is, where does your personal idea of the army versus what the army is clash? Sometimes it seems people are projecting what they think the army should be rather than what it is. I'm saying this both in terms of setting up expectations to reach disappointment but also as a way to reflect on what could be. Like @AngryPanda mentions, Depravity Points could easily functions in a similar way to Blood tithes in BoK. I could also see it working like Drukhari's power from pain or certain acts earns your depravity tokens to spend in some manner. As it is, summoning is pretty darn powerful though and rather than being frustrated by having to summon I build my lists in a similar nature to FEC. What that means is that I know I will summon and build my army with it in mind as opposed to seeing it as a limitation or flaw. Even though I'm annoyingly optimistic I'm not blind to some of the issues (some point changes are just "eh???"). I just try to live my life with the outlook of, "Why are you looking back? You are not going that way", as Ragnar Lothbrock said.

The Fomoroid Crusher is another mini-monster. Fits the profile for a hulking Slaangor (dealing out MWs and whirlwind of destruction). With the hike to Slickblades, I think Chaos Knights are a potential stand in unit. Looking at Varanguard they could be a next-level Slickblade because when equipped with Daemonforge weapons they do the MW thing on 6s. Like an upscaled Paingbringer knight. The best news for me though is how viable both Twinsouls/Painbringers are turning out to be. Hellstriders and Seekers are way more interesting now but I'm definitely going to look at Blissbarb Seekers too (especially in LoP lists with Twinsoul/painbringer battleline). Generally speaking, my focus is going to be generating DPs to bring in Keepers/Daemonettes. I still think the Epitome got some play since it is still a 2 cast wizard with anti-miscast through re-rolls (and those endless spells are juicy...). Infernal Rapturess is probably making it into all my lists now cause DP + chip-damage + magic disruption and a deny (with a +1). Apologies for the grating optimism.

Big thanks for the write-up and, most of all, sharing actionable insights backed by play-testing before condemning the army as trash tier. I hadn't even considered Blissbarb Seekers yet and Hellstriders are looking pretty amazing for their points. It is important to raise the issues (as it ain't all sunshine and roses) but similarly, I noticed other armies settling in with their new points cost. Same as you I pretty much consider many of the characters are recyclable/expendable (or as redundancy) depending of what you need summoned. I also wonder if Fiends might be a decent option to have a crack at enemy monsters (-1 to hit, extra damage). Anyways, glad to see more data coming, thanks!

Everyone has been increased in points. Board is smaller. Speed is more dangerous. MSU is going to be more common. Summoned units have more value. Blissbarb Archers are going to love the new Unleash Hell. As expected, we saw increases on characters/monsters/endless spells across the board. I think it is quite presumptuous to assume my positive nature is "forced." I'm solutions-oriented by nature and do not dwell much on the past. Things may not be as we expected, i.e. we made a metric ton of speculation on the 3rd edition and we most definitely got blindsided and set up false expectations because of it. I respect your decision to quit the hobby but I won't stand for being called disingenuous or toxic for expressing what I feel.

We're essentially in a position where we are going to have to find "the new normal." At first list-building is going to feel off but I am fairly certain it will soon be business as usual. Especially as more realise it isn't just their faction who's struggling to find their new identity or style.

With the added point cost everyone is going to find themselves landing short. Characters has gone up by a fair amount for everyone, for examples, and monsters too (or both!). For this list you just got to decide on what is the most important. Do you need an endless spell for this list to work? If so, what other unit is redundant? Currently, you got both Dex and Sigvald, 2 x painbringers and 2 x Slickblades. Is the Dark Pagent needed for you to do your thing? And so on. Taking a unit of fiends over a slickblade unit would put you in a position to afford Visage or the mirror.