Bosskelot

Discussions around NPE in AOS are interesting because I feel like in an effort to fix the issues, GW could go too far in a different direction and lead to a very homogenized and flavourless game. NPE mechanics can be un-fun, but a lot of the time this is down to execution rather than a bad core idea. A good example of what I mean here is the development of League of Legends which for a long time was focused on removing "Anti-Fun" mechanics (their word for NPE) from the Dota genre and specifically calling out Dota1/2 for propagating these mechanics. The issue is, for the longest time (and I don't pay attention to LoL nowadays so forgive me if it's drastically changed), LoL was incredibly bland and boring, with every new hero basically being a copy of the last new hero because Riot had designed themselves into a corner by declaring so many mechanics "Anti-Fun" that they were left with nothing really to work with. The metagame was equally as flavourless and static. One of their focuses was removing the concept of Manaburn from the game, because I guess people disliked their mana being removed by enemy heroes/skills leaving them with no resources left to use their own abilities. But like I said, this now removes that entire concept from the game entirely, never to be seen. Contrast this to Dota 2 where manaburn still exists and is a presence on heroes and items; one such hero, Antimage, even has his defining mechanic be manaburn. And yet it works there, perfectly fine. Nobody in Dota wants manaburn to be removed. And the reason for that is pretty simple; you have counterplay to it; quite a lot of it actually. Other heroes and items can restore peoples mana and the manaburn abilities themselves often have drawbacks associated with them (Antimage needs to physically hit people in CC to drain their mana, Lion needs to stand still and cannot do anything else while he sucks peoples mana up etc). So when discussing NPE, I really hope it doesn't lead to people or GW themselves from just dismissing entire concepts out of hand. The idea of manipulating peoples command point usage is a fun and interesting idea and it works in 40k with stratagems like Agents of Vect; the issue is Lambent Light has no drawbacks or real effort required or real decision making to be made, not that LRL having a way to mess with command point usage/generation is a bad idea on its own.

White Dwarf nowadays is one of the best it's ever been though. Early 2019 onwards its had a complete renaissance.

Wish they'd tell the Eldar writers that. Apparently they get carte blanche to write the faction as a complete joke within their own novels.

It's definitely a bit counterintuitive to AOS's identity as a more casual easy-to-learn game, for sure.

Can't remember if it was on here or somewhere else, but there was a leak/rumour about GW coming out with a range of fluor paints or at least something similar to Tesseract Glow.

Have there been any more leaks about the potential stats of the various Kurnoth Hunter loadouts? The bows from the EoD set don't look particularly impressive.

Just to be crystal clear, and it has kind of been said already, but 40k's blurb was basically nailed on the first try. https://imgur.com/rEmGh7Z Straight from the original RT rulebook from 1987. As I keep saying, a good idea is immediately good and doesn't need decades of refinement (but the refinement can certainly help).

Having to seek out the "good" lore in black library books is already a failing on GW's part. As I said in the rumour thread, if an idea is captivating and solidly executed right from the beginning it doesn't require massive amounts of supplementary material or 20 years of expansion to get good. Especially nowadays where, y'know, GW have been doing this for a while now. Or maybe that's the problem; compared to the GW of the 80's, 90's or even early 00's, there's obviously a lot less creative freedom and direct risk-taking going on, plus a more immediate market-based need to justify or provide context for certain model ranges which is being done out of obligation rather than any passion. FEC's lore is probably so barebones and undeveloped because, well, some writer was given a diktat that said "hey we're making the 3 ghoul kits from vampire counts their own faction, write something for it." In that situation you'll be lucky to get something truly compelling or with a lot of meat (HEH) to it. And it's not like you don't get the passion projects happening anymore; that's basically what bringing Genestealer Cults back was.... and it shows. It REALLY shows. Obviously they had some material to work with from 25 years previously, but it was basically an entirely new idea and they executed it flawlessly and created some of the best "new" lore 40k has ever had and one of the most interesting and characterful factions the modern game has. But again, like I said in the rumour thread, I don't think the AOS writing team is really all that concerned with developing AOS as a setting outside of some very specific cases/factions. Or if they are their priorities and tastes in that respect are very different than what came before and also what a lot of modern fantasy fans are actually interested in. A big thing with WHFB was historical applicability and how a lot of the factions had very detailed histories (that were very much cribbed from our own history) but also had geography, societies and even economies that made logical sense and were easy to engage with. Go and look at a map of the Empire and notice how its settlements all make logical sense in terms of where they are physically and how you can kind of tell at a glance things like population density, likely important political locations, trade routes and even diversity of economies. Maps in AOS are just very haphazard, with some interesting coastlines drawn and some fanciful/evocative names plonked down here and there. Even descriptions of the various locales and realms are focused on high-concept stuff (Overread mentioned a lot of this stuff) that is hard to really relate to or visualise or really engage with beyond the surface level. Now, writing that I sound a little dismissive of that kind of style, but neither of these two approaches has to be good or bad or better than the other. They are different styles. BUT I think that former style is something that modern fantasy enthusiasts gravitate to more, at least within the tabletop realm and certainly within the more nerdy/obsessive side of things. And I think this is why AOS struggles to really engage with more people. Not only is it a style that many just aren't into, even in Baron Klatz's examples above showing some more detailed expansion on the Realms, none of this stuff is really front and centre when it comes to presentation of the lore. GW just aren't interested in really focusing or shining a light on that sort of stuff; they want their big bombastic deity cosmic fantasy melodrama and they want it front and centre. So even though there might very well be instances and stories of more down to earth things that people can more easily relate to they're just not encouraged to seek it out. And I do want to counter the idea that AOS is somehow this shining sea of creativity and uniqueness within the space. For one, dismissing WHFB as just ripping off history also ignores that the idea of 16th century HRE Landschnekts fighting Undead Egyptian Mummies is legitimately something you don't see anyone else doing. But on top of that the main posterboys for GW's flagship fantasy IP look like they're straight out of World of Warcraft, giant pauldrons and everything. Or maybe Diablo 3. idk the Blizzard style really just got very homogenized over the past two decades but regardless I've heard the criticism of SCE looking like they're out of Azeroth from plenty of people plenty of times to the point where I think it's a legitimate thing turning people away. Oh and while I'm here, and bearing in mind I like the Lumineth; they are ripping off the Eldar in 40k. Fall from grace linked in with Slaanesh, and Aspect Warrior temples (complete with animal theming!) they have created in order to create a system that can avoid their previous mistakes happening again. Like, High Elves and Craftworld Eldar used to legitimately be different things outside of shared God names and now Lumineth are just fantasy Eldar. Very unique.

Using the time excuse to wave away criticism of AOS' setting doesn't really hold up. A good idea is a good idea and will immediately be recognized as such. A lot of 40k and WHFB lore was developed in comparatively short amounts of time; like 80% of Craftworld Eldar lore was basically done for WD127 (done when I was only a year old!) and from this one 41 page article they managed to immediately solidify their space elves as something unique, distinct and fascinating. Gav Thorpe has wrote how that article inspired basically everything he's written about Eldar since. Things like Waaagh da Orks, Ere' we go, the two chaos books, WD127 etc are all very early works and pretty much nailed their respective factions identities down and which current media still draws from or just uses the text from extensively. As I said, a good idea is a good idea and if it's executed well immediately, by people who care and are interested in building a setting, it just works. AOS has some good ideas floating about in it, but its main issue, and why I can't see people's problems with the lore being solved any time soon, is that is almost being conceived and developed as a narrative before it is a setting. Marketing always refers to the "ongoing narrative of the Mortal Realms" and the studio had to be dragged kicking and screaming into writing vague timelines and drawing some really abstract maps, so I don't think that's a stretch to see. And when you're focused on telling these big grand epic stories with "stuff" happening and plot points then of course the worldbuilding and the setting will suffer. I'm actually starting a Sylvaneth army because the models are cool and the new rules make them look fun to play; but I've read their lore and it is the most nothing thing ever. Bland would be an understatement. And it's not like there's not good ideas squirreled away in there! But... GW clearly don't have any interest in expanding the faction beyond just tree spirits like music and also remember the main girl she was from the old game because same name. FEC have an interesting concept.... but that's all it is right now. "What if Nemesor Zhandrekh was an entire faction?" but then that's all they did with it and they left it. I think that's why a faction like Lumineth have actually landed pretty well, despite some of the model designs being hit-or-miss, there's actually been work put into what Lumineth society is like and how they live and organize themselves, socially and politically. That kind of stuff can give real weight to a faction and make the world and the setting that much more lived-in and alive.

GW is still reeling from Covid and global supply chain disruptions. Ordinarily they'd probably want to continue with their 3 year cycles but I think that is dead in the water for the foreseeable future. I personally can't see 10th edition 40k in 2023 for instance.

I wasn't really trying to portray it as something negative but in a way it is. GW only has a limited production capacity and they've shown difficulties in keeping their stock replenished over the past 2 years. Ask any new Aeldari player how they're enjoying their Fire Prisms right now. That was a joke btw because new Aeldari players with Fire Prusms don't exist as the model has been OOS basically constantly for nearly 3 months now. If GW is putting their priorities in new products that then barely move any of the vast quantities of stock they create at the detriment of existing stuff then that isn't really good for anyone. There's also the waste issue. Excess stock seems to just get destroyed or discarded (judging by the shocking amounts of products sitting on pallets at the back of GWs warehouse) which is horrendously irresponsible. The carbon footprint of this hobby is also something nobody likes to talk about and if there's all this energy and material going into creating an absurd excess of product that will never move or see use then that's really, really bad.

GW tends to overproduce things nowadays. Indomitus broke something within the company and now they think every box will do numbers like that. It's why 3 LGS stores locally to me had pushy GW reps trying to get them to order 200 boxes of the new Blood Bowl EACH. You can still find stuff like Octarius, Christmas boxes, BT army box, Eldritch Omens etc still being sold in all manner of places, they even stick around the GW site for ages before presumably being pulled off for write-off purposes or for their contents being reboxed.

Well that's Seraphon's one new plastic foot hero then. Oh no wait I bet it's an underworlds warband!

How disappointing for Skaven. Their range is in almost a dire state as Eldar was a couple of months ago. They're one of the most recognizable and iconic factions in Warhammer and GW just don't seem to want to capitalize on that in the slightest. The design studio has always been rumoured to be not a fan of designing Skaven models and I guess it still apparently is true.

Those leaks got me tempted to start Nighthaunt. They look like a lot of fun and have some cool flavour.

Kind of crazy to get such a big leak for something with a winter release. Like we know they print stuff well in advance but that's a full 8 months in advance.

Big meh. Still of the opinion that they should be updating already existing factions fully and introducing lore-existing factions onto the tabletop before bringing back Squats. But regardless, I'm sure they'll do a better job with this incarnation than the original which did fully deserve to disappear. Unlike space elves and space orcs, GWs space dwarfs were never able to make themselves feel distinct model or lorewise.

Yeah BCP has it's fair share of issues but them refusing to use it and instead using their own system which then leads to such a monumental ****** up is pretty bad.

Apologies for dredging this up and at this point there's probably not much more to be said, but at Adepticon they had a gargantuan pile of Dominion boxes they were handing out for free to ticket holders. GW 100% overproduced it.

Yeah SBGL are funny because they're literally just Vampire Counts. It's just straight up a Vampire Counts refresh. They didn't go crazy with it or off the wall or too unique because of the aforementioned chip on their shoulder. Some ideas and concepts are just strong and if executed well will be successful. For comparison look how much better they've done when compared to weird grinning muscle-skeletons. Turns out skeletons, zombies and vampires are just cool and people like them.

40k has been advancing its narrative and resolving campaigns and plot threads that have been left dangling for 20 years. In 9th alone we've had giant refreshes and releases for Necrons, Orks, Sisters and Craftworlds. There's also practically confirmed big extensive releases for Chaos and Guard too. This idea that 40k is currently only releasing Marines just doesn't hold up and isn't based on actual events. In fact the way 40k is handling its faction releases right now is exactly what AOS desperately needs. The amount of half-finished armies or ancient legacy models in the system is higher than 40k and I don't think people will be very satisfied with one hero model on foot for Seraphon or Skaven when they're still having to buy individual Poison Wind Globadiers from 1993. So far it's not been very encouraging for AOS as for many people Kruleboyz were a bit disappointing release-wise and Maggotkin, FS and IDK only got one new hero on foot model (when the latter two are in dire need of proper range expansion). But obviously these things take time to properly design and produce and with world events as they are its probably thrown all manner of spanners in the works. Right now I think AOS really needs to consolidate and update a lot of what already exists within the setting and model ranges before running off to introduce yet more shiny new (but ultimately very sparse) things. It doesn't matter if the designers have a chip on their shoulder about not wanting to be Fantasy again; Seraphon and Skaven exist and need proper updates. FEC and FS need to be actual armies. Hopefully the rumours of a lack of major releases mean that the armies that need expansion are actually getting them and in the meantime the more "complete" ranges can get their battletomes and their mandatory new foot hero model. If what we're actually getting is Chorfs and Umbraneth and both have a combined total of only 10 different units between them (with half being special characters) then that'd honestly suck for the game.

They've somehow made it more complicated than 40k's scoring.

The flavour and theme of the armies that have had their 3.0 tomes really just doesn't feel like it's there for the most part. I think the streamlining and less complexity is fine for an army like Stormcast because they're bursting with Warscrolls and are meant to be a beginner army, but that also means I struggle to get excited about painting or playing the nice new models they got. It really is night and day between AOS and 40k in their new editions so far. While you can absolutely criticise 40k for its bloat with campaign supplements and the wild time we have at top level competitive events, the sheer flavour and effort that has gone into the Codexes is really impressive. Never has there been such a concerted effort to make every army flavourful, evocative of its lore and to really properly flesh out each armies subfactions. I picked up my Aeldari codex yesterday and comparing it to every 3.0 tome so far it's like it was made by a different company. I have not been this excited to play my Eldar in ages and specifically not been this excited to run 95% of the Codex in practically ever. It's bursting at the seams with possibilities and fun thematic army ideas. Even lower tier armies like Necrons are still interesting and mostly reflect their lore. What's funny is I swear the situation used to be switched. AOS was the game that tried to be as evocative and as crazy as possible, whereas 40k was much more homogenous in 8th at least.

How much are those Warcry Warbands in Britcoin usually? Tempted by that Lumineth one (or two)

I mean, the release windows for AOS3 largely line up with 9th ed. You get the initial blitz of the two new armies and then a quiet few months before ramping up again. After Marines and Necrons, in terms of actual substantial releases 40k was pretty quiet for the first half of 2021. Meanwhile AOS was getting Hedonites, Lumineth, Soulblight and all of Broken Realms. In fact, not counting supplements, AOS kind of has more actual full army books out for it right now than 40k 9th did the same time in its lifespan. No seriously; this time last year the 3rd Codex (Death Guard) had only just gone on sale. Obviously Marine supplements do have to count on some level, but they also came with 0 new model releases and were obviously easier to put out than a full faction book would be. The main difference, and one which I harp on about endlessly, is that lack of clarity or leaks about what is coming next for AOS. GW was very up front about the next codex releases for 40K from the moment the Marine and Necron dexes dropped. We knew that after Marine supplements we were getting Death Guard, Drukhari, Admech, Sisters and Orks. It's only relatively recently with AOS that we seemingly have news that Idoneth and Fyreslayers are next. Obviously with all of this covid and shipping has been playing havoc with everything, but it's definitely a strange move in both editions cases to seemingly slow the momentum after a big launch. Considering they also did similar things with 8th and 2.0 they must have some analytics telling them its the sensible thing to be doing.