Fyrenn

This is why you deserve to be King to all, Gargant and Gor alike.

Leave Arkhan alone. he's been through enough already lately.

Yeah, i'm just wondering if they're actually Soulblight... like the big club thing and some of the spears. OR, they're related to kragnos (the hoof?) OR, it's 40k orks. I think the double prong spear thing is shown in the cave drawing? It would be neat if there was more StD coming for sure... but i would expect more new stuff to come out with the advent of a new battletome as opposed to the supplement.... still, even if they just repackaged those knights and warriors from the get started box, that would be huge...

I wish! What would yo be expected? I was thinking that belakor might not actually be getting any other new units (sort of like the morathi release). I would think Bekalor, and at best a repackaging of the existing start collecting guys... but other than that, it's going to be one more for the battalions, rules, etc in the book as opposed to new plastic. My thinking is that it alternates ... morathi just had the endless spells, then teclis came with tons of stuff (although most of that might not have been originally intended, idk) next belakor just brings in belakor, and PERHAPS Kragnos ends up being a bit of a meatier release again. Just speculation really. I'm SUPER excited to learn more about Kragnos, and if the "Belakor May, Kragnos June" rumor is true, we might need to see something about that soon. I just don't know (beyond 40k orks, idoneth warband, and possibly a few additional gravelord pieces) what else there would be to show off.

he's one of the objective markers in the images

Nah, there is KO, Sylvaneth... interestingly the Ogor is Cities as well as Ogor, so I don't know what that does for him... I don't know the costs or anything, but there are a couple ones that sound decent. The one order priestess can do a d6 heal to a model on a 4+ prayer to just a 'friendly' model. it's nice it's not keyword locked for the abilities...

Oh, yes.. I wasn't writing very clearly. I just meant it's like how the other heroes have Ulfenkarn as a keyword, and it calls out how you can't use another city keyword even tho they're all marked cities of sigmar. I was just saying I thought that meant it wasn't indicating a new glade (or new city), more that they were preventing these guys (who are useable in those factions) to gain whatever bonuses you get by being part of a specific city... maybe being the leader or something? I don't know how glades work, but when someone posted and questioned if it meant new sylvaneth book / glades were more likely, I was theorizing that maybe it's just the same effect - they dont' want this character to have a certain interaction with existing glades, like the other order heroes can't gain other cities... But yes - interestingly she's sylvaneth, and not cities - so if you were using her in cities as a living city sylvaneth, she's golden.

I think it's like the cities guys - it's not meaning they will have something new, only that it can't gain the keywords of other ones....

I absolutely LOVE the cities of sigmar setup. I honestly think allies don't make much sense anymore because it kills whatever synergy there is, and sometimes it's quite limited. For example, BoC can only take StD allies, but they can't get any of the benefits of a Chaos Lord's buffs because they do not come with a mark... and aren't StD tagged. I don't WANT a god aligned BoC army, so it's hard when it's, like you said, increasingly mechanically better to choose some god and put all your units with other allegience abilities. There are fixes here, they just need to be done. Personally, I think for StD or BoC, if the lord is marked (and an option is available to do so, or as you said with BoC it's automatic) they should get 1 in 4 to the corresponding God. This way a tzeech shaman gets you access to ogroid myrmidons, etc etc. Meanwhile, you can no longer ally in units without that mark unless it's some sort of special faction specific thing (like StD should have an archaeon like faction that allows everything. I actually thing GAW is doing this more... the new city that uses lumineth, and the city using DoK are great add ons.. we now have cities that offer: Stormcast, KO, Sylvaneth, LRL, and DoK. It looks like a way to do it in the future, anyhow...

I believe the goats the worship the 'main' chaos gods are ostracized for doing so. It's not pure, primordial chaos - in a way those four are a perversion of 'true' chaos. I'd personally love to see more exclusions as well as inclusions in factions based on leaders, heroes, etc. BoC can't even ally in the slaanesh / tzeech gors even if they've chosen to mark themselves as such. Humans are varied, so are beasts. If some Sylvaneth can worship Arielle, and potentially some can worship Kurnoth (which I think is where this conversation sort of started?) Why can't some beasts be the 'chaos' ones, and others be the '****** that noise, we worship true chaos, and you gods don't even know what that is'? I think i'm advocating that the "Chaos" alliance is more the "Chaos from the interpertation of the Chaos Gods" alliance? No, you're absolutely right. One of my jists was that I don't know I agree that what they worship should be the defining factor of what makes an alliance going forward. If we accept that primordial chaos =/= the big four, I'm not advocating them not being beings of chaos, but since they are not controlled by the apparatus of chaos (ie, the "order" of chaos, the chaos gods or archaon, or humans that specifically worship those four) the reason for them in the chaos grand alliance AS IS, they are already an odd duck. I suppose it's my bad for considering destruction more as an alliance based on motivation as opposed to religious / political beliefs. Destruction is less about conquering, and more about destroying. So... while chaos gods and lords want to conquer, beasts want to burn and move on. They're not motivated by being the strongest or bestests (orruks?) and grots seem way to civilized. I think what keeps them apart is bringing all civilization, regardless of origin, down. I see the grand alliances collapsing and maybe the paradigm of how these alliances are set up are going to change... and if that's the case, it might not be so far fetched. Now... we might find that Kragnos brings back some old mythical Dragon ogor civilization of Azyr or something, but we'll ignore that.

The thing is chaos spawn at least have a lot of options; while i'm sure they could make a new kit, it's the one thing i feel most comfortable proxying and so on. Unfortunately we can't expect everything to get updated, so it's more like... if you could have 2 models updated, and 2 models new - what would you have updated? Chaos Spawn would just never hit that list for me.

Really? I don't mind the Gors, actually - and I feel weird about buying super old models. It's nothing compared to some of the really new stuff, but I know a painted gor still looks decent and not derpy, like the razorgor, bullgors, or even the ghorgon (in my opinion) still do. I'm in a camp where i don't 'believe' in bestigors, to my own detriment. still trying to figure out how to convert untamed beasts to beastlords or besties.

Buuuut it's not too far a stretch. If Kurnothi don't like civilization and want to burn it all to the ground, and BoC also doesn't like civilization and want to burn it all to the ground... I sort of believe there's little stopping BoC from being Destruction as is, besides their pedigree of chaos in the past. They don't even really care for the four chaos gods at all. I don't know that individual worship should dictate current alliances as much as it does, but maybe that will change in AoS 3.0. I think the point of the poster earlier is that Kurnothi and BoC, albeit for different reasons, would have a potential lot of thematic undertones that overlap, even if there was some conspicuous differences. Does AoS really need two factions that both have satyr/centaur/etc types that want to destroy civilizations... be it returning to nature or for chaos or destruction, it's VERY similar. Of course, that's not to say that will be the motivation when it comes down to it, but it's a reason for a lot of BoC folks to be skeptical that it's awfully close to the same. Who knows what GAW is going to do - there are definitely some hybrid options possible here - and frankly i feel chaos did BoC so wrong at this point they should make like the Fimir and become Beasts of Destruction. If some angry kurnothi want to dual faction in because they hate Arielle, have at it.

On the stream? they didn't (I don't think they did anyway). What happened was something like "see the star of the new book Kragnos", was written as a caption but I think that was the community team on a facebook post and I don't believe necessarily believe it - a lot of people have quoted that but during the livestream they basically said they weren't going to say anything except the name at that time, and a teaser. They definitely did not confirm that character was Kragnos then. I posted awhile back more on that, but I think that if that really was Kragnos, there would have been more conversation to that effect during the reveal. Instead they literally said we don't know who it is, and we're not ready to tell you yet. Then, there was a caption on that image. I think it very easily can be a red herring. Beastgrave started with Kurnothi and BoC, having them united in Beasts of Destruction just sounds good. As far as that dude - IDK, he just doesn't evoke what i'd expect from someone trapped under a mountain. I feel there is a certain way the "gods" look in GW, and this really isn't it. This looks like an important character for the narrative, because we know it's coming - but Kragnos? unconvinced based on that one reference.

Yes, but I think we tend to look at these posts a little too literally. People being gone doesn't mean they had anything to do with those city ruins. The speaker of those words isn't necessarily the centaur either (isn't there a mountain sort of exploding in the distance, even? like perhaps this is someone witnessing the arrival?) People being gone could be literal, or metaphorical - the world has changed. It could be the Dragon Ogors being kicked out of azyr. It could be a civilization that never existed in the lore previously (so it's just an ancient god bent on destroying whatever is left). It could be literal in that city, but the denizens of that city were something we don't know... such as old wood elves, civilized beastmen, ogroids, fimir, silent ones, something new... etc etc. It could be almost anything. There's not enough information to say much yet... and i'm pretty sure that's exactly how they want it. People deconstructing the art for the centaur/kurnothi/whatever and applying it to being the speaker / or worshipper of the speaker may well be right.. but they could very easily curve it and it be totally different. Personally, i'd love a mixed alliance faction (or herald the destruction of the grand alliances). What if Kurnothi could be either a sylvaneth subfaction/ally OR a part of a revamped BoD faction - and BoC had the same treatment - either subfactions of StD or the God Allegiences, OR part of a new combined 'beasts' faction. Honestly, i'd like that because then you can add a few units and get a lot of new flavor / options. I'm skeptical of a full new release of another faction after everything so far. I'd much rather see new factions become hybrid form so they offer something new that could be used somewhere, as opposed to starting from the ground up and getting another mini faction like Idoneth or Fyreslayers - too many tiny factions as it is!

Anything interesting to the fact the daemonbane weapon ability required both the DAEMON and CHAOS keywords? Are there currently daemons without chaos? Or is that a potential portent for later (shadow daemons or whatever)?

Yeah, they did... BUT. I'm just not sure they are correct. That centaur guy, on his own, does not look like an 'awoken god' in GW terms. This could be a change, but GW seems to relish in the opportunity to make over the top centerpiece kits. If this is a god-level, or demi-god level, you'd expect Nagash, Morathi, even the new glutos guy - something you build an army around. Could they put this guy on a fancy base? SURE! But if you're making anything kurnothi or beast adjacent, and it's something 'trapped under a mountain', you'd expect something really big, or fanciful. I think it's fairly easy for there to be misunderstanding in the community management team - IE, they likely do not know themselves who Kragnos is. They do know, however, this is art affiliated with the new book. It's pretty easy to just write "here's a sneak peak at Kragnos!" as opposed to "here's a sneak peak of the cover star of kragnos!" What if this other guy is on the cover, and is not Kragnos himself? What if it's just bringing beastgrave back to the basics - BoC and Kurnothi, with both playing a role. That's why I prescribe to the narrative (beyond no reason past my own will) that Kragnos is BoC / Shaggoth related, and the Kurnothi are going to be involved in that narrative as opponents. I also love the concept of the two being merged - but it's all speculation anyway.

I think there are a few different ways people look at it. some people have the fortitude to not just buy things they don't need because they look cool. Others see the next thing and eyes go wide. Seriously, I have entire factions worth of stuff i've never even opened because it seems every week I find something I love in this or that, or I really love about 40% of each range. It's a problem! That said, I think there are newer and older players. Those in the hobby for a long time - it's weird, I think maybe spend more money, but have also are already invested even tho the original armies that brought them in are not supported as much. The quality of the older faction models are (to me) a really hard sell on new players (or someone starting a new army, but if someone already owns 180 skavenslaves or clanrats, they're not going to want to necessarily rebuy all of those if a new sculpt comes out. Someday.... I think someone once mentioned a rumor that when AoS started, the idea was to have these mini factions that weren't really intended to grow and be supported - but obviously they've rethunk that idea. Personally, if there isn't the capacity to properly support all these factions, doing more CoSesque solutions actually feel good to me. Allies are really problematic because they're not part of the faction and miss out on a lot - but the 25% cap of narratively aligned faction seems a great way to A) expand options for older armies, get new toys for those new and old to the hobby, and also focus less on shiny new releases and models and instead fixing up the older models. Instead of more lumineth, to let them have a CoS equivalent for the pheonix guard and all of those guys for *reasons* would let older hobbyists use their toys with some new ones as well as expand options for both. I wonder if Belakor might do that sort of thing - like an army that can have up to 25% of each of the god factions, or all of slaves? Wondering how they are going to rethink undivded.

BoC is so forgotten it's often not even mentioned in the rumors of places needing an update. Yes, I suppose you can include stuff like tzaangors, i guess - but it's not really a BoC update (who need a new book and new models, both as a refresh and aspects that make them unique). Existing off the scraps of others, the ONLY named character the warband guy, and these technical new choices aren't balanced / planned to be in their army, they just have a keyword tacked on. A lot of the armies need a refresh, and proper releases. I guess there's only so much time in the year to both refresh old and put out new content. It's easy for at least half the armies to feel somewhat hard done by options / releases / etc. More factions are just going to make this worse over time, as everyone is vying for something new... ...and you have to assume part of it at least is dictated by popularity, so the cult of new is going to exacerbate this. 😐

I can't tell you much about the list, but I love the story - Khalida was almost my favorite, and this opens to a lot of really cool narrative possibilities. It would be a great 'campaign' concept, but i'd probably use AoA to make her... I do think she serves the almost arabyesque style very well. she always seemed to be about finesse, speed, archers, etc.

Well, i'd take those Fimir models over bullgors all day as count as. You're lucky you got them at all 🙂

Has anyone had any experience allying in the mega gargant with BoC? I'm generally not thinking too competitively minded, but I know it takes away a big chunk of points and all allies - but since there is so little synergy already, maybe that isnt' as big of a deal? I think it does really limit a lot of the other options because it eats up so much, but it just feels beastly / cool. I think some people mentioned it a bunch of pages back, but I don't see anyone ever comment on it! I was thinking of options on how he might be converted to a true, mountainous shaggoth. maybe find a dragon to put his torso on and just ignore that name he normally has 🙂 Also, as an aside - was there ever a reason why the fimir (RIP) were destruction as opposed to BoC? Didn't they used to (and still do) worship chaos, but sort of fell out of favor from the chaos gods' end?

woops - wrong forum

Yeah, from Beasts I look to enlightened Tzaans on foot and they're at 100 with more attacks, damage, buffs from shamans, and so on. It's hard to see a point they ever work at without some sort of warscroll change (at leasts for beasts, but it seems similar in hedonites) The thing is, I tend to think that change could be fairly minor (such as - double this units claw attacks if they have a pair of claws, or a change to the rend number, etc. :shrug:

I appreciate that really well thought out assessment. Just as a bit of .. err, a confession; I'm actually here for Beasts of Chaos as opposed to the rest of the Hedonites. The Slaangors were my next great hope of something new. So, I spent two months daydreaming about what new options this might mean for Beasts and how they might fit in. Would they replace Bullgors? I like them, but honestly i'm not a huge fan of those models. Would they be something entirely new? Would it be brayherd or warherd? (Honestly, it never even occured to me it might be neither!) So on and so forth... So yeah, no update on the winter faq, but then there was this hope of this new monster that would tear through the battlefield and give some non-tzaangor options for something new and cool. Every day waiting to see what notes they might release, then a cool article on the history of beastmen... then some rules previews of.. seemingly most other guys, but they were absent. Then the release hits, and it seemed as if the first BoC model in ages is immediately derided as.. i dunno. The worst part of a somewhat controversial book release? I was just hoping for something to use with beasts and it's sometimes hard not to feel hard done by it - at least a little bit. So I did the OBVIOUS thing... decided to pin hopes on the FAQ/Errata. No worries tho, if there isn't anything there, there's always GHB2021... eventually 😐