Ganigumo

I'll give a few of my thoughts on what I think needs to be changed, but I'll try to keep them short and targeted. The dirty tricks should all changed to always do at least something, except maybe disappearin act if you get too greedy. Points are too high across the army, even outside of gutrippaz, given their weaknesses (low movement and save), which prevents us from taking advantage of the few units that actually are costed aggressively (vultures and mirebrutes). Boltboyz are roughly equivalent to Longstrikes, doing slightly less on the long profile, or slightly more on the short one unless you invest 100-400 points in support pieces for them. They're good, but not strong enough to carry an army. The army desperately needs CP. Something that would let KB get extra, or getting double uses would go a long way. Maybe take the vulture's ability and make the bonus CP free. Shamans should be able to both cast and give out poisons and elixirs. and poisons and elixirs should just be wholly within 12" with no other restrictions. This is the big one. Boltboyz should only have one attack profile (I don't care which one). While I like the design space it plays in a lot, since literally no other units in the game use a similar system its just a crippling drawback. Its the only shooting unit that gets less range instead of more when they move, so even big yellerz boltboyz get outranged by anything with a 24" range, and even some stuff with 16 or 18 if they're fast enough. Which is game-determining when the army is basically carried by them. Skare taktics can just be removed, or it should just be a permanent -1 to hit against gutrippaz. I'm not too picky with which way it goes, but it should be something that doesn't require a dice roll. I'm not sure any of these changes would really push the army into strong territory, as I think they need to be given new tools to do that, which means either new units, new allegiance or subfaction abilities, or new command traits and/or artifacts (please rewrite the artifacts entirely) or some aggressive battleline option changes (stuff like mirebrutes, ballistas and sludgerakers). Theres a lot of other things you could do, but these are the major points of frustration in the army I think. Also give Skulbugz vulture boss battleline. I'd run 3 in bounty hunters, it would actually be great. @Arzalyn The mirebrute was useful about half the time. any armies that move up will give an opportunity to counter charge with it, and I had plenty of screens to protect it with and usually took second turn, so I couldn't get doubled. The low movement is definitely an issue. Spider riders and snarlfangs were pretty good, the base army is so slow it can make pushing onto early objectives and some of the early BT tough to score so they cover that weakness a little bit. In terms of their role they were basically just fast hobgrots. Rippa nearly got my general killed by rolling hot and killing a bunch of death frenzy stormvermin (which would have lost me a BT), and then rolled a 6 on battleshock which was pretty funny.

Played that 6 game event over the weekend, I only managed to win 1 out of 5. Game 1 was against all infantry fireslayers on head on collision. I misdeployed the troggoth and had to put him in the back. Not sure that it mattered much though, I got boxed in quickly and failed even some early BT because I failed to get my damage to stick. Lost 31-7, although getting off nasty hex to delete some HGB felt great. Game 2 was a mirror against big yeller kruleboyz on Battlelines drawn. I won 28-9, he made a couple errors in deployment and had more drops so I took the turn and had a very impactful t1. Game 3 was against oakenbrow sylvaneth on the mighty and the cunning. It went very poorly for me. We could only deploy in the first 11". I deployed so I could zone out the teleports on my side and gave away t1. He then summoned a tree right in front of me with the treelord ancient, cast an endless spell and the warsong scroll spell with it, killing a few of my screening models that were in front of the 9x boltboyz and sludgeraker (I removed the ones in front of the sludgeraker). He also cast the spiteswarm spell to give durthu +3 to charge. Then he teleported the durthu to the summoned tree, rolled an 8 to charge after a reroll to go 11" into the sludgeraker, was only within 6" of 2 boltboys, piled in along the sludgeraker to be within 3" of the boltboyz and destroyed the unit. Then teleported out. I played decently into the midgame but couldn't recover and lost 35-15. If I had deployed the boltboyz and sludgeraker further apart maybe it wouldn't have gone as poorly. Game 4 was against stormcast on the nidus paths. His list was some of the cat cavalry in BH, 3 units of EC vindictors, 2 units of longstrikes and some small heroes. The longstrikes were a big problem for me, because they outrange the boltboys, so I picked covered in mud and took the first turn to try to threaten them. I failed all 3 4+ saves, moved the boltboyz out of shooting range, and pushed my faster units forward to threaten the longstrikes while still zoning any deepstrikes, and teleported a unit of 3 boltboyz through the nidus path to shoot the longstrikes, where they failed to do any damage. On his turn he moved the longstrikes forward, towards my army, and crippled the big unit of boltboyz while moving his other units into the objectives and deepstriking the cats to charge my chaff. He then rolled the double turn and finished off the boltboyz. It still ended up being a super close game but I still lost despite getting all 5 BT, and my opponent missing one, I missed my GS because the sludgeraker with 6 wounds taken failed to kill 5 vindictors. Ending score was 25-20 Game 5 was against skaven on the prize of gallet. He had 2x20 clanrats, 2x20 stormvermin, thanquol, a doomwheel, a bunch of weapon teams and a few other heroes. He made me deploy my entire army first by starting with weapon teams, and I gave him the turn. In his first turn he doubked the doomwheels movement, rolled a 13 for movement to go 26" which let him to passover wounds to my screens (deployment lines were 22" apart), then he shot at the boltboyz, rolled an 11 to charge, which was enough to fly over my units and get into combat with the boltboyz. (So 37" of movement, 39" threat range for shooting). I unleashed hell but it survived and killed the boltboyz, but was killed in return. After that play I just got clobbered since I didn't have enough damage to deal with the rest of the army. I don't feel there was much I could've done other than maybe pile my deployment into a ball to counter that or maybe use noisy racket instead of lethal surprise but the doomwheel had plenty of damage to spare. Covered in mud was a no-go because the board didn't have any terrain I could take cover on in my deployment zone. I lost 29-9 Last game was against a super fun KO list on the silksteel nest. Gotrek, an Ironclad, a unit of 9 skywardens, Brokk, and a few other small units/heroes. They outdropped me and gave me the turn, but that let me get my 9 covered in mud boltboyz into cover. I moved up my vulture towards the ironclad and my screens up the board to score barge through. On their turn they committed the ironclad to the vulture instead of redeploying and managed to destroy it and a couole screens. On my next turn I took chose gaining momentum (choosing brokk) then took out the ironclad with the 9 boltboyz, stole and burned a back objective with spider riders, killed Brokk with the boltboyz on that side of the map, but failed the BT, because I charged the slightly damaged mirebrute into the unit of 9 wardens (with 8 left), only to completely whiff and only kill 2 models, which could then pile in and both take the objective and kill the mirebrute so I lost the BT (and the battle on the left side of the map as a result). My opponent spent their next turn cleaning up screens, then in my next turn I failed to cast nasty hex on gotrek,used AoA on & rolled super hot with the boltboyz to get a bunch of mortals and he took like 5 damage (His DR works against attacks, so it hits our mortals), then failed a 3" charge on the sludgeraker, so I couldn't finish gotrek off, so I had the rest of my army cleaned up quickly after that. I lost 29-13 I think my play was much tighter this time around, but I felt the army struggle a lot. Games 3 & 5 felt unwinnable, since I had no options to respond to the power play. Games 4 & 6 came down to some unfortunate dice rolls I think. I definitely made a few mistakes in round 1. I'm not sure if 9 boltboyz is the right answer after playing with them. Maybe 2x6 is better, to spread out the power. I'm not sold on MSU yet. It really suffers from lists that can splash mortals to multiple units. Vulture boss was still super useful, with super spiky damage. I'd love to run 2, but the army is too tight on points to justify it I think. Mean'un didn't help its damage really, since it doesn't help fix the issue of it being inconsistent. Mirebrute hits hard, but is really easy for certain armies to play around, to the point where its nearly useless (fyreslayers being a great example).

Enlightened get the bonus of you're second in the battle round, not if you fight second so between that and the better save/beak profile its a decent buff. For tzaangors if you run the math the new scroll does less damage than the old one, even with all out attack where a big part of the old unit already got +1 to hit. The banner change is also pretty bad because it only counts enemy wizards within 12 instead of all wizards, and it triggers at the emd of combat with a range of 3". Box points put them 25 points more than the current points, despite getting nerfed. Kairics' save went down by 1 and are no longer wizards. They always get the +1 rend now, the bird can mortal on a failed cast, and their dual blades are slightly better, but it seems like a nerf, especially since the points didn't change. I get that Tzeentch was a really strong book, but these units see basically no actual play, which is a shame because I love the models.

I just saw an upload of the tzaangor and enlightened warscrolls. Tzaangor went up in points and also got worse lol. (Math done with +1 to wound) Enlightened are slightly better I think. The old ability was a struggle to trigger and they get an extra beak attack, plus their save went up. Havent seen kairics yet but it sounds like they're also getting worse but only dropping 5 points, which still makes them too expensive for what they do. Guess we'll need to wait to see what the rest of the book looks like

200 point tzaangors. They better be getting a sizeable buff to go with that because thats a lot of points for 10 2 wound dudes on a 5+. The biggest hurdle to their playability since the 2e Tzeentch book was the points. Kairics also never felt like they were worth it in that book, and the 3e point increase only made it worse.

definitely Rippas Snarlfangs. I always loved them, but when I finally started painting them a few days ago they instantly became my favorite sculpt, no competition. I absolutely need an entire army of these guys!

wrong thread, oops.

I hope one of those boxes has some spiderfang in it!

Yeah but september 9th is 9/9. hopefully they make an exception 😉

oops, I got them mixed up with the underworld warbands.

This is what I locked in as my list. I've got lots of screens now, and a couple pieces that are more mobile. I wasn't sure about the second shaman in this list, I was torn between that or a ballista for gargants or as an extra screen, but this gives me a shot at the triumph. I'm not too excited about going to 3 drops, Kruleboyz REALLY want to be able to decide who goes second in this army, but the army composition makes it hard, with most of our good heroes taking leader slots.

Honestly Tzaangors are almost-good now, they actually hit like a truck if you do the math. They only need minor changes to be pretty playable. base 2" reach, so they don't lose it when gallet rotates out, and a bit of a cost reduction and they'd probably be fine, give them a subfaction and they might be great.

They were put into that model rotation thing where they go out of production and will come back periodically.

Yeah I was expecting to see more shooting than I did, which is why I thought grinnin blades would be good. I definitely don't have time to get 3 mirebrutes together by next weekend so thats out, but I do have 1. I was pretty impressed with the vulture boss. When it comes to the ballista I realized while playing that I don't mind using it as a screen at 130 points. Its a bit pricy for that job, but still 50 points cheaper than gutrippaz and actually does something in certain matchups. I might try brewing a few lists with the incarnate and see how I like it.

Grinnin blades is definitely a more balanced list. You still get a lot of what a yellers list would offer while also getting much needed protection for your boltboyz. The problem is that the gutrippa tax is a big deal, especially for a weak army that struggles to fit what it needs into a list.

I've got another 2 day event next weekend, with list submission due sunday night and I still haven't settled on what i'm playing yet 😅. I'm a bit tempted to bring troggs or leadbelchers but i'll probably stick to kruleboyz. I threw this together for big yellers but i'm still a bit unsure about giving up the protection grinnin blades gives. Its similar to my last list, but I've squeezed in a couple more units because I can skip the gutrippaz. I don't really like going up to 3 drops for the mirebrute, but I think I need another threat on the table.

40k 9th ed also dropped immediately after (and in the middle of) the initial delays, AND released on schedule, while aos stuff got pushed back months. Gargants were almost certainly intended to be a late spring release and didn't come out until september as an example. They rushed their 40k schedule at the expense of the aos one back in 2020, which is why 2021 was so loaded with releases (they needed to catch up for 3rd edition aos). Slaanesh and Cursed city were probably both intended to release in late 2020, and broken realms was probably supposed have a less frantic release schedule. We'll almost certainly have a better 2023 than 2022, given we've gone half a year already with barely anything, but I wouldn't bet on getting another year like 2021.

If gitz are a 1-hero release I'm certain it'll be the scuttleboss. The rest of the resin heroes are extra (like the hag) or unnecessary like Skarsnik & madcap shamans. That said I wouldn't be surprised if the gitz release is a little bigger than 1 hero, IIRC the updated gitz stuff was really well received and you could do a lot with a little for gitz I think. If Spiderfang could get a blightlord/stormdrake style monstrous cav kit, and a new dual kit spider rider box they'd be pretty fleshed out imo. Then troggs could get maybe 1 or two kits and be fine? maybe a mini-hag hero and another new trogg that does lumbers forward in a bit of a different way or some kind of monster trogg.

Sludgerakers generally don't underperform either, but if you're not using it for the buff a mirebrute is probably a better pick. for a couple other considerations for this list, the sloggoth would be fine here, it generally doesn't do much for KB who focus on mortal wounds, but mirebrutes are one of the few units that really like having it around. Kragnos would help the slow mirebrutes get stuck in, and a dankhold troggboss from gitz can give all your troggs in an area around him (including mirebrutes) reroll 1's to hit.

Armor saves are 1 per wound. Ward saves are 1 per damage. So as an example: An attack with a profile of 3+/3+/-/3 against an enemy with a 4+ armor save and a 5+ ward. If the attack wounds the target makes a single save on a 4+ If the armor save fails the target will make 3 ward saves, one for each point of damage, each success prevents 1 of the damage 1 fail and 2 successes means 2 wounds are allocated 2 successes and 1 fail means 1 wound is allocated You roll a 6 on the snatchaboss' grappling hook (3 damage) which deals an extra mortal since you rolled a 6 The target makes 4 ward saves, one for each mortal wound. Each success prevents one of the wounds from being allocated

I've only got 20 hobgrots at the moment, I've got some gitz stuff I could bring in though to fill the spot, like spider riders, and if I'm in yellerz I could do 3/9/3 boltboyz and maybe cut a shaman to squeeze something else in.

Got smashed at the event and went 1-4. Game 1 was in the presence of Idols against Idoneth, probably the worst matchup possible, especially on that battleplan. I could only shoot at his namarti, and My boltboyz couldn't spike high enough to ever chew through the 20 man block which kept healing up. His idols were sharks and an akhelian king which hung out in the back, mine were my boltboyz and sludgeraker. lost 31-10. Game 2 was against Ironjawz, he didn't have pigs and it was a double maw krusha Choppas list. Gave him the turn and he charged in, I made the mistake of not screening well enough and his maw krusha got into one of my units of boltboyz after killing the hobgrot screen on the charge. I then killed both maw krushas on the counter and proceded to slowly clean up for the rest of the game, with shackles blocking the brutes from getting in. won 25-17 Game 3 was against ironjawz again, Ironsunz list with one MK (with arcane tome + master of magic) 2 units of pigs and some 'ardboyz & brutes. Gave him the turn and screened him out well on the first turn, with the Maw krusha only getting to kill hobgrots. Then on the bottom of turn 1 I tried to cast shackles but the MoM MK unbound it, then had to throw all 12 buffed boltboyz, the killbow, the vulture and the sludgeraker (so pretty much the entire army) into the Maw Krusha only to barely kill it and be caught in a bad position thanks to the Ironsunz command ability and was cleaned up over the rest of the game. I lost 24-9 Game 4 vs nighthaunt, let him go first and he moved up to take the objectives, I moved forward with my monsters and took them, then won the priority roll and took the double to pull my army back into position (I was out of range of doing any relevant damage and my sludgeraker and killaboss were exposed). I screened the hit well on the bottom of 2 only to get doubled and have my army torn apart. lost 17-29 Game 5 vs nighthaunt, the prize of gallet. let him go first and he rushed the active objective, only doing minor damage to my hobgrots. On my turn I moved up and tore a couple units on the objective with my sludgeraker and one unit of boltboyz, with my vulture engaging the boat hero. I rolled the double and chose the BT to kill the half dead boatman with my general (killaboss on vulture) only for him to completely whiff and only do like 1 damage, after that he got torn apart by a bunch of small nighthaunt heroes, then in t3 I moved the sludgeraker forward to take out some of the heroes, only for kurdoss to do like 15 rend 3 damage to it. My second unit of boltboyz basically failed to roll any relevant damage all game, even with a shaman babying them. I ended up losing 23-9 Overall thoughts: I really liked the Master of magic, arcane tome, sneaky miasma, fast'un killaboss. Its damage was a bit of a letdown at times, but I found that the vulture was always contributing something as a utility piece, between being the only fast unit in the army and being able to double up on Command abilities The overall damage of the army is incredibly spiky, which makes scoring difficult since you can't rely on it. Battle tactics are not friendly to kruleboyz at all. Head-to-head is nearly impossible if you're not in big yellerz or take something like bounty hunter gutrippaz, Barge through enemy lines and desecrate their lands can be diffucult because of how slow the army is and Outmuscle and gaining momentum are tough because of inconsistent damage AND low speed. The army bleeds VP in the first few rounds because of how slow it is and how you need to castle up to protect your pieces. which means you're almost always playing from behind The army is desperate for CP, with almost no way to generate extra or use them efficiently, because it has no other tricks available to it. Kurdoss was rough since stealing CP was crippling, and the other army had olynder who also blocked a key command at one point. Fragile castles are not a good recipe for success. Killbow didn't contribute much, it nailed a maw krusha in game 2 for like 7 damage and isn't good for much except zoning out deepstrikes against nighthaunt but for 130 points its better than gutrippaz at doing that, and doesn't take up much less space. Would've been good against gargants who are starting to put up results again. I liked having it since I didn't hate the idea of using it as a screen and it helps with certain matchups Hobgrots impressed me. They did more damage over the 5 games than the gutrippaz did just through chip damage with grenades and sometimes getting to fight. Gutrippaz were literally just 180 point screens, 20 wounds isn't enough to make them anything but paper. Sludgeraker hits hard, but can't take a hit. 8" move isn't fantastic when he needs to hide behind units and also be in buff ranges but I was always able to get him into combat. Another melee threat would've been nice to combo with kruleboyz Waaagh! but I'm not sure how I would fit it into the list. Maybe a mirebrute, but move 5 would be a problem, especially since I can't use sneaky miasma on him. Egomaniak wouldn't have helped much based on the way I played, but maybe I would've played differently if I had it. Shackles are fantastic at controlling aggressive armies, if you can cast it. It might've turned game 3 into a win for me if I could've got it off If I had known I was fighting these armies, I would have gone big yellerz since I fought melee focused armies for all 5 games, although it did help against Idoneth. I'm not sure if this is a meta shift or bad luck, but most of the armies present were melee focused. Points are too high, and the army gets spread way too thin, I desperately needed an extra screen or two or some other utility pieces, despite barely having enough damage unless I spiked high on rolls. I've got another 2 dayer in 2 weeks and I need to submit the list this weekend. Haven't decided what I'm taking just yet but I might bring KB again, I'd probably struggle to paint up the pieces for my other armies I need since the GHB changes (like grots or screamers) before the event. I had a good time playing KB at least, even if I got thrashed.

Destruction's angle is actually nature. Its not a coincidence that Kragnos is the god of earthquakes. Order seeks to bring order, bending the realms to their wills (even allarielle commands the woods). Chaos seeks to pervert and corrupt the realms in service to their dark masters as part of the great game to one-up the others. Death seeks to end life. The forces of destruction are often referred to like natural disasters. Unpredictable and devastating leaving only ruin in their wake, and the armies themselves are driven by forces that are unpredictable and/or primal. Ogors are essentially giant humanoid locusts, and orruks grow and reproduce through combat. Gargants are massive, and require tons of food as well, while grots are like rabid scavengers, opportunistic and quick to sense weakness. The reason destruction gets flak for being the "npc enemy" is because its by design, they're basically the realm's way of fighting back against those who seek to tame them. If destruction wants to expand it should follow the themes, and a new force that truly embraces it would be fantastic. A firebelly themed ogor expansion could represent volcanos, but chaos dwarves could potentially fit in here too (with a bit of reinvention from the classic iteration). An army of elementals would probably be destruction at its most pure (An all incarnate army?) but there are other avenues of natural disasters that could be explored too. Floods (grots?), hurricanes, famines, droughts, wildfires, "wild" beasts etc. depending on how literal or metaphorical you take the concept destruction has a lot of space to explore.

Finally locked down a list, not sure how happy I am with it though. The 20 bounty hunter gutrippaz just feel like they'll be too hard to position effectively, especially when I can't afford to screen for them, so I cut them for a killbow after seeing that gargants seem to be doing well again. I've also got pics!

the spiders are there as chaff anyways, and the extra speed and area they can cover is nice. They'll die pretty quick vs shooting but nobody really wants to be shooting chaff in the first place. I figure grinnin blades should be enough to make shooting matchups manageable, but the spiders would help against more aggressive armies.