Zeblasky

As an owner of 40 commitioned painted Sisters of the Watch, I feel slightly depressed right now, so does anyone has any estimates how soon a new FAQ could be made?

EDIT: Please sort this thread By Date so you would not get lost in the discussion! So, Sisters of the Watch and Hadngunners overwatch got changed into this new rule for some reason. And this makes all of it very confusing. The rule goes like this, kinda simular to the core batalion ability: ‘If an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit, this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent.’ Now, this raises some questions, besides the obvious "why Sisters went up 20 when they were nerfed at the same time?". Primarily though: 1) Can you use multiple free Unleash Hell(s) from different units in the same phase? Or can you use Unleash Hell Command Ability after using a free overwatch on a different unit? 2) Can you use both free and the usual Unleash Hell on the same unit in the same phase? Because honestly, I have no idea, as rules are quite unclear on this. The most logical to think would be that this "free" Unleash Hell does not count as CA at all and does not conflict with the usual Unleash Hell. Otherwise, this would seem to be an incredibly stupid nerf to units that before were heavily balanced around the free counter charge overwatch (and without -1 to hit as well). P.S. It is also quite ironic, that units without Warscroll overwatch benefit the most from Unleash Hell, while for Handgunners and SotW Unleash Hell CA has more of cumulative effect.

By the way, I'd like to entertain the idea, that some units over time could get other generic command abilities for free on their warscrolls once per turn. Could be quite interesting with things like Redeploy.

I remember some people giving an explanation on how batalion free Unleash Hell could be stacked with the usual UH, while talking about Warp Lightning Cannons, but I can't remember their exact argument. But my main argument here is that it simply does not make any sence that way. You have units that are definetly balanced with always active and completely free owerwatch in mind. You make them more expensive, you nerf their base owerwatch with a -1 to hit.. . and then you make it so that only a single owerwatch can be active at any charge phase, both inbuild and from Command Ability. This... just can't be it. Well, even the fact that you can't double owerwatch would be quite sad. It would be such a huge irony, that units without owerwatch and without penalties to shoot in melee would benefit from an UH (pretty much an owerwatch command ability), while units with owerwatch both became weaker and can't use this CA to boost their offensive potential back up.

I was going to make a big post about that btw, buuuut it became a bit irrelevant now. The thing is, to get such stats, Handgunners need +2 to hit outside of their warscroll, because their +1 to hit will not work when enemy is within 3. And by the old rules, half of their shots would have been under -1 to hit from Unleash Hell. The only way to get only +2 to hit for Handgunners is by playing Excelsis. Hurricanum and General CA give +2 to hit and +1 to wound instead, so those stats are actually unrealistic for any other city. I will make some stats for fun later btw.

Sooo, Sisters and Handgunners owerwatch got hit hard, as now it's just an Unleash Hell without command being issued and it carries -1 with it. Just why Sisters got +20 points on top of that qq By the way, you can issue an Unleash Hell command ability together with such an inbuild Unleash Hell, correct?

So, instead of replying to everyone here, I've decided to reply directly to certain discussed topics instead. 1) Shooting units do not pay for shooting advantages. The more I do math and compare performance of different units, the more I am convinced, that almost all shooting units do pay for their advantages. Shooting units are mechanically stronger, as they can apply all their damage on any target in range, while not worrying about coherency, charges, activations or retaliation damage. But they pay for it with lower damage per turn (and much more lower per battle round), worse saves, sometimes with huge conditional debuffs (don't want to use normal moves or be in melee contact). The biggest thing about ranged units is that they also cannot contest objectives, and only a few (SotW and Handgunners mostly) can even hold objectives against direct assault. The main role of missile units is killing certain things you need to die, while being properly protected. And, even in good situations, they still need 2-3 turns of "free" shooting to pay for themselfs. And in upcoming MSU meta, it will be quite harder. And yes, even Sentinels, as NPE as they are, are still actually balanced on their own. Things that enable them to be abusive are Twinstones casting bonuses to Power of Hysh and Lambent Light for MW fishing. And even then, it's manageable. Actual worst things about this combo are that it can be so reliable and that there is simply almost no counterplay to it, besides dispelling. No all out defence, no high saves in general, no line of sight, no minus to hit defence. Only ward protection or MW negation is viable. And how to fix this situation... well, it is tricky. Rebalancing Sunmetal weapons to work on to wound rolls could be a start though. 2) New meta will be all about shooting units with screens. For some factions - probably. Is it bad? Is it worse than pure melee and/or moster spam? Is it worse than pure Eels spam? I'd say it's quite better. Having a sturdy frontline and a squishy backline is actually much better for this game diversity. It also gives huge value to fast MSU shock cavalry units and mosters, that can be used for charging down backline missiles. No rend shooting units are also quite more valuable now, as they can be used for a very effective countershooting on a usually squishy enemy missiles. Such meta will also be kept in check quite well by a fact that there is a LOT of deepstriking factions and subfacions and you can't screen those if you take too much missiles. Now, could some factions become too powerful? Could factions without decent shooting be left in the dust? It is possible, and balance has to be maintained. But, as long as Seraphon like crazy combos are kept in check, I'd say it should be fine. Lists with heavy shooting are finally viable for a lot of factions (6 currently), and mainly melee meta is thankfully long dead. 3) Unleash Hell buffs all shooting. Kinda true, but it's less about giving a direct buff to every single shooting unit you have, and more about buying an extra bullet to all riflemen in your unit. Every turn you spend CP to make one of your shooting units stronger, while the rest stay... well, the same. So the best strategy for utilizing Unleash hell is with 2-3 blocks of 20-30 models. Which also wastes reinforcement points and weakens the melee part of your force. 4) New Save stacking will invalidate rend too much. I am quite afraid of that too. Now you have 2 new sources of extra saves, available to everyone - Mystic Shield and All-out Defence. They alone can give a unit +2 to save, but add some faction specific abilities, and one or two key units in your army can ignore -2 rend, while still maintaining +1 to their save. This situation benefits no rend weapons and... mortal wounds, yep. We will have too see, if it will be too much. Easy to fix witha FAQ though, just make any extra saves not to apply to rend.

Honestly, at this point when I see people using Sentinels as a sole example as why shooting is overpowered and it all needs to be nerfed, I have a strong urge to use Cygor as a sole example to prove the opposite and advocate for universal shooting buffs. Just so Cygor could get the justice he deserves of course (/s).

Order is not important here. Druid trait does not make Nomad Prince a Wizard, so he becomes a Wizard when he takes Arcane tome. The moment Nomad prince becomes a Wizard, command trait starts working differently, so he can only cast one spell. In short, taking both traits on Nomad Prince, when he has only a single cast, is quite redundant. Don't underestimate how our good Dreadlord pal is. Even if you consider that he can take serious damage, within your and enemy turns in combat versus 5+ save or stronger Dreadlord can do as much damage as 20 Sisters of the Watch can do with 1 volley. Add a decent breath attack, and he will outdamage them. Now, a lot of it depends on if he does not get crippled by damage or even killed, buffs-debuffs, the fact the Sisters can cause more alpha -> more battleshock damage. But overall, his damage is very good. Especially in your build, where he has +1 to wound. Not as great as +1 to hit on him, but hey, you always have All Out Attack to turn him into a great blender. Wild Riders right now are most effective in units of 5 due to coherency. And flaming weapons on such a small unit is not that impactul, as on average it gives them an extra attack going through, aka extra rend 2 damage 2. It's decent, sure, but there can be better targets for this buff.

So, after realisation, that instead of Spear of the Hunt you can give your Dreadlord Amulet of Destiny for that sweet 5+ wardsave, I will be doing exactly that. It hugely boosts both his tankiness and healing on him. Damn, if only I could make him a general as well (for Ironoak Artisan) and take him with shield, then he would become close to Annointed Phoenix levels of tankiness. Now, the big question, how to equip my Nomad Prince general? Druid of the Everspring and Deepmire Cloak give me an immune to ranged caster, while Ironoak Artisan with Spear of the Hunt give 2+ save and 3+/2+/ -2 rend 2 damage weapon with Fights First on the charge. First variant is more support oriented and amazing versus shooting, but limits me to sitting in cover and does not protect on the charge. Second variant is more universal, as it gives protection both from shooting and melee (and you still have Look out Sir), while also giving my Prince some good teeth to strike at my opponent units as well. Both of those loadouts are good, but the question is, which would be better? Quite a hard choice..

Hammerhal CA only gives you an option to fight twice with melee weapons in Combat phase, not shoot and fight.

Can't believe I was so stupid to miss this universal artefact. Spear of the Hunt is good, but +5 ward in LC is way better. Thanks for the idea, my dreadlord will be running it as well from now own!

Just had this idea in New Rules thread: take 10-15 Pistoliers (battleline in Tempest Eye), find a weak enough unit, shoot it, charge it, shoot again, finish it off, then Unleash Hell when you get charged in turn. That's 3 shooting attacks within a battle round, and without any buffs or debuffs from a 15 man unit that's potentially 30 -1 rend damage for 315 points. And you still have a decent melee profile here. A specific, but quite strong setup for sure.

About the Pistoliers btw, it's not that bad for them, because they shoot after they make a charge, at the same time when Unleash hell gets triggered. And considering that it's your turn, your actions have priority, so Pistolies charge, shoot first, then they get shot by Unleash Hell. Sure, Pistolers will lose some of their melee prowess because of that, bit most of their damagr comes from double shooting anyway. BTW, a funny thought - take 10-15 Pistoliers (battleline in Tempest Eye), find a weak enough unit, shoot it, charge it, shoot again, finish it off, then Unleash Hell when you get charged in turn. That's 3 shooting attacks within a battle round, and without any buffs or debuffs from a 15 man unit that's potentially 30 -1 rend damage for 315 points. And you still have a decent melee profile here. A specific, but quite strong setup for sure, so do not worry for Pistoliers that much.

I've seen this mistake a few times in this thread, but you can't shoot after Redeploy. You either run or shoot, it's that simple.

Well, while AoS 2.0 and 3.0 balance is not perfect (poor Beasts of Chaos and Slaanesh), GW currently does not have a prejudice against old models. Seraphon was made of only WFB models (and a lot of old and ugly ones at that), yet that did not stop them from getting into S tier. GW balancing prejudice right now is more like a Russian Roulette. Cities though were somewhere in the A-B tier overall for most of AoS 2.0 We weren't the OP S tier meta at any time, but we could fight well enough with most threats. Dark Elves though... They did have a meta defining unit for a time (Scourgerunners), but not anymore (and I do not think that you want almost all of your army be Scourgerunners x) ). Still, I can give a breakdown of current DE units. Just be aware, that there could be a big FAQ soon, that can change a lot of these things. And do not forget that old DE stuff right now is divided between 4 subfactions. Strong units: Dreadlord - is actually a very competent monster now. With lance and shield setup he's decent all around, slightly faster than other monsters and his breath attack is a good help for horde clearing. In Living City Dreadlord with lance and crossbow can become Sonic the Dragon, as you can easily do a 28 inch flying move with him for a price of 1 CP. Sorceress - okay cheap caster solo, good if paired with some DE chaff for those +2 to cast Sacrifice bonuses. Her Command ability is pretty great for Darkling Covens, giving them a good boost in mobility. Darkshards - their crossbows are pretty much MP-5s. Slightly short range, can move and shoot without penalties, have lots of shots, but no rend. If you need a unit, that can freely move and shoot at low armour, they are your guys. They suffered a 15% point increase in AoS 3.0 though, but at the same time they benefit quite well from Unleash Hell even if you charge them directly. Black Guard - easy to buff unit, that will get the job done. Nothing much more to say here. Okay units: Bleakswords/Dreadspears - decent chaff, good target for Sorceress Sacrifice. Hydra - if you want to use Monster Rampages, but do not want to invest much into Monsters, Hydras are perfect. You can easily squeese 2-3 of them into your buld without much worry. And they heal every battle round, making them good for attrition fights. Drakespawn Knights - mobile and tanky tarpit. Won't kill much, but can hold their own on objective quite well. Really enjoy Dreadlord CA, not sure you should take Drakespawns without him. From meh to bad: the rest. Almost everything in DE former roster can be made to work, but some stuff is simply better. Special mentions: Assasin - on his own he is a pretty meh hero, useful mostly for unlocking Shadowblades battleline (which can be useful). But! With certain artefacts he can be much more deadly. For example, take him in Hammerhal with Saint's blade and pop him from a unit on the objective. Now you have a hero with 6 attacks, that are -2 rend and 2 damage. Sorceress on a Black dragon - After the Battlemage on a Griffon, probably the second worst unit in Cities. I wish she could be better, but compared to dreadlord she has -1 to save and almost nonexistant combat prowess of the rider just so she could be a wizard. Don't use her unless you really want to or if GW rewrites her warscroll. Choosing Cities - honestly, you have good choices here. Anvilguard seems like an obvious choice, and it is a good City for former DE. It has DE monsters specific upgrades here, Vitrioc Spray plus Darkshards equals a lot of dead stuff, bravery bomb can give your opponent -5 to his (totally useless versus Ossiarch though). But you can try almost every other City as well. Besides, I'd guess, the Phoenixium. General advice - Cities have a lot of other non DE units and you can achieve the best results by combining them. But it's purely up to you, and you have enough options to make a decent army as it is.

Annointed on both Phoenixes are great (they have a bit different roles though), General on a Griffon is a great melee blender fighting twice in Hammerhall, Dreadlord on a Dragon is a very fast unit in Living City and a decent fighter with shield everywhere else (his breath attack got weaker due to incoming MSU meta, but it's still underestimated). The rest of Cities monsters ranges from meh to very bad though. Hydras are at least very cheap and be used just to get some mosters on the field.

A bit late and a bit odd topic, but yea, CA are pretty great at listening and speaking with community. And it's not only community managers you can speak to on Discord and Reddit. 3 years ago, one of the leads on balance, CA_Duck, one day just came into the main tourney discord (it was pretty small) and stayed with us, occasionally chatting. I mean, imagine freely chatting in Discord with a GW developer. Btw, he was actually a great guy and a solid competitive player, played in 2 tourneys at least with solid off meta builds. But here's the thing. While balance and communications became much better overtime, this did not stop CA from introducing clearly overpowered or underpowered things almost every major patch, and often only fixing them 2-4 patches later (or never in case of Beastmen, haha!). Having good communications makes balance and tensions easier, but it's not a cure. But still, I completely agree, that GW should open up and be more chatty and clear about a lot of things, including balance, but I'm afraid that they are... Afraid to do this. You all have seen how much toxic rage their mistakes produced over time (especially in 40k), and GW probably do not want to deal with that directly. It is kinda understandable, but it's not the way to go in 2021. You have to be open about what you do both to lessen your mistakes as well as reduce the amount of negativity generated by them. This, 1000 times this. I've seen it so many times, and it's very hard to prove to people the opposite. The funniest example of this from my memory were Waywatchers in TW:W2. When people just never used them (besides me apparently), considering them terrible, they were pretty good. But then they've got overbuffed like crazy and became meta defining and PTSD creating unit. Then they were nerfed 4 times in a row and now they are worse that they were prebuff, but some people still considered them OP and the main and only way to play Wood Elves before the DLC. The lesson here? Don't always trust the meta and your own perception, try some brainstorming, calculations and testing, especially if what you are doing is not working (or if you just want some competitive fun). Most of the time you can find something worth the try, potentially meta redefining. Even certain units perceived as meme ones can becomes crazy effective when combined right. And trust me, there are a few things more funny than provoking nerfs on meme units because they aren't memes anymore x)

All good points, except the summoning one. Both Branchwraith and Ancient Treelord have gotten up in price, while dryads went down. And while AT has a good potential for a pet Lifeswarm, this summoning strategy is not that great even in Sylvaneth, where it benefits from a lot more synergies (more Wyldwoods, teleportation, great cast bonuses stacking, AT command ability actually being very useful). So it was hard to make Dryad summoning effective in LC before, it will be slightly harder to do it now.

Well, the only ranged units here are Sisters of the Watch (granted, they do cost 720 points). Sisters of the Thorn are hybrid casters, while the rest of my army is melee. And getting to my SotW will be quite costly if I would have a CP for Unleash Hell to spare (and I most certainly will), giving me almost a full powered shooting attack if they get charged solo (inbuild overwatch + Unleash Hell). So even if they get deployed, shot, and then get charged next turn, most of the time they will still do enough damage to almost pay for themselfs right there, especially if they deploy together, covering each other with Unleash Hell. Give them 2 unpunished shooting phases, and enemy army will start to crumble. So their actual counters are ranged units, which I have to shut down as efficiently as possible. About holding my side of the board though... that's a tricky one for sure. SotT can screen very well, Phoenix can be an unkillable roadblock... but I guess it will all be about balancing pressure on the opponent and defending my own half of the board ( I can deepstrike defensively as well). It's all very situational. True, but when you have half of your army deepstriking, as well as a lot of fast units AND Strike them melt away, your opponent simply cannot leave objectives unguarded anyway. More than that, he has to leave objectives guarded with something strong or with a lot of bodies, otherwise Dreadlord will come from the edge and uncap objective within a turn. Or you can make a 24 inch move with SotT by Strike them melt awaying to the empty backfield objective as well. Even Sisters of the Watch can probably cap with a 6x2 inch move as well and then good luck taking it back. Btw, for some reason before I was not sure if I could only control an objective with a unit near it at all times, but new rules state pretty clearly, that only enemy models can flip the objective. So, unless battleplan requires it, you only need to take control and then you can move on. Also, a fresh idea - any hero general with 5 wounds, Druid of the Everspring and Deepmire Cloak is a great caster to summon a controllable endless spell. So I'm thinking about may be adding a pet Emerald Lifeswarm for my general, but I'm not sure though it would not get denied or dispelled by my opponent anyway. Without bonuses to cast Endless Spells are quite a risky endeavour.

Why not both in Hallowheart? :3

You know, it's so weird, but in AoS and Total War: Warhammer memes have a tendency to coincide for some reason. In TW:W2 multiplayer Steam tank was a meme for pretty much the whole game existence. It had some situational niches (like versus Greenskins it could be an MVP unit if supported with healing), but other than that... And the same thing with Beastmen for some reason. They had an okay balance for most of the time, had pretty good 5 out of 15 matchups, but overall they too were at the bottom at the barrel. So since their release it became a meme, that they are a forgotten stepchild of game gevelopers, never receiving any new content or being made strong enough to be truly competitive. Until very recently that is.

Just came here to say, that Blood Knights, despite some claims, were very strong in AOS 2.0, but in 3.0 they will be definetly in need of some extra points in their cost, especially if you consider how many more MSUs will be in 3.0. They just do so much for such a low price in an army, that can support and heal them very well.

So, I've started to modifiying my list for the AoS 3.0, and here what I currently have. Not much have changed honestly, besides losing extra CP and SotT for an Annointed. Nomad Prince (General, Druid of the Everspring , Deepmire Cloak) - 110pts Anointed (General Adjutant) - 110 pts Dreadlord on a Black Dragon (Crossbow, Lance, Spear of the Hunt) - 290pts. Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix - 315pts Treelord - 190 pts 20 Sisters of the Watch - 360pts 20 Sisters of the Watch - 360pts 5 Sisters of the Thorn - 130pts 5 Sisters of the Thorn - 130pts --------------- 1995pts total Battalions: Battle Regiment (Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix, 5 Sisters of the Thorn, 5 Sisters of the Thorn, 20 Sisters of the Watch, Treelord) Warlord (Dreadlord on a Black Dragon, Nomad Prince, Anointed, 20 Sisters of the Watch) Grand strategy: Hold the Line. So, it's a 5 drop build, which would seem to be a new meta number. I could may be instead go for Command Entourage and make it a 4 drop, but an extra CP at any turn is too nice not to pass up I guess. So, 4 heroes, 4 battleline units, and a lone Treelord total. Here I've got plenty of damage, speed, as well as magical support (3 casts and 3 dispels and unbinds, no bonuses to them though). I also have 7 potential Attuned to Nature targets, so LC passive healing can potentially generate a lot of value. SotWs with Dreadlord and Treelord would go into reserve most of the time, while immune to ranged Nomad Prince general can tag along with tanky Annointed from cover to cover for objective contesting and general mayhem. I am still thinking, that even with Deepmire Cloak and constantly being in cover an Ironoak Artisan trait could be worth it for +1 to wound and for +2 to save, so my general would be not only immune to shooting, but better protected from rend in melee as well. Not sure here. As my double Strike then Melt Away tactic is no longer possible, I could also replace Treelord with 2x Dryads instead (or instead of Treelord and Annointed I could take Dryads, Eternal Guard and a Sorceress). But with new Rampages having 3 monsters is just the right ammount, so I am hesitant to leave him out if this, as Treelord points wise is still quite a strong monster. And now, counting as 5, he can actually cap objectives! So, guys, what are your thoughts?

Well, right now she is deeeefinetly underpirced. While her actual damage is not that impressive (Dreadlord even without Breath attack does 1-2 more wounds than her on average), her utility is pretty great. She is quite tanky, debuffs monsters, revives Stormcasts and gives battleshock immunity, both in AOE. If you want her to be used purely as a solo fighter, probably don't take her, unless you really need a monster hunter. If you want her to be in the middle of your formation, together with 1-2 Stormcast units and some melee CoS, then take her for sure. But she looks like a frontline fighter, not nessesarily someone for deepstriking. But beware, that she will get a price increase in the future. +50 at least, probably be even more, as her utility for Stormcasts is insane for just 300. Well, I am one of the big fans of Sisters here, but I will give you a fresh breakdown due to point changes. Crossbowmen are point wise more tanky than Sisters (worse save, but quite more wounds) and have 6 more range (which is big). You will howerer need to use more Reinforcements on them due to their unit size. Sisters meanwhile have +2 to their Bravery, +1 to move and of course an inbuild overwatch. They also do not lose their +1 attack bonus below 10 models But let's break their damage a bit better. Below are the stats for 10 Sisters of the Watch (180 points) and 17 Crossbowmen (as 17 Crosbowmen theoretical cost would be 178.5 points). First is their basic shooting damage, second is their damage with a Unleash Hell on a unit more than 3 inches away. Save Crossbows Sisters Crossbows long range overwatch Sisters long range overwatch 2+ 1.93 3.89 1.3 2.92 3+ 3.85 5.44 2.59 4.08 4+ 5.78 7 3.89 5.25 5+ 7.7 8.56 5.19 6.42 6+ 9.63 10.11 6.48 7.58 - 11.56 11.67 7.78 8.75 As you can see, points wise Sisters win with their damage everywhere, especially versus low saves. Although versus 5+ saves and lower their damage potential is very close. But what about overwatch when enemy is within 3? Save Crossbows close range overwatch Sisters close range overwatch 2+ 0.65 3.56 3+ 1.3 4.99 4+ 1.94 6.42 5+ 2.59 7.84 6+ 3.24 9.27 - 3.89 10.69 As you can see, Crossbows do pitiful damage, when they use Unleash Hell with the enemy within 3. While Sisted shoot twice, once with warscroll overwatch, and second time with Unleash hell. And due to their leader getting an extra attack each time, they get 1 more attack overall, slightly mitigating -1 to hit on Unleash hell and basically almost having a second round of shooting in the opponent charging phase. And yea, Sisters fight a bit better in melee as well. Now, which one is better? Totally depends on what you want. If you need range to reach targets behind screens and your targets have 4+ or lower armour, Crossbows are a better choice. But you will have to protect and babysit them, as on their own they are dead if something charges them directly. While Sisters can effectively fight both armoured and unarmoured targets, while being a big pain for your enemy to charge, giving them a much bigger degree of independance.