Sinfullyvannila

Scroll and Vulture are just their version of Musician and Banner, so it shouldn’t be any harder for you to remember them than pretty much every other battleline unit. and the Scroll/Vulcharch is actually pretty neat design. The scroll gives them +1 to unbind, which is really nice since that have a massive board unbind footprint compared to the cast majority of casters. The Vulcharc has a chance to deal a mortal wound IF that unbind doesn’t work or if you don’t want to unbind it so you can get the fate point. So the important thing with them is to remember that a big part of their role is magic denial/punishment. Also, Tzaangors and Acolytes both got their active profiles cut to 3/2 since now they have to choose between the two standard weapon profiles instead of mixing both.

Also from my understanding; this is why they sanction “Man reads book” reviews before release . Part of the policy is that the reviewers submit a FAQ report so that they can get these out ASAP.

You should also remember that Inspiring Presence is a thing. It won't return Pinks to the unit, but it will keep what you have from running. Changehost and any other list with Lord of Change uses his command ability every turn. This is from my personal experience with running new Horrors and using DD and inspiring presence on them. I have no idea how that top tier tournament player couldn’t pressure the Tzeentch player enough to deplete his destiny dice by the end of the game.

One person brought up the GT qualifier and then we had a small tangential discussion where the consensus seems to be that the lifeswarm is worth bringing regardless of realm. That’s hardly changing a narrative.

That’s a good question. They’d probably have to go back to something like the old rules. For every 5 pinks you lose you get a unit of 10 blue Horrors in reserve that have generally the same limitations of our summoning rules except they don’t count against our once per turn summon max. At least that puts all the headaches on the player who uses them.

There is literally nothing I’ve said in this entire thread that suggests Lord of Change is not worth 380 points.

They definitely have uses, but I hardly think that “being more useful than completely useless” is the threshold for a “plenty powerful allegiance ability”.

Oh it’s extraordinarily useful that one time each game. Then I have 4 more that aren’t really doing anything.

The destiny dice arguments are very poorly thought out. See above. We have to use 2 dice for 2d6s now. Anything that isn’t a 5, 6 or 1 is almost worthless without a 380 point model, other than in a Battleshock test or avoiding snake eyes on the one charge I cant afford to fail each game. Like, 1/5 of my games I only get a single 5 or 6. And Pinks aren’t just “handled easily” without the Destiny Dice Change, they’d be an essentially be a worthless points trap.

Anything that can take >6th place is too strong? Are you fully familiar with the Destiny Dice changes? 2-4 are essentially worthless now without a Lord of Change and without the unmodified destiny dice results rule. You may be able to unbind a casting roll of of 5. Awesome. Super powerful allegiance ability there.

You need to spend your destiny dice on them every turn to keep them from running away.

Endless Spell bomb and Lifeswarm on Horrors is a classic Tzeentch play. Nothing original about that. Just more powerful because Lifeswarm was Empowered.

#Tzeentchgate on twitter apparently.

Lol, and he’s inspiring people to complain about Locus and unmodifiable DD Battleshock rolls. Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

The only needed changes this specific tournament reveals is on the page with Changehost, and probably on the page with Conflaguration and Host Duplicitous. Everything else people are suggesting is an over correction. Based on this tournament.

Yeah, literally the only thing that this tournament reveals should be addressed is Changehost, and probably Host Duplicitous. Everything else is just a knee-****** reaction at this time.

I really don’t see a problem with it. You have a limited selection of wizards to cast it and you need to end it within 18” of the Lord of Change to dispel it for it to be worth using. So it’s a 530 point tax to bring in a model that can’t hold an objective and you probably won’t be casting all game. If it goes to “only StD” units we could just ally them in anyway.

No but any problems with Changehost is fixable by making the battalion cost 1700 points. Absolutely no need to visit any other mechanics. Especially not a core mechanic that otherwise got an absolutely massive nerf.

Gloomspite Gitz and Cities can do it through massive CP generation. Mawtribes can do it through Bully. Slaves can do it with Undivided mark. I can probably go on.

Since Battleshock rolls were always at least the second most common use of them(Cast, Battleshock, Unbind and Charge), and since the most common use of Battleshock rolls was to completely eliminate battleshock losses through the Pink Horrors’ Icon; I think if what you said were the case it would not be an exaggeration to say it’s probably the single most egregious oversight in the game’s history. I’m 70/100 confident that it is working as intended and is in fact the primary intention of the rule. My math wasn’t using it on every cast or charge, it was on using it on only using 2 2d6 rolls the entire game, and your opponent playing competently enough to burn you out of the rest of them. They won’t last you half the game on a good opponent unless you use them exclusively on Battleshock rolls.

It’s also a bad assumption that 3d3 is adequate damage at 200 points. Even with that you need to get Skyfires into melee at some point to get their points worth.

I don’t mean to single you out specifically; but does everyone asking for this to be changed know that aside from this, Destiny Dice got a massive nerf; In addition they continue to be a transparently diminishing resource, and Tzeentch continues to generate command points very poorly? There are other factions out there where battleshock is much less of an issue than Tzeentch. I believe people who don’t play Tzeentch vastly underestimate how quickly DD go. Turn 1; you spend 4; 2 on a cast, 2 on a charge. You’re already almost at half. If your opponent can hit 2 of your units each turn, you won’t have any left at the top of Turn 3. Maybe you can get 2 more from Glimpse the Future. Unlikely more than 1 from Secret Eater. In addition, Changehost uses at least 1 CP per turn for Beacon of Sorcery, so you may have 2 of those to spare throughout the game for Inspiring Presence. So unless that’s all you use them on, they won’t last half the game, and in fact, in the 5th turn there almost certainly be at least 1 unit of horrors wiped out from Battleshock.

Just remember Gaunts use a spell cast on the turn that they bring out horrors. I like this list. I’ve been running Enlightened in all of my lists so far and have found them to still be excellent hammers that are well worth the points. My advice would be to try to support them with 2 - hit debuffs to make their Visions of the Past a much safer bet. My criticism is generic to any list that brings at least one Gaunt; you are introducing an element of Alpha Strike vulnerability. I’d put them both behind your 20 unit of Tzaangors and run with your horrors to cover the board more quickly.

List requests get lost pretty quickly in the traffic that comes with a new release. If you post it now I will advise to the best of my ability. This would fall under “the most important rule clause”, in which case you should discuss it with your opponent. The reason I’ve seen it (nearly universally) interpreted as not auto-fail Protection is that the wound rolls fail on an unmodified 1. However a “1+” is not unmodified since the + necessarily informs that modifiers are involved. I agree it would be much better written as +1 to-wound with the appropriate adjustments to the damage tables though.

Just take flamers out of the Changehost battalion and it turns from a 1 drop into a 4 drop and almost all the problems are solved. Any army that can get a 3 drop and fast chaff, or high threat range shooting can deal with flamers. I’ve run the new horrors and they aren’t as broken as people make them seem. Don’t allow play by intent with their splits. Just always demand a measurement to see if they aren’t wholly within their Daemon hero and they fold pretty quickly. I hate how much time they add to the game though. Daemonrift is only good with a LoC to eat it after you cast it. Otherwise choose priority to move it and you’ll probably kill all of Tzeentch’s other leaders. You also need Gaunt Summoners to cast them. Speaking of which... Guant Summoners bring in a twofold vulnerability to Alpha Strikes. They can’t go in any battalions and their 50 wounds of Horrors are protected only by a 5-6 wound, 6+ save(conditionally better in some situations) and no mortal wound shrug model. Destiny dice on Battleshock: now that we have to use 2 dice on 2d6 rolls our destiny dice will only last around the top of 3 unless we build for regeneration, in which case we may squeeze into the top of the 4th with a couple). OBR gets battleshock immunity all game(tangentially, Petrifex is straight up better than Locus). Which of these abilities is broken? Some factions can generate enough command points to make battleshock nearly irrelevant too. This ability is very strong but not any more broken than the above examples. You don’t see it if you concede early though.