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@Ganigumo it really hurts how the LOC you get from Guild has to come in at the end of the Movement phase. Like you probably learnt, if you get it in Turn 2 it's not done much and then there's a high chance your opponent is in position to really cripple your summoning based on their positioning, or even just kill it once it's been brought in! The real bonus from Guild is the 12" immune to battleshock and the 4+ extra CP I reckon! I think you could easily swap out those Tzaangors on foot for Bestigors (if you have them?) as they are cheaper, hit as hard if not better and have similar stats im pretty sure. Yeah unfortunately Skyfires are currently underwhelming. Enlightened on Disc are just better in value, in my opinion. I think if they saw a points drop in the future then they would be more viable! But hey, at least you got to experience them. Their combat isn;t that bad though, just doesn't compare to enlightened. Maybe try Hosts Arcanum if you take more stuff on discs, because you get the free screamers, shamans and enlightened on disc could move a bit pre game etc and it gives you the auto unbinds against your enemy. Blightkings hit very hard. I hate going up against them, but they are slow! Which is good! thanks for the write up!

Had a great game on Sunday against a Soulblight list (never played them before)/. We ended up playing total commitment, which I think is an awesome scenario for tzeentch as it allows us to build up some momentum with spells, summoning, movement/blocking etc and the fact that it's played on such a long board means that even if you take turn 1 then get double turned it doesn't hit as hard as it would Turn 1. I played my Pyrofane/Witchfyre coven combo and it worked well. Had a big blob of 30 Kairics that just couldnt do much because he made me -1 to hit from his Hero's aura, which even with the re-rolls from the fatey boi still hurts a bit tbh. Must say, anything on a zombie dragon or terrorgheist just hits so hard and turned my big blob of kairics into a melted ice cream sandwhich on a hot aussy summer day! Still managed to get the win in the end, but it was mostly down to the high movement of the enlightened on disc, the summoning of blues in my back line and him just not prioritizing his movement. The gent I played was awesome, plays a lot fo 9thEd still and not much AOS so he was a bit green on the rules etc, so I feel like with the list he took and if he had of been up to speed with the current meta, he may have snagged the win in the end but I ended up getting it on points. Took the extra CP this list and yeah it really helps. Especially because by turn 2 I had 4 and having that safety net for battleshock on both horrors and kairics is ust great!

Didn't even think of that! You the man! Agree it's not really worth it, costs too much for what it is and offers and most of the time you probs wont be trying to fly over stuff JUST to do MWs, even with their high movement.

@Asimov then if you're into the shooting and Magic with Daemons and Horrors, I'd say check out the Changehost Battalion coupled with the Eternal Conflagration Coven. This is mostly the most competitive Daemons build at the present, as it's got a lot of Magic, Shooting and if you buff your units correctly, can ht pretty hard in Melee as well. Especially if you're using the Chamon Realm. There's a lot fo lists floating around for the Changehost and Eternal Conflag combo, and a few that are floating around this Forum a few posts back, but in the spirit of laziness, here is a list that I have written for you as a base* of what it may look like, depending on what you have in your collection: *This is just a rough guide though, but leaves you 50 points to play with for the extra CP (recommend taking) or extra endless spell.

You're welcome. Just to correct myself though - The Cult of a Thousand Eyes coven from Wrath of the Everchosen book, might not be the best for the Tzaangors as Tzaangors don't have the "Mortal" Keyword, and the coven focuses on Mortals - apologies for that just wanted to correct it.

@HMB then you're in luck. I'd check out the "Cult of the Tranisent Form" coven or even the "Cult of the Thousand Eyes" coven (from Wrath of the Everchosen book) and they will give tzaangors a decent buff, albeit I think the Cult of the Tranisent form coven is a bit more situational / looks better on paper than on the battlefield? Check out the Tzaangor Coven Battalion as well. It's Exxy as (in both cost for your list and also model wise) but has a great perk for taking it. You can also take either the Tzaangor Enlightened on Foot and Disc to meet the requirements, so some good options there. I think the Tzaangors on foot are pretty over costed atm unless you take them in a blob of say 20 and just make them a murder unit with the Magister following them around and give Tzaangors the paired weapons because you get +1 to hit, then adding the +1 to wound for an arcanite hero being wholly within 12" of the unit. Also consider the Fatemaster for his ability to burn a CP and re-roll all hit rolls. If you find the Battalions for Tzaangors a bit too much in terms of points cost, then maybe check out the Phantasmagoria of Fate battalion from the Beats of Chaos book. Ends up being a 1 drop, but you might have to take some Beasts of Chaos Units (which Tzaangors are anyway). Might take it to a 2-3 drop depending on how many Arcanite Hero's you take. I only use Tzaangor Enlightened atm and will use Skyfires when they are finally built, but I'm not overly versed in using just the reg infantry Tzaangors on foot sorry. I prefer the Kairic Acolytes at the present, as I feel I get more bang for buck with them. They don't hit as hard as what a unit of Tzaangors could, but they also get a spell, 5+ save and 6+ DPR for their shield and most of the time you're really only taking the one weapon which is fine. In a bigger blob theyre more effective, much like Tzaangors, but cost less. Hope this helps.

Hey mate, are you mostly running Daemons or Mortals/Arcanites? Are you after more magic/shooting/combat that kind of thing?

Yeah, plenty of ways. I think that anything from the Host Arcanum coven to the Guild of Summoners coven in the new tome fits Arcanite builds pretty well... depending what you're trying to do that is. Do you have any units/models in mind you want to run, or are you going for any theme/build in particular? Daemon hero's are always still worth it as well in an Arcanite list imo.

Yeah @Gwendar nailed it really @Elevenist. Pinks are great for a competitive system, but the worst thing is that even when they split and split again, you still have to add whatever models died to the battleshock they have to take, which is brutal when you think about a screen of 20 might run if something hard hitting charges it! I've resulted to running one as a screen only now and also to get an extra spell in if I'm given first turn but usually I run acolytes at the present. Honestly, for 150 Points you can get more value (In my opinion) for a blob of 20 Acolytes, 1 unit of 20 Maruaders, 1 blob of 10 Chaos Warriors or even 1 blob of 20 Bestigors which comes in at 240 points but man do they hit hard! Thy also have terrible bravery though lol.

Basically this mate. I'll be doing the same. So much easier. Yep takes time but hey, worth it. Yeah Lumineth are rough but by playing more and more games against more and more armies and different people, i'm learning that nothing is "Broken" as such, just mechanics are a bit OP and that overall, it all comes down to how well you know the game and also how to play it, with any army. Good luck with your Game and let us know how you go!

@Gwendar so I played it last night on TTS v Lumineth and wow.... was that an interesting game! First up I forgot a lot of what I was meant to be doing, again lol, no surprise there. Ive used AOS Reminders before, but like you I just forget to even read that tbh and also I just hate having to read heaps of walls of text. SO, to combat this, Ive decided Ill write my own AOS reminders, but in a more step sequence of events due to knowing mostly what everything in my list "does" its more the order of things im messing up! So Ill see how that goes! The game however was close but rough! We played total commitment and whilst I really liked the board setup For Tzeentch, its a great way for us to deploy far back and also hold our own objectives for longer, it was also pretty brutal in the sense of what lumineth can do! It was my first time playing them and I was really impressed at the tools they have! Big T can cast a spell to make you spend 2 CP whenever you want to use one - in my list last night I kept forgetting to roll the 4+ extra CP and when I did I didnt get it anyway, brooootal - and then my fatemaster got shot off anyway by the 20 or so shooty Aelves WHO GET LINE OF SIGHT ON A WHOLE UNIT IF THE LEADER CAN SEE IT! That blew my mind! Then they a spell i think to be able to pass bravery on a 2 up then pass all slain models onto a unit of their choice to lower that units bravery as well. I think my Enlightened were -26 bravery at one point? MENTAL! But also just another thing to have to learnt o play around. Because of GOS I managed to get two LOCs on the board pretty quickly which was nice and there were some awesome clutch rolls that if I had of made would have killed Teclis but he managed to survive and also my opponent managed to win the game by Turn 5, so it was a great game overall and Tzeentch has a few answers to the amazing casting that Lumineth can do, but I think one of the best Covens for that would def be Hosts Arcanum, getting the auto unbinds when you need them! Got a game on Friday that will be IRL so will test my GOS list against Slaanesh I believe. Never played them before so will see how it goes and also do some more tweaks. One thing I like about the GOS list was the auto pass bravery on the Kairics, but learnt that its not that great to have my pinks in range for it if you have a banner, so keeping them just out to force a Battleshock is well worth it if you have the DD! Ill be focusing on this list for the immediate future until my tournament thats coming up, then ill be focusing on different lists/covens to play in.

Had a 1500 point game last night against Gloomspite. Ran a watered down list with the Pyro/witchfyre coven that I posted above, most notably including the 30 block of Kairics, x 2 ten man units of Kairics, Fatemaster, x1 unit of 6 Enlightened on disc, Tzaangor Shaman and Fluxmaster on disc. We played The Blades Edge, where whoever is taking 2nd turn after round 1, gets to burn and objective. Had a lot of success with the big block of 30 doing some heavy wounds on units getting the re-rolls of hits in both shooting and also melee from fate-dude, which is great, 1 10 man unit of Kairics didn't even get touched which was seriously a huge benefit as they were doing some great shots here and there even without re-rolls. Enlightened did what they did and my opponent didnt realise they re-roll everything if something within 3inches fights first (I probs should have remembered to tell him tbh because he hadnt played Tzeentch before so that's a mental note to myself) but he didn't make that mistake again. I got the win, only just, but I played very sloppy and burnt the wrong objectives (making hard decisions in friendly games is also quite challenging lol) and also made some mental notes about the list I ran which are: - Pyrofane is great for the +1 to hit for the shooting coupled with the re-rolls from the Fatemaster. Couple with this for the inbuilt CP spend to re-roll wounds and you're doing a lot of Damage. - Need to remember to do the extra mortal wounds to a unit if it suffers any wounds from shooting as part of the coven, I really didn't use this and always forget it. - Using Kairics as a screen, the 10 man blob, to protect the Enlightened and also holding the enlightened back til maybe 2nd or 3rd round (at the latest 3rd round) is really doing me a world of good instead of flying them up the board Turn 1 and trying to wreck face UNLESS its just something suuuuper scary that will def wreck face. *Looks at OBR and their Harvesters/Multi arm guys* - The high movement of stuff on discs that our Hero's can make is amazing for mid to late game objective snagging and dumping a blob of say 10 Blues, coupled with the agenda of everything counting as two models - def never under estimate this! - For anything with Witchfyre/Pyrofane coven orientated you need to buy an extra Command point. Im pretty much sold on this. and Ill explain why later. - In the list I took last night there was so much that I dindt use, like spiteful shield on my Fatemaster which gives him the Destiny Dice on saves of 6's. This is suuuuper important to do if youre taking a save of 12 wounds, which I did, and he died, and I didnt get any Destiny Dice. - NEVER be afraid to use DD for spells to get your summoning up. Also let people have mystic shield. its really not that scary tbh and is cheap summoning points. To my point of the CP. Taking a blob of kairics in 30 is great because of the extra Bravery you get putting them at 8 until they take some wounds, no problem. But honestly, you REALLY want that blob to stay around for as long as possible. If you play that unit right its going to be the work horse of the unit and the opponents i have played seem to focus most into it forgetting about the other 2 units of 10 which free's them up a bit. Even if you 2nd turn round 1 and you have an army up in your face, you'll be spending that CP on re-roll hits and then one on battleshock, unless you can DD it but then you'll still lose some anyway - again all down to what you lose/how much really. Which is what I found is annoying because if you burn both CPs turn 1, you're always on the back foot post Turn 2 for anything that you may need to auto run, auto Battleshock pass and various others. Which leads me to either A) buy the extra CP or (B) try out the guild of summoners coven. Guild I like the look of a lot and the reason for that is because I can make the fatemaster my general, giving him the ability to roll a dice in my hero phase and then on a 4+ get the extra CP. Super handy if Ive just spent one for the Fatemaster to re-roll hits. Whilst I dont get the +1 to hits for shooting and re-roll wounds in the shooting phase at all for a CP spent, its honestly not toooo bad because they are hitting on 3s to wound and still re-rolling. The loss of the extra D3 mortals on a unit that takes any wound after they have been shot might also be key - BUT IM A DERP AND NEVER USE IT ANYWAY SO I WOULDNT KNOW the real kicker is that the Fatemaster gets given the Artefact of the units wholly within 12 inches are immune to battleshock. THAT is worth it in my opinion for Kairics atm, even given the bigger blobs bravery and what not, they will still HUGELY benefit from it, also, put a unit of pinks in the front and then you have the screen you need to protek the unit. It works in my mind anyways The other real nice thing is that even if you dont buy the extra CP in this coven, you can still use one of the others your more free to use on the Enlightened IF youre playing in Chamon. This is the inbuilt CP ability and you add 1 to hit rolls for them in combat, coupled with the shaman's +1 they hit a lot more effectively now even without the re-rolls. quite nice tbh. Then we go onto the summoning. Adding in another 2 cast or even 1 cast Wizzo, and then you get the scribbles on a balewind and you potentially have an LOC on the board. Im conflicted about this tbh. Im becoming a huge fan of Blue being on the board for objectives. BUT the LOC, if kept at a distance but within spell range, and behind a screen unit *Looks at that block of 10 kairics to soak up some wounds* is kinda survivable and also has some decent movement. Plus the extra two spells (which you wont benefit from straight away but can be clutch to do MWs because of his inbuilt spell AND the Spell you give him when he comes onto the board, can really do some damage. But you wont expect to do this until turn 2 or even 3 really, depending on how those spells go! Against Lumineth I dont see this being viable at all. Chamon seems to be my favourite realm to play in atm. The extra save spell is great and quite easy for us to get, the extra +1 to hit in the combat phase is nothing to scoff at if you can afford the cost of the CP (hoping guild will help with that) and also every scenery piece is entangling which stops a lot of horde and faster armies being up in our face and alot of the time I'm finding lists that im running dont need to be riiiiight up in the face of the opponent unless its enlightened and then you can DD them because they cant be modified! So im about it. Anyways - this is more a mind dump really, hope it helps peeps. Still sorting out artefacts that I think are best but im really keen to try the Guild coven with my list im running atm and will def try and post results if I have a game with it and can remember everything of the game

This was my other thought, and I'm trying that tonight at a 1500 point event, so will see if that one is worth it in the end. It's all to do with wording right! a lot of people miss that and it can be a huge tactical advantage to tie up two or so units. The worst and most underated thing I think is tying up a huge unit, like 6 Enlightened, with something like two Gors! it's happened to me before and now my Enlightened are wasted stuck with two gors when they need to be killing something bigger and scarier!!! So a Spawn tagging some units is suuuuuuper helpful for sure!

LOL - I can imagine 10 of the darkest knights fighting with pool noodles! Totally agree, and I haven't had much of a chance to actually use this combo - but i'm painting my Kairos Bird up and on the hunt for a good Belakor kit bash so it'll happen one day! Also i agree with your comments re: giving you turn 1 and also the spawns coming in! Love the Kairos combo with Magister on Disc. Couldn't agree more. The Aura on the flamers is well worth it because I shoot with the Exalted first into the Horde/dangerous units, then with flamers still getting the buff on the Exalted. The 2+ to hit is fantastic, but having no rend makes it a lot easier to save against. I def see your point though on whether or not taking the Aura is worth it... thing is though, given the Hero's I have it's really only viable to give the Fatemaster an Artefact which is the Spiteful Shield (giving the DD on a 6 to save) which is also nice I guess... and possibly worth it, but I also don't get him into too many combat situations if I'm honest, because I'm trying to leaverage him for his movement / summoning... But you're making me think @Gwendar and wanting to play more games lol. Yeah I should have a game penciled in this week coming so I'll see how the list goes. Look forward to your batrep if you do one!

Toying with this Pyrofane Cult/Witchfyre Coven list for a Tournie I have coming up soon. There's a few things that are wrong with it for good reason, the fact that the Pyro Cult artefact is on the Fatemaster who has no shooting attack to start, but this is to be able to give the aura of mutability to the Fluxmaster on Disc to buff the Pinks. Couple that with the Pinks inbuilt spell of +1 to Hit, also possibly re-rolling their shots if deployed with the Fatemaster correctly, and then also the Fluxmaster adding +1 to wounds from the Artefact it's making them a bit more nastier, in a single block of 10. Put the big unit of 30 Kairics behind the pinks so they don't get charged, along with the Fatemaster and you have some pretty decent block of shooting and also magic from the Flux if he does his inbuilt (if not needing to do Fold = very risky play haha). Both the Shards and the Shackles to slow the enemy down and also the Shards mechanic is less likely to come back at you if you decide to take the turn if winning the roll off, which I much prefer. Shackles doing their slow movement which is great just need to make sure you dont end up anywhere really. Also deploying the Enlightened behind the unit of 10 Kairics (very much the weakest part of the army in the list being a unit of 10) so that they can avoid the charge if they are charged, the kairics can take the beating then the Enlightened get the re-rolls potentially. The other block of 20 Kairics holds up a bit better on it's own, but I think honestly could use the support of something like the Blue Scribes to hold an objective (CP for Battleshock) and giving the Scribes the Chance to either cast Tzeentch's Firestorm or even Bolt on the 2+) is great. I just don't know if Pyro/Witchfyre lists should be taking the LOC at this point given how high the Battalion costs, the cost of the LOC and also what you need to make it a bit more viable. Also after using a block of 30 Kairics, I honestly think it is the ONLY way to go now with this combo, and if you can maximize the size of their units you should everytime. It really hurts not getting a discount on them though - even a 40 point discount would be welcomed in my mind, because it leaves a lot of room for adding things in. Not sold on the Endless Spells, but honestly, running and charging is something that just hurts hard Turn 1 for Tzeentch, so most of the time i'm finding that im going first and blocking the Enemy's movement or even just forcing them to not go places and filtering them into the big blob of 30 kairics and the Pinks, is really helpful! That board control is really critical atm with the local and emerging wider meta im finding. Honestly the best way I've found to use Enlightened is to hold them back a bit, don't just push them out front straight away and make the opponent fear them for longer. Also because of their movement, snagging late game objectives is HUGE, same with the Fluxmaster running over somewhere, dumping some blues, then heading somewhere else later. Always put the Blues in front of him though - learnt that the hard way :s. Any and all feedback is appreciated / welcomed! Still tweaking it atm, but i'll mostly be sticking to the above and tweaking as needed. Side note: Previous list has included x6 Flamers and 1 Exalted, hiding behind a line of Kairics and also coupled with the Fluxmaster, which instills a lot of fear as well, but it doesn't really cut the mustard too well I have found, albeit I could be playing it wrong. Edit: stuffs.

@Gwendar my only feedback is really on your Arcanum list, and swapping out the Chaos Knights for Chaos Chosen, and for the sole reason of Base Size and being able to maximize the output. I think the Base Size of the Knights in a block of 10 is not really worth it, for 10, but two blocks of 5 is. Getting the Chaos Chosen in though and maximizing their output is even better, especially if with the extra points you took a bridge to get them where you want? Also, the sorc on foot would be able to keep up with them easier than the Knights. Most interested to see how your Duplicitous list goes! Looks tasty and fun as! Also if you got all spells off, double turn and then summon in another two units of Blue or unit of Pinks thats just awesome! I'm finding that Blues are the best bang for buck in terms of summons at the moment with the magic heavy lists. Also love seeing Chaos Sorc Lord on Manticore in any Tzeentch list! Spesh with Kairos!

@Tizianolol You really want to keep the fatemaster in the witchfyre/pyrofane combo list for the re-roll hits and then the CP ability of re-roll wounds, especially if you're shooting with a block of 30 Acolytes twice. Definitely adding the Shaman is key for any skyfires and enlightened and also arcane suggestion or shield of fate at long ranges post turn 1. Ogroid is great with infusion Arcanum on himself, but also I have found him to be quite unreliable and slow. You really want to capitalise on Tzeentchs high movement in a competitive setting really.

@Gwendar I missed that! good that they can be taken, because now i'm more inclined to get one lol. I reckon they will hit hard, and would have to have similar rules like Ogor's where they count for more than one model on objectives! But agreed, keen to see their warscrolls. not long now! I really want to see a Tzeentch Giant now!

@Graywater thanks for the explanation. Makes sense and I really agree with your point about getting little out of the Battalion for such high points. doesn;t make sense. @Chumphammer (great name) couldn't agree more about the shadow warriors and love what they can do, going to 20 as well is even better Thanks guys for the input. @Ggom I was thinking the same having looked at what gets you battle line etc on Azyr, in a DOK list, and then looking at the Shadow and Pain box. Hoping that they also come out and say that any new battalions etc that are valid in that box are valid in matched play after it's release, as they have done just this past week with other Battalions. Edit: Answered my own question re: Building what models, used my eyes and looked at the GW site, also just ended up commiting and buying a start collecting box.

Looking at DOK and wondering about this comment. Could you elaborate as to why Blood Stalkers aren't worth the points and why Temple nest is a bit crappy? Is it because of the need for the x2 units of the Stalkers? Seems everyone here is suggesting that Blood Sisters is the way to go for the snek side of DOK.

@Gwendar and @SleeperAgent Tzeentch is my second army after Stormcast (got them when getting into the hobby) and they will be my staple/fall back to when I delve into others and go through similar motions you guys have described above! Something about Tzeentch that just nails it for me, much to what you described above with the Magic, Shooting and some Melee to boot! Also, apart from Flamers which ill admit im coming around to, the models are just awesome. Used to hate screamers now I just love the idea of sky sharks floating about biting everything! Edit: @Gwendar Son's do look awesome! And I'd love one of the real huge ones to be able to be allied in to a Chaos army!

@SleeperAgent thats a huge haul of plastic crack! Well done! Nothing better than smashing the bank account and committing to the buy of a new army! depending on how many pinks you end up running / summoning, you'll want a lot more blues and brims! If I can give you any advice on building The LOC is that if you build it with the arm underneath the chest not extended out is that you do that as a sub assembly. Happy building!

Let's set it up! I'll ping you on discord and we can organise a game when im home after work.

@Gwendar LOL I do know you love those skyfires Mate your Thousand Eye list is looking very similar to mine! I have 40 Marauders as well plus a few other units, but ill post it when I've had a bit more thinking put into it! Yeah can agree with you that Pyrofane is much better w witchfyre but im getting a bit bored of the Kairic + Enlightened combo I usually run. I could run some on foot tbh, but the movement and shooting from Flamers is always fun and creates some nice lil zones I find! Yeah the 2nd list is something that I want to practice on TTS before I invest into it, but I like it's potential/I think it has some merit, albeit needs a bit o tweakin' here and there!

@Gwendar I dig the Arcanum list, spesh because it mixes in mostly Mortals! Be'lakor with his ability is too good to pass up these days. So crippling. I don't think I would change anything of the list but def (as someone mentioned above) try taking one of the Slaves to Darkness spells if you can fit them in with the remaining points. Or just aim for the Triumph, as it's always decent to take those re-rolling wounds one I reckon. I still prefer Enlightened on Disc but since we have been posting, you've made me keen to try out Skyfires again so im going to play a game with them in the coming days to give them another go and see how they fair! So i'll let you know. Sorry its been ages since I said I would post this, but here is a couples of lists that I've put together recently that I think would be a fair bit of fun: LIST 1 LIST 2 So with list 1, basically you get a bit of the best of both worlds. The Chosen buffed in a Tzeentch list are mental. It chops through anything however they can be quite slow. But this doesn't really matter because mostly you'll be running them turn 1 anyway to get where they need to be. Coupled with the flamers, you can create some zones of fear I found. Majority of the list is self explanatory I think, but if anyone wants me to go into the thinking behind it let me know. Also the high spells means highly likely to get a unit of Pinks on the board Turn 2 (provided all goes to plan )! Second list is something im still tweaking (haven't actually built nor played with so is all paper theory atm) but would love to give a go! I really want to make use of the flamers and the warpflame host with the idea of them being a bit more scary to be charged or to end up within that 9inches of to suffer more wounds. The Chariots im on the fence on, but, their warscroll is what gets me because the adding +1 to hits applies to ALL the attacks of the unit, so those flaming maws and blue horrors and lamprey bites get the +1 as well. Which is always nice in melee, and with their high movement they make it easier to do the MWs on and it's on a 2+ which is nice. thats really all these guys are there for and to provide the extra "exalted flamer" buff incase the other one dies. Plus you dont see them a lot which is cool and I really enjoy playing and building unique lists. The thing I think this list will suffer from is board control/anything that is going to come from board edges etc. high movement is great to counter that but it is still a squishy list so could go either way! I'm trying to tweak a Cult of Thousand eye's list as well, which I really love the idea of. Those D3 enemy units re-roll hits is really invaluable! @Warmill your army looks great so far! please keep the photos coming! Loving those Kairics and Pinks! @SleeperAgent the Tzeentch Start collecting box is up there with some of the best value you'll ever get from a SC and youre on the money about what you can build! I'd highly recommend Kitbashing a Fluxmaster out of one if you dont like the Resin/finecast model. It's super handy and I have come to use it in a lot of lists and he has become a critical model I find. I agree with Frowny in that you'd chuck a LOC in there and you have yourself a solid start for lists if you go down the Daemon heavy route. Anyways, Happy Monday all!