Landohammer

This right here ^^^ I am curious what Ragest thinks is the proper deployment vs 30 Sentinels.

I don't mind. I was playing Sylvaneth so I summoned a forest on the top of 1 and teleported as close to his sentinels as I could. Naturally I failed the charge which left me much closer to them. However he did have a spell portal so I'm not sure I would have been safe from lambent light anywhere. (though I think my forests may have blocked line of sight from portal, not sure). No I play Lumineth quite I often and win as many as I lose. Overall I think they are just a strong faction, not necessarily OP. Its sentinels I take issue with. My list had no ranged or magical threat. (and honestly Sylvaneth doesn't do either of those well). I have found in my past experience with lumineth that simply rushing them is the best option. Once Sentinels and/or Teclis are dead they lose their primary means of controlling the board. Then you just have to deal with Eltharion and Dawnriders lol. You are coming across as a bit aggressive mate. I am really surprised that everyone finds this so unbelievable. So 17 is average but 20 is impossible to believe? What is that like +17% above average? Lets also not forget this is from battleline units and a single wizard. That is a pretty bonkers amount of output at range for a single turn. Let me clarify that I am not accusing Lumineth as being OP. But the faction does have tools that exacerbate the impact of an already overperforming unit. This scenario was a good example of that. But overall Lumineth are fine as a faction, its just the sentinels that I complain about. And to clarify, I lost this game when I decided to bring Sylvaneth lol.

Don't quote me on this but I think Lambent light targets an enemy unit. So ideally he could dump all of his archers into that unit making 20 damage a lot more reasonable. Also don't forget of the normal non/mortal hits which actually become quite powerful at close range. (aka normal range for any other archer unit) So the original Slaanesh coded and Sylvaneth codex came out around the same time. One was likely the most overpowered codex I have ever personally witnessed in warhammer, and one is probably the worst codex in the game right now. And while the jury is out on new Slaanesh, I think we can all agree new DOK and Lumineth are several tiers above it. So we are beginning to see a longterm pattern of releases that demonstrate a complete unwillingness to properly playtest. Incompetent may not be the right word but its pretty close!

So Sentinels + Lambent light really did the work. The CP and Bravery debuff just kind of put me out of my misery quicker lol. But without those debuffs I would have still been testing on -4 which would be tough roll to make/use inspriring presence. But in context this was on the bottom of turn 1 and I think any of their wizards can reliably cast lambent light. I effectively lost 1/5th of my army and my opponent didnt even have to move. This is debatable, but I personally find Teclis to be a point sink and he really only excels vs armies who can't function without CP or magic. But regardless of Teclis, Sentinels are broken AF at their current cost and I will die on that hill.

30 sentinels + lambent light + warscroll spell (5+ to hit mortals) + 2x CP spell + -2 bravery spell So he rolled 30 dice and did 10 mortals on the first roll, rerrolled all of the 1-4's with Lambent Light and got another 7 ish mortals. I then failed a few of the saves on the regular non-mortal hits for a grand total of 20 wounds. Because he doubled my CP cost I couldn't burn inspiring presence. So I tested at -6 with the debuff. He had teclis so many of these spells were auto casted, and IIRC sentinels can get a +1 to cast (and potentially a reroll maybe?). Not that it mattered because my wizard wasn't even close to dispel range. (Remember Teclis can auto-dispel so if you want to even have a shot at a spell you have to keep your wizards far away). Lumineth are an absolutely brutal army from range.

You are correct. And this is what I did to some extent. I made him eat through 3 units of spites and 2 summoned units of dryads. I even screened with my Branchwraith to some extent. But that playstyle is super limited on what battleplans it will work on. Because I am functionally forfeiting any objectives in his territory it means, at best, I can play for a tie. Tree Revs may have had some use but this particular list has several melee characters that camped objectives and could have EASILY disposed of 5 revs. I stand by the decision to try for the alpha with Durthu and hope for the 4+. Had that single dice roll went in my favor I could have perhaps did enough damage to berzerkers so that they didn't auto-kill everything they touched later lol.

Fair. But i'm not sure a point hike is enough for Sentinels. I played a tournament practice game vs lumineth recently were 30 sentinels wiped a unit of 6 Kurnoth Hunters in a single shooting phase. The reliability and range of their output is absolute insanity. And when you put it in the context of an army that can debuff bravery and 2x CP cost, it just exacerbates their impact.

Excellent question. Honestly it makes no sense to me. I just know they usually cast in resin and are often of such dubious quality that its hard to distinguish between true FW and recasts. To the point that many people require a proof of purchase. My advice to new players is just steer clear of their stuff, unless you buy it used at a discount. They are extremely expensive and tend to get dropped from matched play seemingly at random.

So basically like Sisters of the Watch? We are approaching a point of imbalance in the game where the community needs to get involved. Kroak, Sentinels, Hearthguard, Fly High, Flamers, Snake Ladies and Eels need immediate action. 20% temporary point hike on the named units until a FAQ hits. We did it before with Swedish comp and we can do it again if necessary.

I effectively did just that. The issue was that Neferata has a -1 to hit Aura. Putting 9 Scythes and Durthu at -1 to hit is absolutely brutal. He also put 3 mortals on Durthu with a spell so he definitely knew how to mitigate durthu's output. Combine that with some mediocre rolling and you end up with zero damage output lol. So berzerkers are already S tier infantry in my book. Their movement is supposed to be their biggest (and only) weakness. But when you give them the ability to deepstrike and trigger ASF, it completely negates that weakness and just makes them essentially unstoppable unless you have a ton of shooting. This just pushes me back to taking some allied shooting. (or just fielding Sylvaneth in Cities so I can take a Hurricanum).

Tournament update! I took durthu and 21 Kurnoth Hunters to a 2-game friendly tourney. We were covid-capped at 10 people. Here is a quick summary of my two games. Vs Legion of Blood. (Blades Edge) A cool army with a Vampire lord on dragon, Neferatta, and a bunch of blood knights. His bloodknights and Zombie dragon wrecked everything they touched. Frustratingly Durthu and Scythes managed to whiff multiple times in combats that should have been easy. The greatsword hunters carried the team, and my squads of 5 spites punched above their weight in a few fights. I also lost every priority roll which didn't help. The game came down to a fight over a single objective, where a 5+ save roll on my last hunter decided control of the objective. Sadly I failed it and lost 11-12. Great game! Vs Fyreslayers (Forcing the Hand) Because of how the wins/losses fell and my higher VP score, I got paired vs a winner and this list was brutal. 40 Hearthguard berzerkers, and all the characters to support them. I knew this was basically unwinnable, but rather than playing for the tie (like a smart person) I tried to play aggressively , betting everything on Durthu getting his stomp off. Naturally I failed the 4+ and they used their always strike first command ability to easily kill durthu and then wipe out my unit of Scythes. I counter charged with two units of greatswords but failed both charges. A single unit of Hearthguard killed 1400pts of my army. Luckily between my spite screens and some lucky dryad summons, I was able to effectively stall the majority of his army and stay ahead on objectives. However by turn 4 everything was dead and he was able to run onto my objectives unopposed, for a brutal 8 point gain on the bottom of turn 5. So I lost 16-20 Summary Lost twice, but had a blast. I felt like I did about as well as Sylvaneth could do in a tournament full of good players. The first game definitely felt winnable if my dice hadn't failed so hard. But that particular fyreslayer list felt unbeatable, at least not without shooting to snipe out his characters.

Yea I play 6-3-1 on my free forest, and 1-1-1 on my summoned forests. Enforcing 6-3-1 on summoned forests would make them effectively unplaceable on any regulation terrain board after turn 1. I play in a lot of tournaments and everyone is cool with using the warscroll/codex restrictions.

Yea this is a solid idea. The Branchwych is essentially an apothecary. She should have a FNP aura and/or also just provide a d3 wound heal/rez. I would be fine with taking her wizard abilities away to gain this. Alarielle doesn't really do anything that a Keeper of Secrets or mounted terrorgeist doesn't already do better, and for 200+ less points. I would be fine with her dropping her summoning ability altogether along with the relevant discount. She is probably worth 380-420 pts.

I am not a fan of Forest folk. Units of 10 dryads are a pretty large waste of points. When you add in the cost of the battalion it really starts to add up. I have considered the Household though, but the Branchwych is just so frustratingly bad for the same points as a wraith. 30 Dryads are actually fine for the most part. The issue is that the meta is soul-crushingly hard on spell casters, so verdant blessing is unreliable. So that can leave Dryads anchored to your starter forest, which means they can't really do their job of tanking objectives. And if they leave the forest they go from an anvil to just a nuisance.

Great idea! I also had a friend suggest that Treelords count as a forest for the purpose of teleporting. I thought that was a cool idea too. But yea its super frustrating carrying 5 forests to an event just to have a cluttered table with no room to place them. If they want us to a be a terrain focused army then thats fine or whatever, but they need to make sure we can actually have our terrain on the table.

The item is solid, but the issue is that our spell lore lacks any meaningful spells to capitalize on the item. Is forcing through a D6 heal really going to impact the game enough? Will your caster even be near your heavy hitters when its needed? If we had spells that gave armywide 5++ or gave a unit -1 to hit, etc then you would be on to something But as it stands i would rather just spam rouse to wrath and verdant blessing with the stave 🤷‍♂️

Its been a minute since I played Drycha. How does she get rerolls in the shooting phase? Yea but even then the player will usually have a 5+ FNP as well as the double CP spell up. So he is going to save quite a few of them and he doesn't degrade. The spell that doubles CP is probably one of their strongest abilities. It absolutely shuts down Dreadwood lists.

Yea, it lets you suck a bit more efficiently than the other battalions. I honestly wouldn't bring it all if it weren't for the Spiritsong Stave. The extra cast just proves super crucial for summoning forests. Its particularly useful on turn 1 when I am often out of range of unbinds. I like Drycha as well, but she (like Durthu) is paying a hell of a premium for all of her abilities. I had a rude awakening in my last game after seeing what a 220point Light of Eltharion could do compared to my 300pt characters.

All of our battalions suck. Outcast is just the cheapest form of suck 🤣

So the shark is definitely a good way to spend an extra 110 points, especially for softer books like Sylvaneth or maybe even Cities. It essentially is a way to tie up a scary unit for a turn, since most units rely on pile ins to do damage. However the downside is that the unit will often just kill them on the players next turn since the effect wears off. So its not something I would build around. Its more of a minor tool to have on your belt for relatively minimal investment. They are also good objective grabbers. A similar affect can be derived from a unit of Concussors though. They are 220 points and their pile in deny ability activates in the combat phase, and they are extremely survivable. They could possibly tie up a horde unit indefinitely, or at least force the player to use their first activation to try and deal with them.

The underperfoming subfactions like Oakenbrow, Heartwood, Ironbark and Gnarlroot need to just be rewritten from the ground up. Subfactions should be equally appealing and be closer in power levels to Winterleaf, Dreadwood, and Harvestboon. Some examples would be Oakenbrow unlocking Treelords as battleline and Gnarlroot giving all casters an additional cast and a unique spell. Maybe Heartwood could be +2 to run and charges. Ironbark should be a 6++ FNP and access to any duardin unit as allies. The artefacts/command abilities/traits should then supplement those playstyles. We need functional in game buffs in line with the other factions. This whole "+1 bravery" or "reroll battleshock" sub factions abilities are absolute trash compared to armies like Seraphon (-1 damage) or Khorne/FEC (multiple activations). Treelord Ancient should, at the very least, get a better warscroll spell, a second cast, and +1 attack. A character version of a unit should never be worse than the original unit. Side note, I also think Treelords Impale should be rewritten to where its more meaningful. Maybe make it a flat 3 damage. Hoping for a 6 on a single attack is meaningless 85% of the time.

-New Alarielle warscroll -Rewrite Sylvaneth allegiance rules to be meaningful and not tied to fickle terrain pieces. -Rewrite/add subfactions -New Kurnoth Hunters with Bows warscroll -New Treelord Ancient Warscroll. These 5 changes are what we need the most IMHO

Points arent the issue. The army lacks a clear play-style or vision. It needs a complete rewrite from the ground up. Competitively the codex is on a different planet than ones released afterward. Our allegiance abilities are tied to having multiple forests, which is extremely unreliable. An allegiance ability should never be subject to being blocked by terrain or having to cast a spell. Imagine any other army that has to cast a spell or bring a 260pt unit to activate their PRIMARY allegiance ability. In addition many armies get terrain in addition to their primary allegiance abilities. Skaven just straight up drops both pieces needed for their teleport. We also should have battleline unlocks like nearly every other army. Treelords should be battleline in certain subs. If alarielle is going to be 600+ points she needs to be equal to teclis or morathi in board presence. The cost of summoning a unit should not be factored into her cost. If i wanted that unit i could just bring it without the risk of losing it to before it was summoned. I would rather she be unkillable like Morathi or have spells that alter the entire board like Teclis. I play 7 armies competitively but Sylvaneth is my baby. Yet it remains likely the worst codex written for 2nd edition. Points alone cant fix it 😭

I often attempt the summon, but have found the dryads to be relatively useless after turn 1 or 2. Generally the priority spell is Verdant blessing for teleports and regrowth to heal durthu back up to top bracket. So speed is an issue. However most of the meta seems to either be alpha strike melee or shooty. Vs alpha it isnt a problem because they come to me. Vs shooty i try to capitalize on forests for cover/teleporting but its admittedly a challenge. However note that 30-45 wound units of Hunters are hard as balls to shoot off. So sometimes i just plant them on objectives and wait it out. Im not a fan of putting that many points in battallions. 6 drop is generally good enough for me. However Free Spirits would be a lot more useful than outcasts as my single battallion. The catch is that the extra 40 point cost means i only have 160pts to purchase another unit. And 3 more hunters is just more useful than the Free Spirit bonus Note that i have ran Free Spirits with this list before and that is actually the build I use for when i take sisters. Random note: I played vs Lumineth today (Teclis and 30 sentinels!!) And somehow scored another win. 19-18. I am now on a 4 win streak! I got pretty lucky. Scored the double on turn 1 and managed to summon a forest and make the teleport + charge into his screens. His archers and Eltharion wrecked me but i kept his front lines so busy with hunters + durthu that he just couldnt get by to take my objectives. Scenario was Forcing the Hand so it was a lot of objectives and a lot of table to cover. Tourney is next weekend!

The core of the list is as follows Harvestboon Durthu (sickle and seek new fruit) Branchwraith (regrowth and stave) 3x5 Spites Outcast 2x6 Hunters Swords 1X6 Hunter Scythes That should leave you with about 200pts to play with. I usually bump the scythes up to 9. But a unit of Sisters or a Treelord also work.