Kharneth
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I'd probably take: Kairos Fateweaver, Lord of Change, Gaunt Summoner, 9 Tzaangor Enlightened, 3x10 Pink Horrors, Aethervoid Pendulum, Burning Head, and whatever else I could fit.
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That's awesome! I'd recognize Be'Lakor anywhere, haha. I enjoy the Spartan aesthetic.
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How many berzerkers would you put in 1k points? My friend has runefather on magmadroth, Runeson, runesmiter, 5 berzerkers with 2 axes, and 5 berzerkers with picks and shields. He wants to replace the runeson with a grimwrath berzerker and get a battlesmith, too.
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Yeah it makes sense, he's kinda meta. Hahaha yeah, I hear you.
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I mean, frankly Skaven is only a part of Chaos due to a technicality. I know nothing about Malal, but I tend to perceive Chaos as identical in 40k and fantasy. To me there aren't two Chaos pantheons. Hm, okay. But, um, what is the source of Malal's power? Like, Khorne feeds on anger, hatred, and violence. Slaanesh on greed, desire, and craving. Nurgle on fear, sickness, and death. And Tzeentch on delusion, change, and magic. Is Malal just pure anarchy or pure madness? Chaos without aim?
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What is Malal's domain anyway? I never understood how the 4 Chaos Gods were incomplete.
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My pink strategy has varied a lot based on the enemy. They're always in the center and usually the last line protecting my gaunt and LoC, but I try to put them in positions where they're a good target but where they aren't likely to be killed off. I started by using Bolt or Mutation with them and in a game I rolled 0 DD results of 1 and in another I only had a single 1. So I realized that Fold Reality is kinda necessary for these unfortunate situations. With Fold Reality, however, I was less reliant on DD and when you suggested giving the Gaunt Bolt instead of Glimpse I found that was useful. Now, noticing that cogs isn't worth the points and without cogs Mark of the Conjurer is even worse (it might not've ever been worth it). So, if I replace cogs and take the pendulum I can effectively summon blues more effectively. With that in mind, I made a new list. I was 20 points too much for having 2 units of pinks. I can't find many better 80pt options if I removed the 3rd battleline unit, so I filled 20 points with shackles. 180 - Gaunt Summoner - Arcane Sacrifice, Glimpse the Future 380 - Lord of Change - Gryph-Feather Charm, Bolt of Tzeentch 200 - 10 Pink Horrors - Fold Reality 80 - 10 Kairic Acolytes 80 - 10 Kairic Acolytes 20 - Quicksilver Swords 20 - Soulsnare Shackles 40 - Aethervoid Pendulum Swords (4), Pendulum (3.5), and Arcane Sacrifice (2) means that the Pink Horrors will suffer an average of 9.5 mortal wounds, which means they'll be required to use Fold Reality in order to survive their own hero phase. The reason I'm taking Glimpse the Future back is because my ability to kill Horrors is now greater than my ability to regain them, I'll need every DD of 1 I can get. @mmimzie do you think this is too extreme/excessive? @Pandamina Those are the units I've been having success with. Without being able to fit a second unit of Pinks, paying 20 points for Swords to do avg 4 is pretty efficient. Pendulum and Geminids have the advantage of never wiffing and resulting in 0 mortal wounds, but they're more expensive. Also, random question. Is there a reason that Glimpse the Future specifically says that it can only be attempted by a single Wizard per hero phase? Isn't this already a universal rule - that a spell can only be attempted once?
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@mmimzie good observations. The Pendulum and Burning Head are better if there's more than one unit, but the swords are cheaper and better against a single unit. Because of that I'm sort of stuck with it in 1,000 points. Now that I'm thinking about it, though, Chronomantic Cogs is 60 points that gives me 2 fate points each turn, perhaps spending 40 points on the Pendulum or Head would be a more valuable purchase. I almost always spend fate points on blue horrors anyway. Frankly, the danger of the swords striking my own units is not what bothers me the most. It's that I'd lose out on the ability to kill pinks and therefore summon blues on that turn that's bothersome. I'll just have to deal since I've been using them better than they're actually intended to be. I'll have to be sure that the swords aren't 12" away from my characters by the end of my movement phase prior to the any turn I gain initiative, but you're right that that's doable.
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Perhaps that is a better plan. I'm not sure how practical it is to keep my pinks/endless spells away from other units. Partly because Arcane Sacrifice on the Gaunt Summoner requires him to be within 3" of the pink horrors, but even in the cases where I do not take that command trait I still think it'd be rather difficult. The swords move 8" and have a range of 6" so they've got a pretty good reach. Good advice, though. On second thought, if I make it so the Gaunt Summoner is on one flank of the Pink Horrors and I move the swords so that it is 6" away from the pinks on the opposite side, as long as the unit is more than 6" long, the swords won't be able to make it the gaunt summoner. They might be able to reach my acolytes, but that would just be a minor annoyance. I'll have to practice.
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I've got a question about using predatory spells to kill Pink Horrors now that I know how they're correctly used. Really, I'm just wondering what's the most effective and ideal way to use them. Casting the spell on my first turn, whether I go first or second, is basic. On subsequent turns, I understand that if I go first then my enemy will get to move the predatory spell and will likely not hurt the pink horrors. If I go second on the second turn, I will get to control the predatory spell and attack my pink horrors but then it will be my enemy's turn before I get to use Fold Reality. If I go first and the enemy uses the predatory spell I created on the previous turn can I then unbind it with a wizard and recast it? Would that even be worth it?
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Oooh haha that makes a lot of sense.
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Battle with the Sigmarites went well. He actually didn't take much of what I was expecting. He took a Lord-Celeste, Knight-Incantor, a priest guy, 7 or 8 gryphon puppies, 2x5 liberators, and 5 evocators. He wasn't Hallowed Knights, I forget which he picked. I went first and he shut down my first turn, I didn't get a single spell cast off. He used up his auto unbind, which honestly I thought was a really poor usage of it. Turn 1 I killed 1 pink horror with arcane sacrifice and got no spells off, so I have no fate points and only 2 blue horror points 😓 Also, our realm was shadow and so spell casts had a hard limit of 18" so arcane sacrifice was less useful. On turn 2 he got to go first, but after his 2nd turn I had the upper hand until the end. We decided to end on a draw at the end of the 4th turn, it was impossible for him to get to my objective in the next turn and he didn't think I'd be able to secure his objective, either. Removing Glimpse the Future and giving the Gaunt Summoner Bolt of Tzeentch was very nice, though Tzeentch's Inferno on the LoC was not as useful as Glimpse the Future. I'm really glad I switched out the rod for the sword on the LoC. I used him to charge the gryphon hounds that charged my acolytes and he killed enough to cause the rest to flee! I discovered that I have no idea how to use endless spells and apparently need to read the rules. Is the malign sorcery the most up to date for endless spells? During one of the later turns I attempted to cast Quicksilver Swords with my Pink Horrors and he told me that units cannot cast endless spells, only characters? But he didn't really seem sure, for whatever reason he felt he couldn't cast endless spells with his Evocators and therefore neither could I with my Pinks. He also said that Predatory endless spells are controlled by whichever player does not go first on any turn that the spell exists prior to the turn it is cast. So he had this magic hammer tornado that inflicted 4 wounds to my Gaunt Summoner. On the following turn he won initiative and told me that I was allowed to move the magic hammer tornado, which confused me so I had him explain. Naturally, I moved it away from my Gaunt Summoner and towards the Pink Horrors and then that was that. Later I asked him how his predatory spell deals damage and whether or not I could've used it to damage my pink horrors when I moved it. He said I could use it if it was within range of an enemy unit, but he didn't think I could use it on my own units. I don't know why he thought this, but I'm almost positive he was wrong. I have found my answers to the Endless Spells in Malign Sorcery.
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Looking at the warscrolls I hadn't realized that some of them were older and some were newer. If he comes competitive I'll at least have an idea of what to expect and if not than I'll just enjoy the surprise. @MitGas no problem! I'd love to see my friend's face if I killed his demon prince with an ogroid thaumaturge lol.
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This comment I interpreted as claiming SCE had no casters. When I looked at the SCE warscrolls I only looked at like 15% of the warscrolls because they have a lot! I looked at the ones you listed. I'm not entirely sure what was meant by this, but at the time I thought perhaps SCE had no casters. @mmimzie you're right, brain ******. With a Gaunt Summoner, LoC, and 10 Pink Horrors I can either take Glimpse on the Summoner or not at all. I always forget Ogroid is not a demon because he doesn't look human. I'm restricted by the models I own, but you make some good points. I will try something slightly different tonight: Gaunt Summoner with Arcane Sacrifice and Bolt of Tzeentch Lord of Change with Feather Charm and Tzeentch's Inferno (or Fold Reality) 10 Pink Horrors with Fold Reality (or Tzeentch's Inferno) 2x10 Acolytes Quicksilver Swords Umbral Spellportal Arcane Sacrifice and Umbral Spellportal means I can get a turn 1 Infernal Gateway, Bolt of Tzeentch, and Infernal Flames. Losing Cogs and MotC will be bring my fate points from 9 to 5, which is likely to result in only 10 blue horrors on turn 1 instead of 2. What about swapping Tzeentch's Inferno and Fold Reality? In this way I can cast Infernal Gateway from a distance and Fold Reality on the Horrors instead of being out of range for Inferno. Then the pinks will cast Inferno because they will be in front of the LoC. The drawback is it makes LoC an even better target because when it dies the Pinks will die, but that was already true so?
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You can only use it once per game during any combat phase (your turn or enemy turn). It lets you pile in and attack at the end of the phase, presumably after you've already attacked with him. When you pile in you must pile in to the nearest enemy model/unit, so you'll probably fight whatever you were already fighting but sometimes you might fight a different unit. If you're in base to base with two different units than you could choose to attack the one you did not attack already.
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I've never used the Ogroid, but he basically comes with a unique Bolt of Tzeentch. Also, in comparison to the Gaunt Summoner, his 7+ to cast spell is the same as the 8+ to cast Infernal Flames with the +1 to cast familiar. Specifically against SCE, if I had an Ogroid I think I'd take him as a replacement for the summoner simply because d6 mortal wounds would be a lot more powerful than infernal flames. Plus the character itself is a bit more durable. The Sorc Lord's reroll saves of 1 ability? Why? His spell is easy to cast and lets them reroll 1s for hits, wounds, and saves. I have 3 enlightened but haven't used any and don't plan to until I play bigger games and can take 6-9 of them. So, SCE has literally no casters? Your list is technically illegal because you need at least 2 battleline. I've been using LoC w/ Conjurer & Bolt, Gaunt Summoner w/ Sacrifice & Glimpse, 10 Pink Horrors w/ Mutation, 2x10 Acolytes, Quicksilver Swords, and Cogs. But recently I used Fold Reality on the Pink Horrors and plan to continue doing so. I had an idea to drop the acolytes, cogs, swords, and mark of the conjurer to instead take a 2nd unit of Pink Horrors and the pendulum. Instead of 9 fate points I'd generate 6 fate points and instead of an avg of 6 pink horrors slain I'll have an avg of 9 pink horrors slain. I'd lose out on the 20 acolytes on turn 1 and wouldn't be able to summon more than the same 20 blue horrors as before unless I luckily kill 3 more than the average. I'm not sure if this'll be better, though. Glimpse the Future has not been great and with Arcane Sacrifice if I swapped it out for Bolt I could get a 1st turn cast off. 27" range means I could potentially snipe something without being in range to be shot back, but I guess they can move and shoot. I could swap cogs for spellportal to get an infernal gateway off turn 1, too while keeping the LoC out of range from the big guns if there are any. I guess I'm mostly talking strategy, here. If you faced SCE list with 5 Judicators, a Lord-Ordinator, and 2 ballistas how would you counter that with your list? Maybe I should do the math, is that enough to kill a LoC in a single turn? I have some ideas for how to stay out of range, even if he deep strikes, but I don't have any ideas for how to survive getting in range long enough to cast a spell.
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What would you bring and do with a magic heavy list? If I had an Ogroid I'd probably swap out the summoner for him. I'm very tempted to swap cogs for the portal, but I'm not even sure if he'll be shooting.
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@Pandamina I have no doubt that my list is not the best list for my opponent, but I am trying to consistently play the same list. I like it and it seems to have potential so I'm trying to get as much experience as I can with it before my 1,000 point tournament in Feb. I know the worst to expect, though. A single auto unbind is not so bad, but 6+ to ignore a spell could be annoying. I only have 2 important offensive spells since the gaunts is bad. If he has a unit of 10 it'll be the gaunts target, otherwise I think I'll actually keep him in the back with the pink horrors using arcane sacrifice to assist summons and just get my glimpse off reliably. If he takes a mostly shooty army I would be pretty worried. I think I might try to hang back with the LoC for a couple turns while I fill up ranks of fodder hoping I can engage him in combat and not die faster than I'm able to summon. But I don't know, I mean if he takes a bunch of shooting units than all he has to do is kill 2 characters and it's over.
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I did take a look at the warscrolls after your response and found some answers. There are sooo many options, it'll be hard to know what he'll pick. The auto unbind is once per game, which is much less scary than I was expecting. I have lots of scary spells haha. I found Hallowed Knights, I thought they were a unit but they're actually just subfactions. I'm sure he'll add anti-magic stuff, I'm not sure if he'll dedicate his entire army to it. I have no idea how his army looks when it doesn't know it's facing DoT. Thanks for giving me some keywords to investigate, the SCE book has a lot! Arcane Sacrifice on the Gaunt Summoner and Mark of the Conjurer on LoC. This is my pretty generic first turn: Lord of Change provides +1 to cast by spending a command point. Gaunt Summoner sacrifices d3 Pink Horrors with Arcane Sacrifice. Gaunt Summoner casts Glimpse the Future (if I haven't used a destiny die I'll wait to cast this until then, but I'll spend a DD of 3 or 4 during my hero phase if I go first). Gaunt Summoner casts Infernal Flames if there's more than 1 enemy within range or Arcane Bolt if there's only 1 enemy. LoC casts Quicksilver Swords and kills avg 4 Pink Horrors. LoC casts Chronomantic Cogs and then uses it to cast an additional spell (mystic shield or he'll waste an out of range offensive spell for the fate points). Pink Horrors cast either mystic shield or fold reality, depending. If I have a couple 1s for DD and I didn't lose 7+ Pink Horrors I won't risk Fold Reality this early. When everything is said and done I have 9 Fate points and, on average I've slain 6 Pink Horrors and acquired 12 blue horror points, which gives me the option of summoning 10 blue horrors and saving some fate points for flamers or summoning 20 blue horrors after I move. This is only when things go according to plan and I have not yet faced an enemy that reliably unbinds my spells. I'm still getting better at my movement and screening, but I basically split the enemy into 2 forces in my head. Force A is the stuff I am going to try to kill and Force B is the stuff I am going to feed my screens to. Not a lot happens during my turn 1 if I go first. Against SCE, if he deepstrikes a large bulk of his army my first turn is going to be spent trying to deny him positions.
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I mean, the only plan I have is my generic plan since I don't know what to expect. That's why I'm here. Frankly, I don't know what any of those things are. I'm guessing sacrosanct is a battalion. If he shuts down my magic than I'm going to lose, that's just a fact of my army. I usually kill elite threats with Infernal Gateway and Bolt of Tzeentch while I deal with numerous threats with Infernal Flames. Do his casters get any bonuses to their unbinding? How does the knight-incantor auto unbind work? Do Hallowed Knights negate spells that are directed at them or any? Is this a single-use ability or like an aura? Is a knight-ordinator a character or a unit and what makes it so threatening? In terms of ranged threats, are ballistas the most valuable targets? I do have arcane sacrifice, but the 9" range isn't going to be a big thing in this game because his spell isn't going to be great against them. I can do quite a lot on my first turn, actually, though I prefer going second to prevent the enemy from getting a double turn on me early on. Also, Pandamina, in regards to my response to your army list. My army list uses Infernal Gateway to deal avg 6 mortal wounds, Bolt of Tzeentch to deal avg 3.5 mortal wounds, plus Infernal Flames to deal 1 mortal wound to 50% of a single unit. I can dump nearly 10 mortal wounds on a single target and I can do 5+ mortal wounds to any unit with 10 or more models. This is the damage output I have access to in my list and in my experience it is not very potent. I get by, but I don't deal crazy amounts of damage to my enemy. When I read your list I felt like it had less killing power than my list, which I feel already lacks killing power. So my question "how do you plan to kill threats" was not meant as criticism, it's a genuine concern. With 20 pink horrors and the pendulum you do have a lot of summoning potential, but if you don't have sufficient killing power (per turn) than you might end up with more summonable units than you can make use of.
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Tomorrow I will be battling Stormcast Eternals in 1,000 points and I know almost nothing about them. He knows I am bringing DoT. What are some units and strategies that SE employ against Tzeentch that I should be aware of and what can I do to minimize the negative impact? How can I distinguish between the units that I should focus my damage on versus the units I should focus my screens on? From what I understand it seems like the majority of SE are elite infantry and their weaponry is what determines their role. Are there particular units that I should recognize as "fodder," "anvil," and "hammer"? I know that SE can be used in a large variety of ways, but I've noticed that one of the most important factors in determining my success with DoT is my ability to prioritize targets. I need to cast spells at targets that are highly destructive but not exceptionally durable. Failing to determine the appropriate targets results in my forces being overwhelmed. Since I don't know when I'll be facing them again I'd like to make the most out of the 5 turns I will have. I'm thinking any ranged units he takes would be a serious threat. For reference I will be brining a LoC (MotC), Gaunt Summoner (Arcane Sacrifice), 10 Pink Horrors, 2x10 Acolytes, Quicksilver Swords, and Chronomantic Cogs.
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@Pandamina How do you plan to kill threats with only Bolt of Tzeentch and Enlightened? I don't mean to criticize, I'm fairly new to Tzeentch, but your list seems to lack potency if the 6 enlightened are your most powerful unit and if what mmimzie says is true. I'm sure they are good, but other than them you've just got a lot of shooting attacks. I like Glimpse the Future, but it has not been a huge benefit for me. I see it as an extra 5 destiny dice, but it's the first 2 or 3 that matter and though the spell is never truly wasted, if it isn't either a 6 or a 1 than it's usually not significant. You might consider replacing a Fold Reality with something offensive, too. In my experience summoning can be difficult if you can't clear spaces.
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@Magnus The Blue thanks for providing the source. I always feel uncomfortable approaching my friends and saying "the online people say this allowed but I don't know where it says so in the rules." lol @mmimzie thanks, that makes much better sense. I'm trying to broaden my range of enemies and have yet to find anyone with spells that extend past 18". It's nice to have a list of potential long ranged casters.
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@mmimzie What is the benefit of Magical Supremacy? I did not see an updated version and I thought that the rules said we can unbind spells from 30" away, so how does 27" help? Also, I heard that the chaos familiars on the Gaunt Summoner effectively increase his number of wounds but when I read the rules it says that the attacker chooses who to allocate the wound to. Is there an updated version to this rule somewhere? @Magnus The Blue I often use my Destiny Dice of 2 for non-pink battleshock. Sometimes I'll figure out exactly what result I'll need and I'll use that dice, but often I find 3s and 4s more valuable than 2s so I'll use up a 2 for battleshock even if I needed a 3 or 4. I feel like using a destiny dice of 2 on a 2+ roll is kind of a waste as you have an 83% chance of success already.
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The idea of using the sword because arcane transformation works the best with it doesn't seem to be enough justification. What I mean is, do you use other characters that benefit from Arcane Transformation? It would seem like a heavy use of a spell slot to cast that spell once to make the LoC better in combat when it's already not intended for combat. I agree that having the LoC proficient in combat allows for more tactical options, but if you've been using arcane transformation to, I assume, increase the sword's attack by 1 have you been using this to enhance anyone else's characteristics? Perhaps +1 Move on Gaunt Summoner, +1 Attack on LoC, and +1 Attack on Ogroid (just thinking out loud if I can make proper use of this). 🤔
