Myrdin
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I second Magnus. 2 Chimeras and 6 Skyfires is a no go combination. Sure its ton of damage. But fragile damage in already a low bodycount list. And you are not going to overkill a melee dedicated army. I would drop one Chimera and beef out the numbers. More Ungors, More Bestigors > You are saving 60pts if you make it 30. You need somethign to outlast your enemy while your objective campers rack up the points and Skyfires delete those of your opponent.
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If you want them for that reason, then you want to go with 40. Simply due to the fact that you need some ablative sponge Wounds to keep them from loosing 1 model and immediately loosing the Rerolls of 1-2s. Plus those 40, while short in range, can dish out surprising amount of dakka if left unchecked Keep them alive and those re-rolls will do a lot. (Granted anything with 4+ save is gonna ignore them, but 5+ save 1W models ? Oh yessssh)
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This is something I am aiming towards to as well. Eventually would like to get 12 Enlightened, in case I need to repay some poeple who just have to be "that guy" and bring the worst cheese possible. But before I get more of those 6 Skyfires is what I want. So I was thinking despite the Jabber nerf, there might be times where it might be useful. Buddy of mine put togather High Elf army playing a flying monster circuss of one Drakeseer and two Frost Phoenixes and won 2/3 games on our local tournament, loosing one just because of random objectives. Seeing those birds in action I think Two jabbers countering one (2 jabbers are 60 pts more) while something else tackles the other one, and a Battle kitted BL/DB with bunch of bestigors tackling the Drakeseer might the right way to go.
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Same with mine, with the exception being I used 1 Bestigor from the chariot kit, and the rest is made from Mierce Mini beastmen who are bulkier then GW ones. For male centigors the Marauder horses are great as they, once complete, make the model look really "buff". And thats how a Beastmen should be looking. Also I have seen some amazing conversion for Female centigors, using the Sisters of Thorns kit, and turning them into the old school Warcraft 3 dryads. It looked really great and once I am done with my current projects (Beastmen Demon Prince, Centigors, DoK Custom Sisters of Slaughter, Tzaangors using non Disc mounts, etc), I too want to give it a go and convert at least 5 of those.
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Wait they changed the base size AGAIN ?! Damn you GW ! Decide already ! Right after I bought bunch of 120mm bases and rebased all my chariots. This seriously pisses me off.
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So how do you guys use your Chimeras ? Just rush them forward as fast as possible and try to do as much damage as you can ? Keep them on flanks an snipe priority targets ? I was wondering what would be the best strategy since they are fairly fragile, and if there is any shooting on the other side of the board, they are sure to get the pointy end of the stick fairly quickly.
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Skin wolves are Warriors of Chaos units. Since WoC no longer exist they are not legal per say, however WoC IS SoD pretty much 1to1 ratio, just like BoC is Beastmen.. Technically you can do this in Open Play I think. In Matched play, only if your opponent agrees. As long as you go by that logic, and your opponent is fine, there are no issues. Its the same army, just does not have the proper keyword due to the horrible state the old armies are... thanks for not doing anything GW, but I digress. The point is, they are Chaos, they are Monsters of Chaos, and they are listed as WoC, so unless your opponent is super ultra rules strict type, and is fine with that it should be fine. Granted you will not bring them to tournaments legally (for now, lets see if the Monster Lexicanum FW book gets an update). Thankfully our local group is quite open to these sort of things, as we all are mostly veterans, who remember and played the original armies back in the day, and people just want to have fun with their list building. Again, you cant bring them to a Tournament or if your opponent disagrees. Just keep that in mind. As for the damage calculation - Did you factor in the fact that Skin wolves produce additional hit if they roll a 6 on to Hit ? Because no Enlightened are not better on 1 to 1 bases. 6 Enlightened on Discs, do not perform to the same degree 6 Skin Wolves do. EoDisc already perform very well, so that only shows that SW are very strong. Now if we talk price difference, EoD did get the upper hand if they had the perfect situation > having a shaman, plus rerolls and what not. For that price difference you can add 3 more wolves to the unit and that will skew the numbers in their way again. So the real advantage is ONLY the speed and the BoC factor. You can argue damage, but that calculation was incomplete to begin with as you added ALL the bonuses to Enlightened which resulted in two units with vastly different price tags, ignored the 6s for Skin wolves. If you want to make an honest comparison with actual objective results, you cannot do that,. Or ok, do that, but in that case add 3 more skin wolves to compensate for the +200pts Shaman and dont forget the 6s to Hit. Thats the best way to be objective. Do that and you `ll notice the Skin Wolves are coming on top in the damage department. Actually I`d be interested to see the numbers for the Skin Wolves with these things factored in, in case you want to run it through the formula you used. As for the Bullgors... yeah those guys piciked the short end of the stick. +1 Attack on both weapon profiles (not the horns though) would do wonder to make them relevant (lets be honest 3+ to hit is what they need, but its the BoC theme to hit on 4+ so that aint happening), and 2" on the great weapons should have been a no brainer so that you can screen.
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just two cents from me. If you can, and want something that smashes stuff (as in what Bullgors were meant to do but never grow to that potential), ally SoD Skin Wolves in. I ran a unit of 6. Those 6 evaporate stuff. You think Tzaangors are deadly ? You need to see the Skin wolves in action. Admittedly they as durable as a wet tissue is, and while faster then most infantry stuff, they are understandably slower then Enlightened on discs. The upside is though that they do not need a Shaman babysitting them, and while the bigger bases can be a detriment, it can also work in your favor for multi charging. The unit I tested multi charged two KO Zeppelins, I allocated attacks incorrectly as I didn't know just how good this unit s and wanted to make sure to take at least one down. They killed one that had 10W, and almost killed one that had I think 12W down to 2. So yeah, other then Demon Princes, Skin wolves are one of the few things we can ally in, that can pull its own weight and is just fun to use.
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My thoughts pretty much. The Item would be servicable if the scaling was lowered by 1 lvl. -1 base, -2 vs 10, -3 vs 20 (which would happen rarely but not impossible). The Allherd skill for Battleshock should be unlimited. Just flat -1 to all battleshock test, not ones who happen in a particullar turn,.. (wtf is that sh*t of a restriction anyway ?!). The CP for summoning point should be D3 or at least 2, and voila suddenly its a solid perk, that works well for whats its meant to do.. The Command Trait would also be great, if the sentence was shorter and ended before "if within 3" of an enemy unit". I mean Allherd would be great with a little tweak here and there, but its been SOOOOO over balanced its utter rubbish. For little gain you get so much horrible additional baggage. And its really infuriatiing to me as I like the Allherd lore the most, and the idea itself is great. The item, ability and trait all have visible potential to be great tools in a Beastlords toolbox, and all it would take is just little tweaking of the wording. The Darkwalkers I find pretty OK. I mean sometimes its nice to use ambushing your big guys as a silent threat and board control tool, especially if you combine it with the ability to bring them in on the 2nd turn, Desolate shard though, is way to restrictive again. You get a D3 dmg on a 4+ chance, once per battle, and only on a unit that is close to a terrain. I mean thats so many restrictions for such little gain, why even bother. I would get rid of the Once per battle thing. You would still be limited with 4+ hit roll. So maybe drop that one to a 3+ or remove it completely as well. And before anyone says anything. I`ve seen SCE use similar abilities (or items) but without the need to roll to hit soo yeah... Gawespawn, honestly are pretty good. Personally I would change the ability of the spawn either to an AoE aura thing, But thats not required its more of a optimalization thing from my perspective than anything else.
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Well hopefully there will be no more Stormcast sh*t for a while. They already have more then double the units and such to choose from. Personally I would love to see the old Empire get a proper Battletome. The models are all there, just need to give them updated rules just like they did with BoC and the army is ready to rock n roll. No reason for GW to have models for sale that have no rules thus no reason for people to buy them (other than for collecting and converting).
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My bad. BD has limit of 1-4 heroes, but I got it mixed with Desolating Beastherd where you can have only 1 of them (BL or DB)
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For Brass Desp. Go with Doombull to benefit from the reroll, but bring an additional Beastlord who is not part of the Battalion. Since BL has inbuilt rerolls for his paired axes, you can equip him with Mutated Gnarlbade as you please, while you can put a different relic onto your DB thanks to having the extra item slot granted by the Battalion (I like the Axe, but the cloak of +2 to charge rolls is a very strong contender as well, especially if you run DB solo without any Bullgor retinue.)
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"Greetings mighty Warlords and Insidious cult leaders ! I have come here seeking your wisdom for the greater glory of Chaos !" *Cough, cough In a less dramatic voice * My main army are the fluffy, drunk and always angry Beat of Chaos, and as such I always adored the Skin Wolf models from Forge World. Their rules are pretty solid as well so overall that unit is something I would love to get my furry, beastly hands on. The thing though is that, and here I need some of your help, I dunno how the old Warriors of Chaos transitioned into AoS. Do I assume correctly that they have become the faction currently known as Slaves of Darkness... ? And as such things that were part of the "old WoC" are also part of the SoD ? Namely the aforementioned Skin Wolves ? The thing with the Skin Wolves though is that under the GW Warscroll Builder, the Skin Wolves are still listed as "Warriors of Chaos" unit, but the faction itself no longer exists as it used to be. I mean sure logically we can say they are the SoD now, but how is it for current rule and army building legitimacy purposes ? Sadly (and as stupid as it is) the new Beastmen can ally with and only with Slaves of Darkness (no Demons, no Khornlads, no Archaon, etc), but since the Skin Wolves are listed as WoC can I use them "legally" in a BoC army ? I mean this is the whole Rules as written and Rules as Intended thing... you know In friendly games, people will just wave it off saying "SoD is WoC so just use them if you like em" but I wanted to ask the actual SoD players about this. Thanks in advance for any advice-info you can share on this
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Just to add onto what Yellow_Sign said > General Chaos players also seem to favor the Chimera as it got quite substantial buff (+1 attack for each head and +2A for its claws). But I dont have any experience with it yet, so I am only repeating what I heard from other Chaos players in the area. As far as FW stuff is considered Skin Wolves seem to be a very, very strong pick as well. Personally I think I will bring a unit of 6 for my 2v2 instead of the Chimera and some other stuff and see how they perform. (its open play game with quite benevolently bent Allies rules as one of the guys doesnt have enough stuff for his army, thus I can take allies over the set limit as well. ) @The_Yellow_Sign I didnt know realms have Artefacts ! :O and WOW are they OP !! You just changed my world (we never used to define realms when gaming, so thats why I never knew)
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Ebay is your friend. Or you can check Back to Base. MDF bases are cheep and tend to come in bigger amounts that what GW sells. But on ebay you can get even the usual plastic ones for good price as the bases are not IP protected and there are dozens of companies that produce cheap plastic, mdf, resin, etc bases. Just this week I picked up 200 25mm round bases from Aliexpress for 21 bucks, soooooo..... yeah, you know, look around and you`ll find what you are looking for.
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I want to avoid going with 6 enlightened, as they are sort of an auto include in my lists anyway, and I wanted to lay them off for a moment. Thats small unit of 3 is more of an opportunistic hero chaser, archers eater than an actual serious threat. As for The Tzaan shaman, I dont have him built up yet so and I want to start moving away from proxying units with empty. But yeah, it seems that chimera is not a good choice, as much as I want to see a monster of that caliber of murderification on the table
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So me and my buddy are preparing for a 2v2 against dual SCE armies. Each players brings 1500 pts Vanguard army. Since its a friendly match up, we dont care about what Grand Alliances they are from. He wants to bring his old (and very cool ! I hope they get an actual battle tome as I would love to start this army) Empire and I will bring my beasties. He does have Skaven (But he has no Hell Pit Abom omg squeek!) as his second army, but we wanted to try this "super Lore non friendly" setup first The list I am considering: This is quite the light body count list, but has some very fast units to run and get objectives while presenting multiple threats and one pretty darn solid wall of Dragon Ogors to buy all the time in the world. My buddy will be bringing a core of: The idea is that my fast agile, fluffy and absolutely peaceful Beastmen, will ..... rush forward and smash face ROAAAAAR !!!! Ok srsly now My army is made to surge forward, grab and contest objective and try Alpha striking as many targets of opportunity as possible. This should buy his army 1 turn to move forward and redeploy all his forces, so that from turn 2 onwards they can start peppering enemy units with lead. And from what I remember playing against this army, their shooting - if allowed to deploy and stay put, is quite devastating. Ideally I want him to be within the range of the Herdstone so that if his units are charged by the high Armor SCE stuff, the herdstone start chipping at their saves, while his guns and Volley gun will add an additional -1 to that, pretty much tearing through the normally sturdy units with ease. I have not yet decided on the Shaggoths spell. I think Sundering Blades is a solid pick, but Hailstorm, if used correctly can be amazing. As for the build, Since this Shaggoth will run forward with his Dragon ogor retinue he is kitted out for war, rather than support. Maybe not the most optimal of traits and items but it does serve a specific purpose. EDIT: Damn and of course I forgot to pose the question itself - What do you guys think about this ? With all the information about both of our armies, do you think there should be some other aspect that should be looked at ? I do have low body count, and that is something that worries me. And I dont trust the Chimera to live past 2 turns, heck maybe it will die from SCE shooting even in the first one, so those 240 pts do feel a bit .... "ouch" and possibly better spent elsewhere.
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I might be overlooking something, but the only thing Ungors get for bigger unit size is rerolling 1 and 2s. Has there been some unit update FAQ I am not aware off ?
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Yeah, I wish. The SoD restriction for allies is beyond *insert a very strong cuss word*. Would open up so much more fun lists. As for the "optimal" or whatnot. I am not a tournament player, Rather then going for ultimate optimal uber list, I swap stuff around every single game. Try new things out, put in and put out units, etc etc. If I run Brass despoilers, I couldnt care less about the Shaggoth rerolls for DO, and as for battle line, there is always at least two min. units of ungors in my list for sacrificing and objective holding / back up sacrificing. You guys might not agree with it, but whats important is whether the person in question has fun playing it one way or another
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When did I ever say to bring a Shaggoth ? Just because you bring Dragon Ogers that does not necessitate the inclusion of a Shaggoth. And spells are something I am not willing to fully rely on EVER. Id rather take the battalion and have the bonus assured than to leave it to the whims of the dice gods Playing 40K with my Tau taught me that if you can exclude RnG reliance from your army, you do it as much as possible (Twinlinked weapons, marker lights, etc), because if the dice gods are allowed to mess with you, you better be damn sure they will
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This will sounds weird coming from me and all, but personally I think Tzaangors might be a good way to grind against NH. Just take the paired blades, nice fat unit of 30 and go to town. Enough Wound and Attacks to make it happen. Since they have no rending with paired blades you are not loosing on anything either. Dragon Ogers with paired weapons in unit of 6 might also be good for this. Go Brass Desp and get those rerolls to boot. Those 30 wounds on 6 models will make a nice wall and 36 attacks 3+ 3+ should put enough scare into any Night Haunt player to just recklessly charge them. Plus you get the raking foreclaws extra attacks as well. Centigors are super cheap and on a drunk can get enough attacks in to be scary. Even more so if they are Brass Centigors. And they are very cheep for you to just throw them at the ghostesies. Big blobs of Razorgors "might" be fun, though the 4+ hit rate hurts them a lot so while a unit of lets say 9 might looks scary on the charge, the math hammer says otherwise. Chimera with its breath weapon and myriad of attacks is not a bad choice either. Really anything that has tons of attacks, and no real rending to speak off since its Worthless against them (still wish Herdstone actually affected them...). Avoid tough hitting stuff like Great weapon Bullgors, Gorghon and such. Is all but theory though, but these units seem to be optimised for these sorts of fights where its not about how hard the punch is, but how many of them there are.
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I know right ? Its like a huge cash cow. Make the minis and watch them sell out like hot bread on a Sunday morning ! I dont believe that with the relatively big success the BoC book garnered, with many new players starting the army from s scratch, GW is not planning on releasing some new stuff for us, even if its just updated models. I mean look at the old metal Khorngors, Pestigors and such, they got sold out rather fast, so the market certainly has the buying power and interest required for. Hope they wont be lazy and instead just plop another stupid copy-paste looking Stormcast subfaction (yes I honestly despise that faction and wast amount of models associated with it, with only few exceptions). +++MOD EDIT+++ Please think about what you type
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Yeah, good point, its fairly meta dependent. At our club we tend to be fairly ....err... cheap ? conservative ? sporadic ? with it. Usually there isnt that much option to use that spell. Its not that we dont have the terrain, but somehow when it comes to AoS, unlike 40K where the table is filled with ******, everyone prefers more open plains so we can get the fighting on.
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I use them regularly. Honestly they are a solid gap stopper for enemy units. I have talked about them few pages back, comparing the use of their weaponry. Strictly from my point of view that is. For example I find the Crusher to be a quite dissapointing weapon, while there are other people here who like it. My favorite config is the Cleaver in a Brass battalion. 3+ 3+ -1 1 with rerolling 1 to hit and a once per game wound reroll. Thats a gap stopper with that also has teeth.
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@Keith I would have to question the Vicious Strangle-thorns on the Bray Shaman. Tis true that its the only spell with any real range in the Lore, but still the effect is rather meek. Are you planning to have him as your Herdstone guard hero for the sacrificing ? I suppose yes, since you are running Darkwalkers, otherwise you would want him close to the units to buff their movement speed. With that many Bestigors and Ungors I would honestly go that route so you have some fast threats alongside the slower Bulls. Also Paired weapons on the Bulls eh.....? Honestly I would either go Shields or Great weapons. Granted the optimal setup is the Brass Desp. Bulls with shields for regular enemies, great weapons for big meaty monster. Still if you plan on going single weapon, shield is a better pick. Same with those 10 Gors. They will most likely be camping an objective. You want those shields even if they are for combat only in case some chaff tries to clear them off. Those re-roll 1 for paired weapons is the worst weapon bonus I have seen (I miss the old +1A it used to give in WFB, or if it at least gave +1 to Hit like Tzaangors do) Also - Why are you putting the Desolate shard on your General ? That`s a wasted slot for your DB. Put it on the Bray Shaman or one of the Shaggoths, drop the Lightning chained Bracers and give the Doombul a proper Relic (Cleaver for chop chop, Cloak for long distance Charges). The artifact is not "General Bound", you have to bring it, but you can plop it on anyone else in the army. Otherwise I agree with running the bulls in 6man units. 3 is to little and to few. Honestly I wouldn't even bother with a 3 man unit and would instead bring something entirely different for those points. You are lacking in cheap objective holders. I would go with Chariots or Razorgors (depending on the amount of objectives) for that purpose so that your combat units can move forward without concern. Alternatively 2 units of 5 Centigors are also great for this, as they can hold the objective in one turn and zip half the board in another if necessary. From my own experience 6 bulls can actually last a little and bring enough pain (buffing the living shait out of them is required though, so keep DB close and use that CP wisely) to be scary. They will get focused and they will die, but not without re-precautions, and that time while they are soaking the pain can be used to your advantage elsewhere on the board.
