acr0ssth3p0nd

So, not touching on battlepack-specific stuff like Tactics, Grand Strats, etc, there's a few things: - Champion-based movement and targeting. Every unit gets 1 Champion, which is always the last model slain in a unit. When you move a unit or check targeting or ranges, measure the movement from the unit champion. Move the Champion normally, then just pop every other model in the unit within 3" of the Champion (or within 6" for units of 10+ models). Makes moving a lot easier, especially for hordes. Measuring things like a charge move are still done based on the charging unit's Champion to the closest model in a target unit, so placing the rest of a unit's models matters defensively but you can't get yourself some cheesy charge and range buffs by placing models ahead of the Champion. This is the kind of rule that technically adds complexity but frees up player mental load in execution. It's taken pretty whole-cloth from Star Wars Legion, and my GF (who doesn't quite have the head for AoS's current complexity) finds that it makes the actual act of moving units and figuring out where models can go much less stressful and more approachable. She's actively made that comparison to me. - Combine Heroic Actions and Monstrous Rampages. Each of these are cool, but together they don't quite justify their combined complexity. Maybe make them something like "Epic Actions: each phase, each player can pick 1 Hero or a Monster to do an Epic Action." - Bake Redeploy and Rally into the core rules. These commands add a lot of flexibility, but are easy to forget. Redeploy can lead to "Gotcha!" feels-bad moments, and Rally can end up being entirely useless or way too powerful really quickly. For Redeploy, it could turn the Movement phase into a semi-alternating activations vibe - after your opponent moves a unit, if that unit ends the movement within 9" of one of your units, you can roll a die for one of those units - on a 4+, the unit can move D6 inches. For Rally, it could be a counterpart to a reworks Battleshock Test: Roll 2D6 - if it's under the unit's Bravery, it Rallies, otherwise it Routs. Roll dice equal to the number of models in that unit slain this turn and only this turn; if the unit has Routed, remove 1 additional model for each roll of 1, and if the unit has Rallied, return 1 model for each roll of 6. These are just ideas, of course, but I'm looking to try them out, see what they do to the game. They're set up that existing mechanics for Rally and Redeploy can work with minimal or no changes, even if they do shift in value. - Charges happen at the end of the Movement phase. This just seems obvious - Charging is movement, and it should occur in the phase that's for movement. Alternatively, they occur as part of the Combat phase.

Yeah, Command Abilities as a system do so much heavy lifting that I don't think they should be dropped wholesale from the "core" experience. That said, there are a few that I think just aren't intuitive enough compared to the complexity and "gotcha" moments they create, like Rally and Redeploy. Between them, Heroic Actions, and Monstrous Rampages, there's just too many layers/complexity to justify the interesting choices they individually provide. I'd like to see some of them, like Redeploy and Rally, worked into the core system as part of an edition change, which would require varying amounts of work depending on the command. Rally, for instance, could replace Battleshock in the Battleshock phase - roll dice equal to your Bravery value + the number of models lost, and for each 6 you get 1-wound's worth of models back. "Rally on 5+" is easy enough to work in, and the Insane Bravery command could be something like "Add 3 to the unit's Bravery characteristic for the test." This would also address one of the complaints of the Battleshock phase as a feels-bad area, and help boost the viability of chaff/infantry models. Redeploy is trickier, and might well require a deeper rework of the Movement phase to be more reactive and "alternating-activations-lite" but if it can be done, I think it would be well worth it for making the movement gameplay feel both deeper and more accessible. For monstrous rampages, the best bet might be to turn them into either heroic actions or commands, depending on the specific rampage. Keep the tool and the "moment of awesome" feeling, but don't make them a whole extra system for new players to learn. Making them commands/HAs means that new players have alternate choices so they don't miss out on a whole extra resource if they choose not to use certain tools.

Good point - will add that change.

Something that might help with both slowing movement and making the game more accessible to new players could be to move Charges to the Movement phase. I can't tell you how many times I've seen newer players look weirded out when I tell them that charging is a separate thing from moving and has its own phase.

Totally. To use Sylvaneth as an example, Tree-Revenants (32mm base, 2 wounds, humanoid) would be INFANTRY, but Kurnoth Hunters (50mm base, 5 wounds, big humanoid) would not.

I do think that adding a few more "role" keywords might provide a good number of design tools for relatively little complexity. "Cavalry" and "Infantry," for example.

Ask and you shall receive!

Imgur link for online ref EDIT: PDF Link

Totally agree. I've been working on a "Casual Battlepack" for the last few months that includes this sort of set up, stripping away everything that isn't "throw down dice and fight over objectives." A WiP version actually got featured on Warhammer Weekly, which was super rad!

And ironically, Horus Heresy has had a huge jump in support in my local area because people are so tired of the current state of 40K.

Jeezum Crow it's all power armor and imperial armies too.

No lies, making "healing potion water" the currency of the Mortal Realms is 100% thematically on-point.

As someone who is "aggressively casual," I would take AoS a thousand times over the state of 40K, where dataslate rules like Armor of Contempt provide balance on a numerical scale but completely undermine the gameplay identity of certain factions. My Necrons, a faction known for having good AP even on their basic weapons, has completely lost that edge, and in fact functionally have less effective AP on their basic weapons than Marines when fighting them. 40K is a prime example on how not to use iterative updates to achieve balance in a game with distinct factions. Horus Heresy has exploded in popularity near me, and I've been able to turn some pretty hard AoS-naysayers into hearing me out when I describe how each 3.0 faction has a a decent winrate disparity while also feeling like that faction in play.

I mean frankly the fact that it's an Imperial Guard leader who looks straight-up heroic already makes it deeply inaccurate, but then again I'm one of those weird "creators" who cares about "consistent themes" and such in my silly media. You don't get to claim that calling the Imperium "heroic" is satire and then just straight-up make all their models actually come across as heroic, GW!

******, but the Sylvaneth Vanguard box is amazing. That's a "buy multiples" box for sure.

You're gonna make me say it again, aren't you? ... KURNOTHI KURNOTHI KURNOTHI KURNOTHI KURNOTHI

Maybe the grot side of Kruelboyz gets expanded upon into the Evil Sun-worshipping Gitmob, and that's where Doom Divers and Pump Wagons come in? There's already a "mechanical" bent to the KB, with their crossbows and bolt throwers.

Frankly, I still think consolidating all three Orruk armies into one book was a mistake.

KURNOTHI KURNOTHI KURNOTHI KURNOTHI KURNOTHI

KURNOTHI KURNOTHI KURNOTHI KURNOTHI

One of the immediate issues with AA in AoS is that each unit will only be fighting once per round, instead of potentially twice. Thus, the ratio of shooting-to-fighting that units do is effectively doubled! Limiting units to specific actions might solve this - charging and Fighting helps you cover more ground than moving normally and then Shooting, for example. This is one instance where you might want to draw on OPR's core structure more-heavily. That's not to dismiss what you're doing here, mind. The additional complexity in AoS's mechanics and unit stats have their place in a game separate from OPR, and "why not just use OPR" doesn't take this into account. It's like comparing Rainbow Six Siege and Call of Duty - even though R6 has shifted from its traditional 3rd-person gameplay to 1st-person, it's still a different beast from CoD. As far as timing goes, I think it's important to acknowledge the difference between "time taken" and "pacing". Sure, AA games might take longer, but I've found they're often paced better, with relatively little significant chunks of downtime between players getting to do their cool stuff. It's also worth pointing out that they tend to be more-evenly balance across different game sizes, since you only ever get to do one-unit's worth of "stuff" before your opponent gets to hit back, which makes smaller (and thus faster) games more viable.

I still maintain that Sylvaneth should be Destruction instead of Order.

Open play battle report – Trouble in Tree-Town George’s Army – Sylvaneth Heartwood Glade in the Season of the Reaping 120 pts – 1 Arch-Revenant (General; Warsinger Command Trait, Seed of Rebirth Artefact) 250 pts – 3 Kurnoth Hunters with Greatswords (Battleline) 110 pts – 5 Tree-Revenants (Battleline) 235 pts – 3 Revenant Seekers 260 pts – 1 Treelord 975/1,000 points Jon’s Army – Sylvaneth Gnarlroot Glade in the Season of the Reaping 130 pts – 1 Branchwych (General; - Command Trait, - Artefact) 335 pts – Drycha Hamadreth 100 pts – 10 Dryads (Battleline) 105 pts – 5 Spite-Revenants 260 pts – 1 Treelord 930/1,000 points Set-Up Jon won the roll-off to set up the battlefield. Various ruins and toppled walls were scattered around the battlefield, which was 48” by 60” in size. The result for the map was a 1. One army would have their territory in the centre of the battlefield, more than 12” from the long table edges and 15” from the short table edges; while the other army would have their territories along both short table edges, extending up 15”. At this point, Jon and George worked together to ensure that both armies would have access to enough terrain outside of their opponent’s territories to create their army’s overgrown terrain. George won the roll-off for the victory conditions, and his roll determined that the battleplan was an Invasion. 2 objectives were placed, 1 in each player’s territory, and more than 6" from the edge of the battlefield and more than 12" from all other objectives. One was placed firmly in the centre of territory A, surrounded by small ruined houses and walls, while the other was placed amidst some larger ruins in the center of Territory B to the West. The armies must fight to control these objectives. If a player controls both objectives at the end of their opponent’s turn, the game ends and they win a major victory. Otherwise, when the game ends, the player who controls the center objective – the one in territory B – would eke out a minor victory. Next, for the Twist, it seemed that these forces were Eager for battle – all units would add +1 to their Run and Charge rolls. Finally, both players rolled their secret Ruses, and kept them hidden. Deployment Since George lost the roll-off to set up terrain, he chose Territory B for his own, leaving Jon with Territory A. George chose to overgrown the ruins containing the objective in the western side of Territory B, as well as two terrain features strung along outside the northern flank of Territory A. Jon overgrew 3 ruins surrounding his Territory. Then, they each dropped their Wyldwoods – George in the north-western corner, and Jon towards the eastern side of territory A. Objectives George’s wyldwood George’s Overgrown terrain Jon’s overgrown terrain Jon’s Wyldwood. Then, both players deployed their forces. George placed his force entirely along the western side of Territory B, and Jon set his up defensively near the objective in Territory A, with the dryads, branchwych, and treelord as a front line and Drycha and the spite-revenants back near the objective. Round 1 With this being Open Play, both players rolled off to see who would get the 1st turn. Jon won, and chose to go second. George’s Turn 1 George shuffled some of his units around. His treelord walked the Spirit Paths to jump across the board to the north-eastern overgrown terrain that he and Jon shared. His revenant seekers took advantage of his nearby general’s Warsinger trait, moving 15” up towards Jon’s treelord. His kurnoth hunters moved into his wyldwoods, and his arch-revanant general flew 15” with her own Warsinger trait to follow them. Finally, his tree-revenants teleported to cover his objective, hidden in the overgrown ruins. In his shooting phase, his treelord took some potshots at Jon’s dryads with its strangleroots, but with the dryads near Jon’s overgrown terrain, the treelord failed to inflict any harm. Next, his revenant seekers charged Jon’s treelord, who failed his Groundshaking Stomp monstrous rampage. In the subsequent combat phase, the seekers knocked 6 wounds off the treelord but failed to reach that crucial 7-wound threshold to break his might, and their foe swung back with enough force to inflict 3 wounds on a seeker. George did not recall that his seekers could Strike and Fade, which would have dire consequences for the unit as the battle unfolded… Jon’s Turn 1 In his hero phase, Jon’s treelord healed 1 wound from his nearby overgrown terrain. His branchwych tried to cast Regrowth to heal the treelord, but Jon had forgotten to apply his glade traits, and failed the casting even after issuing a command-reroll. Next, he pulled his dryads and branchwych back away from the kurnoth hunters towards the center objective, denying his opponent a juicy charge target. He then sent Drycha and her spite-revenants towards George’s treelord in the north-east corner, but they could not quite get the treelord within range of Drycha’s bees. Jon issued no charges, but had his treelord perform a Stomp rampage and batter George’s seekers for a further 1 mortal wound. The treelord made quick work of 2 seekers in the combat phase, leaving only one seeker remaining in the unit! The lone seeker fought bravely, but only managed to scratch the treelord for 2 wounds. End of Round 1: Both players had a firm hold on their respective objectives. George had repositioned his treelord to threaten Jon from the north-east, and Jon was sending his spite-revenants and Drycha to respond, while his own treelord had dealt a nasty blow to George’s revenant seekers. Round 2 George won the roll-off and chose to take the 1st turn in round 2. George’s Turn 2 George healed a wound on his revenant seekers in his hero phase, then moved his kurnoth hunters and his arch-revenant with their enhanced speed towards Jon’s dryads on the front lines. His treelord in the north-east maneuvered to get Jon’s spite-revenants in range of his strangleroots, and finally he sent his lone revenant seeker along the hidden paths to join his treelord. Using harvested lamentiri, the seeker brought one of their own back to life, bringing the total number of seekers back to 2 models. Jon’s Turn 2 In his hero phase, Jon remembered that he could use heroic actions, but failed to gain a command point from his branchwych’s Heroic Leadership. His branchwych healed his treelord with a successful casting of Regrowth, and the lord then walked the spirit paths to join Drycha in advancing on George’s treelord and seekers in the north-east. Jon’s treelord then shot 1 of the 2 seekers off the board, and Drycha’s blast of bees left the last seeker just 1 wound away from death! However, these two monsters were still too far away to make their charges. End of Round 2: Both players still held their objectives. Jon had lost his spite-revenants, and was consolidating his dryads and branchwych around his objective. However, George’s treelord and revenant-seekers were cornered, and the seekers close to annihilation. If Jon got the double-turn, those seekers were as good as dead… Round 3 So of course, Jon won the roll-off and chose to take the 1st turn in round 3, gaining the fabled double turn! Jon’s Turn 3 In his hero phase, Jon gained a command point from his branchwych’s Heroic Leadership. His treelord healed up another wound from nearby overgrown terrain, then moved up with Drycha, while his dryads surrounded George’s other northern piece of overgrown terrain to seal off any hidden-path-walking. George tried to redeploy his seekers as Drycha closed in, but couldn’t get them out of the range of Jon’s treelord, which shot the last revenant seeker off the battlefield. Jon revealed his Reinforcements ruse, placing his spite-revenants back on the battlefield near the eastern edge, hoping to get them into combat. Drycha moved up on George’s treelord, readying herself for a fight. She chipped 3 wounds off the treelord with a small storm of bees while her squirmlings rose within her, ready for the killing to begin in earnest. She easily made her charge to George’s treelord, but Jon’s treelord could not close the distance to his counterpart, and with the revenant seekers dead, Jon’s spite-revenants had no valid target for their charge. George ordered his treelord to unleash hell upon Drycha, and at this point the players realized that George had forgotten to mark 3 of Jon’s units as the targets of his Heartwood hunt. They agreed that George would have likely chosen Drycha and Jon’s treelord and branchwych at the start of the game, and this helped George’s treelord hit Drycha for 2 wounds with his strangleroots as she closed in. Finally, George made a crucial 3+ roll for his treelord’s groundshaking stomp, forcing Drycha to fight last in the following combat phase. This proved to be crucial – with Heartwood's +1 to hit against Drycha, George’s treelord was able to rend the hateful bee-lady for 8 wounds, bringing her down just before she could strike with the full force of her squirmlings. George’s Turn 3 George healed a wound on his heroic treelord, and his arch-revenant’s Heroic Leadership scored him an extra command point. The treelord walked the spirit paths to George's overgrown terrain in his territory, to rejoin the front lines. George then ordered his kurnoth hunters and arch-revenant to continue their dogged advance forward, but decided not to charge Jon’s dryads in order to prevent the hunters from being bogged down in a fight of secondary importance. No, these hunters had their eyes on a bigger prize: Jon’s general, the branchwych, sitting on that all-important second objective. The treelord shot a couple Jon’s dryads, but could not to reach the branchwych with a charge that turn. With no combats, the round concluded with a single dryad fleeing from battleshock. End of Round 3: George lost his seekers to a double-turn from John, but his treelord stood firm and brought its full might to bear across 2 phases to bring down Drycha before she could fully join battle. Then, the treelord spirited itself away across the battlefield, leaving Jon’s own treelord and his backup spite-revenants standing alone in the dust. Meanwhile, George’s kurnoth hunters and arch-revenant were moving menacingly upon Jon’s branchwych, and that crucial second objective… Round 4 With a deft roll of 6, George took a double-turn of his own! George’s Turn 4 George again scored an extra command point from his arch-revenant’s Heroic Leadership. His treelord and kurnoth hunters, supported by the arch-revenant, moved in a pincer formation toward Jon’s branchwych general, who barely avoided the treelord’s strangleroots. Then, the pincer closed. The kurnoth hunters charged the branchwych, as did the treelord, who Stomped his enemy for a mortal wound. With a bolstering Call to Battle command from the arch-revenant, the kurnoth hunters cut down the branchwych before she could ever respond. Jon’s Turn 4 In his hero phase, Jon removed that last injury from his treelord, then sent the behemoth along the spirit paths in the subsequent movement phase to try to retake the centre objective. His dryads moved behind George’s kurnoth hunters to attack the arch-revenant. The dryads and the treelord charged, and easily reached their enemies. Jon’s treelord issued a Titanic Duel, but was slowed down by a Groundshaking Stomp from George’s treelord. The dryads, then, would have to be the first to fight in Jon’s combat phase. Though they made an All-Out Attack against George’s arch-revenant general, the revenant’s shield and defensive stance warded off every single one of their blows – and another Call to Battle command saw George’s kurnoth hunters turn the dryads to splinters with 8 mortal wounds from their greatswords, destroying the unit before ever making a single wound roll. Jon’s treelord fought valiantly, but could not bring down his opponent. At the end of his turn, George’s forces still held both objectives – and won the battle with a major victory! Outcome: Major Victory to George at the end of Round 4. Post-Mortem With their relative inexperience and the new Sylvaneth tome still fresh, both players made some notable rules mistakes, which are summarized below: Both players treated the range of the treelord’s Spirit Paths as 12” (incorrectly remembering the ability as having a 9” range, expanded by a further 3” from season of the Reaping) instead of 6” – the range of the Spirit Path’s teleport is 6”, not 9”, and Season of the Reaping only applies to the Places of Power and From the Woodland Depths battle traits. Since this affected both players equally, they ultimately determined that it was a balanced issue, although this did allow George to make a fairly important charge with his treelord in the final round of the game. However, if George’s treelord had not made that charge, Jon would still have had to have his Treelord kill 2 of the 3 kurnoth hunters in order to control the objective at the end of the turn. Both players thought they had misread the Spirit Paths rule towards the end of the game, and each made a move with their treelords after walking the spirit paths. This allowed their models to close a bit quicker, but ultimately did not affect the outcome of the game, since George did not charge after that move and Jon's charge did not get his treelord into combat fast enough to deal the necessary damage to change control of an objective. Jon initially forgot to choose his Glade, and did not apply his Gnarlroot bonus when casting Regrowth on his treelord in the first turn, causing him to fail the cast. The treelord healed enough wounds from Places to Power to regain a bracket level, and healed to full over the course of the rest of the game, rendering this issue moot. Jon forgot that his branchwych had the Crown of Fell Bowers. However, his branchwych was not alive during any of the combats where the Crown would have been applicable; as such, this did not dramatically change the outcome of the game. George forgot to choose the Hunted Target units for his Heartwood glade benefits until the second turn. Since the players agreed that he would have chosen the treelord, drycha, and the branchwych, this would have meant that he would not have had to spend a command point to issue All-Out Attack to his revenant seekers during their fight against Jon’s treelord in the first turn. Since George did not have many additional uses for his command points in the first round, this did not dramatically change the outcome of the game.

I've always thought it was a complete waste to toss the old Black Orcs themes of "orcs with actual soldiering competence, discipline, and smarts", and make the Ironjawz just "Big orcs in big crude armor" instead of a counter-culture movement that survived the age of Chaos by rejecting orruk traditional tactics (or lack thereof). 'Ard Kruelboyz would hit that spot real good for me.

Should we think about getting a 3.0 sub-board like the other Order tomes?