Scurvydog

Wanting to try this, even though I am aware units of 4 drakes is probably more efficient, I could see it work as is: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar- Grand Strategy: Beast Master- Triumphs:LeadersLord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- General- Celestine Hammer- Command Trait: Master of the Celestial Menagerie- Artefact: Luckstone- Mount Trait: Celestial InstinctsKrondys, Son of Dracothion (600)- Spell: StarfallBattleline2 x Stormdrake Guard (285)2 x Stormdrake Guard (285)2 x Stormdrake Guard (285)Total: 1955 / 2000Reinforced Units: 0 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 90Drops: 5 Luckstone could be switched for defensive artifact, possibly Amulet, but the luckstone would allow a guaranteed charge on something after dropping down from the sky, with all the stormdrake hero phase movement and such, you should be able to drop down where needed turn 1. Stardrake also gives Krondys +1 additional cast. It is a lot of points in the 2 heroes, but they can do some work. Thundershock is pointless on Krondys as everyone are at -1 to be wounded anyway as long as the Stardrake sticks around at least, so preventing a unit from pile-ins entirely could be a game winning element. Biggest problem is no single unit doing MASSIVE damage, so no real way to take down a mega gargants without some retaliation, however with high saves and -1 to be wounded, this should be manageable.

I'm guessing this is a bit more of a casual list, in that case take things with a grain of salt, but right now this list got a lot of slow dudes in small squads and no Lord Imperatant. That means it is very difficult to get these guys anywhere useful, as the annihilators can't drop closer thanks to the imperatant and the relictor can only teleport 1 unit. Even though paladins are tougher now, slogging it across the board with a 4" movement will not amount to much. I would recommend changing the 2x5 retributors to 10 protectors. They are great to teleport and much more efficinet in a big unit, both for commands, teleporting and they are also tougher with +1 saves, meaning with all out defense they can still sit at a 2+ against rend 1, being very hard to shift. There is not much wiggle room unless you drop hammers of sigmar and go knights excelsior for paladin battleline, but without a lord imperatant, I do not think you will get much mileage out of the annihilators when they have to drop in 9" away. If sticking with hammers, it could be quite fun to drop the vindictors and 1 unit of annihilators and instead get 2x2 fulminators, those guys hurt like hell on the charge so bad even 1 of them might kill a behemoth on its own. You could then send them in waves with the relictor after the protectors lock down their front lines. 230 points of fulminators charging like that are better than even hammer annihilators, as they are much more mobile, hit harder on the charge and can be a bit more flexible during the entire game.

Yea not really sure what they are thinking with the Prosecutors, they don't really fit in anywhere. Too pillowfisted to be shock troops, but their 3d6 charge indicates that is what they are meant for. 6 of them costs more than 3 paladors, which are just superior if pure mobility is the goal and just about anything else will do more damage for the points. It is a shame, I would rather have them as expensive elite types, expensive flying liberators is not really efficient in any way.

Great summary, this is also what I have been thinking regarding paladins and is keeping me lukewarm even on the new improved protectors, they are just so difficult to deliver into combat properly. Again we get the solution in the Drakes, they can simply move and charge in the hero phase, completely avoiding redeploy, unleash hell etc. This is of course why Gw wants to sell the annihilators, but that requires an expensive character and only works once per turn, which costs a LOT of points. You are well above 400 just to get an imperatant and 3 annihilators with hammers semi reliably into combat, that is 9 wounds worth of dudes. That is just 155 points shy of 36 wounds worth of Drakes that can zip around the battlefield, do monstrous rampages, move and charge in the hero phase, shoot mortal wounds, be at -1 to be wounded all around from 1 command trait and the list goes on. Even a 7" rerollable charge is ok, but far from a sure thing, so I just do not see it as a winning strategy consistently. For sure some will do well, but some will also fail miserably, having 480 points of hammer dudes standing around, which takes very little effort to remove at that point.

Strange thing is before this new tome, they went ahead and changed the old translaction, which prevented movement to how it works now, with no such restrictions. They even revisited the FAQ and did not change it there either. There was no reason to change the old translaction in that FAQ to this unrestricted version, especially just before a new tome, so that is why people give this some credibility. If there had been 0 FAQ changes to this before, then I would for sure expect a change in the first tome FAQ. That said I will not be running out and purchase an army based around this mechanic, at least not before the first FAQ hits for the new book.

Idea is to lead with warchanter on the "missile" Krusha to for sure murder the toughest thing possible, this is of course mostly against armies with little to no screens, which does happen sometimes. If there is no such clear target, this could be delayed a bit. Gruntas is a good target for a warchanter and highly efficient, you ideally want to at least trigger 2 smashing and bashing, so the tanky Krusha can manage without and still do some horrific damage by itself, they are still plenty scary, especially during waaagh just with the base warscroll stats. Problem with the Weirdnob is just how unreliable it is, any half decent enemy caster will just make him a waste of points most of the time I think.

Fire + Water = Steam So, AoS is coming to Steam obviously

Similar to the previous list, I think this list here is pretty well optimized for 3.0 with 2 MKs, 6 Gruntas, a second wave of brutes and some ardboyz for objective grabbing and/or a bit of screening. Running IronSunz The idea is as usual a terrifying alpha potential from very long distance, even if the opponent tries to flank, IronSun allow for counter charges, making it hard to lock down one thing without taking a massive counter punch. 3 Huge threats with fast movement and a 2nd wave of brutes that can clean up most things left standing. The fast MK with destroyer should kill a Mega Gargant on average, with a monstrous 38 average damage against a 3+ save during Waagh and if he uses all out attack + finest hour. This should basically kill anything and trigger smashing and bashing, to really cripple the opponent. Of course the usual weaknesses are present, such as poor reach, so armies with screens are as always a problem. Gotrek and Morathi are of course also a problem, as they are impossible to kill and will murder the relatively squishy Ironjawz. Might not be 5/5 potential, but it any lists without the tools to deal with these guys will get bashed good...

That is a really nice environment for Ironjawz, no Teclis, Archaons, Kairos, Belakors.. What a wonderful world for a Waaagh Interested in hearing the results from this though and the list performance.

So far the paladin heavy approach really seems to gamble on translocation staying the same, I would beware of running out and cleaning the shops for paladins before the FAQ. In addition to that, I also feel it is a bit of a gamble even then, with paladins only having 4 movement, even with translocation, that still leaves 5" distance, which with redeploy can become between 6-11" charge, that is not a sure thing at all, combo that with possibly annihilators and lord imperatant 7" distance, that is OK, but no guarantee either, so I think that might push the entire thing out of the competitive sphere, while it will for sure still crack skulls aplenty in more casual games. I think Dracothian Guards do the teleport trick just as well and can at least get within 3" with movement. 4 Fulminators is cheaper than 6 annihilators and only 10 pts more than 10 protectors. These guys do over 30 wounds against a 3+ save with all out attack on the charge, and that is without counting their storm breath, which will delete just about anything. Then again you could also just take drakes, relocate them and hero phase move+charge charge to entirely avoid redeploy and unleash hell. Although they will never be up for preorder, the warscroll is simply there to taunt us

Out of curiosity how does that list look? (Edit: Got my answer above) As I stated in another thread about the new 3.0 books, I think most shortcomings appear when compared to the borderline broken (or outright broken) top competitive options, such as Gotrek, Morathi, MW archer spam etc. Almost anything will fall short when that is the bar it needs to meet. They could give paladins 1+ saves and dmg 5 attacks, but that would hardly make any difference against those lists that dominate the top, that is how bonkers they are and makes the rest of the competitive scene impossible to balance in relation at this point. Drakes look so good as they have tools to deal with some of these, high movement, hero phase charges to reduce unleash hell from MW spam archers etc. I think the new Stormcast book lands in the better end of the "fat middle", aside from drake spam which might right now be low top tier, but can easily drop down with only points adjustments. In a more traditional wargame setting this book is quite good, many solid warscrolls, strong statlines, some more decently pointed than others, but there are cool things here. Multiple options to get battleline with rend 2 and 3+ saves, battleline shooting with rend 2 or MW output, boardwide teleport with movement after, strong spell lore etc. This only falls short against the above mentioned stuff. When going to a tournament now and you want to WIN you have a loundry list of things your list needs an answer for, as you will probably meet these if going 4/1 or 5/0 and quite possibly before. Can your list deal with blobs of sentinels or snake archers? Can your list handle Gotrek (kill or avoid), can you handle Mega Gargants? (need to be able to alpha 1 per turn), can you handle Archaon and Morathi? (again kill or avoid), Will your army completely be shut down by a Khorne demon prince? (half run and charges). This is crazy stuff and needs bonkers stuff to solve. Drakes just happen to have answers to multiple things on this list, thanks to extreme mobility mostly at an efficient cost for toughness and damage output. There is no simple solution to this, many new books will probably fall short of being able to deal with the above meta lists, as new books basically needs to be poorly designed to deal with equally poorly designed oppressive game pieces. It is an arms race everybody loses. I would almost have preferred GW did what they did in 40k going from 7th to 8th, where all books became invalid and everyone just used a rather vanilla compendium. It was sort of bland for each army, but it was also rather balanced and fun. The reduced complexity of the 3.0 tomes so far looks a bit like this, but this time they enter an environment where stuff like Lumineth 2.0 exists and Gotrek invalidates any combat warscroll you can think of, there is literally nothing you can come up with that can fight him at 430 points. The paladin list i posted earlier could be fun, but all an opponent needs to do is castle up around gotrek and screen a bit to soften the alpha, then just counter charge and destroy a paladin unit per turn with ease, there is 0 risk of him dying or not killing what he wants to, the meta is mad right now and new books got no chance of striking the right balance in that environment.

Well they are a standout, mostly because of decent point cost and the once per game hero phase movement, that is a big standout. I actually think the new battletomes are overall in a pretty good place, if all other tomes matched that place at least. There are without a doubt strong units in both the stormcast and orruk books, plenty of damage going around, especially the orruks got some very point efficient damage output, while the Stormcast get this damage in more expensive and elite packages. Sludgerakers are great monsters for around 300 points, with 14 wounds, good damage output and a massive force multiplier aura, so bringing more than 1 is entirely viable and probably a good idea in many cases if going for pure Kruleboyz. Ironjawz are still good, lost a few tools, but Megabosses got even more important and issuing commands to 3 units at once is a big deal, they will be fast and very very hard hitting, but besides the main MK they will be vulnerable. The issue appears mostly in competitive games, the usual suspects shut down so many things and a lot of cool list variations are just left out of tournament top tables, as they simply can't deal with almost unreasonable elements. Of course this is stuff like Gotrek (Can solo your army), Morathi, Archaon, MW spamming archers (Sentinels, snakes being most common), magic dominance (Teclis, Nagash, Slann's to some extent). These units/rules force a lot of choices in the meta, and gatekeeps what can be well performing, as they are so oppressive. My point is then, that we define what is a "competitively viable" battletome next to what is perhaps inherently broken pieces of the puzzle, the overperforming outliers, which of course becomes the norm for any tournament player. This skews my own perception as well, as event after event you just see the same stuff over and over, and the pool of available armies and warscrolls you can choose from, which has any chance to deal with these threats, is rather small. We see this for new battletomes every time, if they do not have the tools to deal with the broken stuff, they are deemed bad, if they do have the tools, that means the book might actually be broken as well, so while it can be considered competitively "good", it is not good for the game. As long as GW refuses to have any kind of overall supervision on the tomes to ensure they are designed in relation to each other, we will always end up with books that seem to be designed for entirely different games. As mentioned the Lumineth 2.0 is rather recent, but is about as far away from the 2 new AoS 3.0 books as possible. It is still too early to tell how the next books might look, it might not even look the same at all, as we saw with 2.0. Good news for these more simple new books is, that a lot of balance can be changed later if needed with points rather than extensive FAQs, as most things are rather straight forward. This is far more problematic with books with layers on top of layers of synergy. Personally I like this more simplistic format, but only if it is the sign of things to come. If the next books are suddenly bloated with command abilities and allegiance abilities with multiple synergy layers, then we will end up with the same situation as 2.0, where the 2 first books ended up incredibly weak compared to later additions. It would also make it easier for new players, as I can see it is very daunting for many to even begin remembering what each faction can do, when most of the power lies in allegiance abilities rather than warscrolls.

So as it seems dragons might take forever to release and will take some time to paint up, I am thinking about alternative competitive builds, which should at least be faster to paint up (and some can be done now!). I love paladins so my thoughts on a competitive build so far looks something like this: Yndrasta Lord-Imperatant Lord-Relictor (General with reroll prayer trait) 10 x Protectors 6 x Annihilators with Grandhammers 2 x Annihilators with shields 2 x Annihilators with shields Total of 1970 points Low on bodies and wounds, but strong saves. Not happy about taking mortal wound damage at all, but the idea is to alpha in a brutal way. Relictor teleports the 10 protectors, while the 6 annihilators drop down within 7". The other annihilators drop down on points/to deal MW and potentially tie up something. Yndrasta should ideally be in rez range of both big paladin units if possible, and can be an utility piece where needed. Of course clever screening can cause major problems for this list, if they can't get in proper and get hit with any major MW output, then they go bye bye, but against anything else they will be tough cookies to shift and also hit like a ton of bricks. 10 protectors with 4 hammers and unleash thy hatred will melt just about anything that needs to be melted. Same goes for the Grandhammers with just an all out attack. Unfortunately there is not enough points to do much with the 2x2 annihilators, as just 20 more points could have been 10 more protectors, so I went for the flexible choice instead. Thoughts and ideas? Other takes on a Knights Excelsior list?

Yea got an event for 09/10 which is now impossible to get a couple of drakes to. Then 2 competitive events in November which will be a true stamina test of painting, that is if they come up for preorder next and are not delayed even further... this GW release schedule is just infuriating, especially with 0 communication or expectations set, they just let people hope in vain.

*Slams head into table

Seems about right, I think we are OK on the named character front, although there are still some dishonorable mentions in there. The Prime, Yndrasta and Bastian are interesting choices which shines with different builds. The most specialized happens to be Yndrasta, as she really wants to be in the thick of it with the infantry, reviving annihilators and paladins, making them unbreakable and priming them to kill monsters but engaging and cripping them. Bastian is less reliant on being near anyone, his ranged ability is long range, and his command is good because it is board wide, so he can easily command faster units, like dracoths, chariots, drakes etc. while he sets of to do his own thing, He will rarely be a directly bad choice for any build I think. Celestant Prime is just good, but does not force multiply at all anymore, he is simply a rocket with a name. He will be very popular as an ally, as he does what he did before, just way better now with the ward, only losing bravery buff/debuff stuff, which is just fine compared to the massive increase in staying power he got. It can not be underestimated what effect he has on a game plan, that this dude with 8w and 4+ ward in turn 2 can teleport down and guarantee a 12" charge if needed, having 5 attacks, with all out attack on 2+/2+/rend 3/dmg 3. He might not one shot behemots or god characters, but he will cripple most he touches and force a lot of plays.

Pros: I like the simple approach, 3rd edition is more complex and the new tomes seem to bring the compexity layers down a bit for the individual army. In addition more rules are baked into warscrolls instead of allegiance abilities, such as warchanters, no reason for their chants to be allegiance abilities. Sub factions were always a bit hit and miss and often more limiting than diverse. Especially the stormcast book managed to present some interesting options, which unlock wildly different list types due to battleline unlocks. Warclans does this as well, but less options if you only enjoy 1-2 of the orruk types. Stormcast manages to present some varied ways of play and doubling down on certain types of stormcast without being super limited. Cons: Artifacts seem underwhelming and niche. Universal artifacts seem better most of the time. Command traits as well seem poorly balanced, with less choices and often 1-2 clear standouts. Not much different from before though, but nobody used them back then due to sub faction locking this often. Might be a pro then... eh Does not seem super well internally balanced, unit cost and efficiency is a bit all over the place. Core battalions and especially grand stategies + battle tactics seem mostly fluffy, but worst of all are those depending on random rolls, they are just so rarely going to be of any consequence, making them 90% pointless. Unlike Stormcast the Warclans book presents limited variation. The different types of orruks are locked behind keywords for nearly all abilities and almost no units benefit other orruk types. Kruleboyz casters and monsters buff Kruleboy abilities. Ironjawz megabosses only command ironjawz, Boneplitter shaman spells only work on bonesplitterz. The Sloggoth is the only unit that actually does anything directly for other orruks than its own clan. Conclusion: A bit of a mixed bag. I play both Stormcast and Ironjawz and I do not feel my armies got worse. Gordrakk is still terrible and so is Kragnos. Ironjawz stayed mostly the same, Mawkrushas and Brutes got better, lost a few allegiance abilties, but Megabosses command multiple units make up for this somewhat. Stormcast was such a bad book it could not have gotte much worse. They play largely the same, but some lacking units got some buffs, some did not, mixed bag, but at least a bunch of lists will be playable at mid tier level. Too early to say for Orruks, I fear Kruleboyz will be lacking staying power and mobility though, despite decent damage, but we will see what peopel come up with.

The lance is only 1 rend better on the charge, the swords will most likely be the better all around options. With the swords vs concussors, the drakes only do 0,2 dmg less on average against a 4+ save. So in that regard concussors are slightly more damage per point however lets see what else we get: For 65 points over concussors we get: +2 move and fly +6 total wounds Move + charge in hero phase (can be used to avoid unleash hell/reposition) 4+ spell ignore instant kill model ability (into the tempest) Monstrous rampages -1 to be wounded command trait synergy Far superior breath attack That is just nuts and just no contest for the points. I love all my painted up dracothian guards but there is no sensible reason to use them except for fun. The -1 to be wounded command trait for monsters really push the spam here for monsters, it ups the survivability a lot.

Interesting idea, I just do not think Karazai will be able to do the work of 4 Stormdrakes. Even more so, removing Karazai and the 2x5 vindictors is the equal to 3x2 stormdrakes instead, that is just way more wounds, speed and board presence. I just do not think 2 small vindictor units and Karazai can manage to put in the same work as 3 units of 2 stormdrakes can. This is for maximizing competitive lists though, otherwise go for it, it is by no means weak or unplayable. The big question now if going to events though is if you can handle Mega Gargants, and I do not think this list got the oomph to take them down relaibly without taking too much damage in return.

Paladors actually do OK damage now with their axes, around 9,3 average damage against a 4+ save is quite decent, almost the same as 2 concussors. They cost about the same points too, although much faster and can teleport, but worse save. They might not fit into S tier 5/5 tournament lists, but they are decent for sure. Vanguard hunters are super useful battleline, ok melee profile, a but of ranged damage and can teleport for 125 pts, not bad. Raptors still do fine damage and can at least bring a double tap once per game holy order too. A unit of aetherwings is still not bad for a 65 pts annoying unit and they can give those raptors +1 to hit while being annoying, worse way to spend 65 pts and about where they should be. For sure someone who excels at vanguard will be a player to behold I think, they will for sure be the thinking mans stormcast list to play well and maximize the confusion of being able to rapidly redeploy.

I cant see it take several weeks before they release the Stormcast kits though... but I fear they might skip a week next time for AoS after the Kruleboyz though...

Feel ya, I was ready to bonk my face into the table, finally the book is coming, but the damn drakes are still not here... guess I wont have them for my event on 09/10, that would require they release the week after and then only a week to collect and paint... Something tells me they will not be for preorder the following week, probably remaining 40k Orkz and 0 Stormcast...

Nooo only Kruleboyz stuff next week... sure hope they dont skip a week for 40k before returning to the rest of stormcast...

Yea Karazai just lacks a little something extra, although especially against single targets where the tail only gets 1 attack, he does far better against enemy monsters in a 1v1. I think his special rule might be undertuned a bit, he only gets the +1 attack if he kill a monster or hero, that is a bit steep and the other bonuses are largely unimportant. Heal 1 wound if you kill an entire unit? well ok I guess... Now if we had something to represent him being a scarred and gnarly dragon of war, he could have had a 5+ ward or a scaly skin like rule added to the -1 attack rule, making him more tough, as staying power really is a premium in this edition. A 5+ ward might make me take him over Krondys for sure, but ofc that will not happen now.

Not sure Bastian is worth it for 300 pts, sure he hits ok, and commands is nice and all, but I think the Prime might bring more utility to most lists at almost the same points, getting a 4+ ward really upped him a lot and we will see him even more as an ally and in many cities lists too. While many things got better, the book does indeed raise the question "why take this over Stormdrake Guards" or "why take this hero over a 255 pts Knight Draconis". They got everything you could want from this edition, fast flying monsters, with decent damage, saves and ranged attacks, with the option to move and charge in the hero phase, as a workaround to the most powerful tools such as redeploy and unleash hell. I think the Stardrake celestant got play too, nice that he makes the Stormdrakes battleline too. His ranged attack is quite nice, a bit more reliable melee damage and with the young star mount trait + command trait, he can be at -1 to be hit and to be wounded. Having that trait with -1 to be wounded in melee to ALL monsters in the army is just crazy good. This also dips into the big dragons, as that trait in a combo with their -1 attacks against them, makes them more durable than "just" 18W 3+ save might indicate. As for which big dragon, Karazai obviouisly does more outright damage, more attacks and rend makes him a decent beatstick. Not too sure if we compare him to a gatebreaker in Sons of Behemat as a golden standard of big smash stick monster. I think the more flexible choice that can decide games more often is Krondys, sure he does less combat damage, but with +3 to cast and if you bring a stardrake nearby, that is +4 to cast! Give him Starfall for example which can prevent enemy units from pile-ins, his own spell is also super flexible, you can reduce ranged attacks, perhaps halve the output of 15 bow snakes? You can reduce rend by 1 on a big scary and cast a mystic shield with +4, ensuring whatever needs to be tanked is tanked, or reverse reduce saves by 1, opening up those save stacking enemy monsters for your counter punch. I just see him as the superior piece on the board to allow adjusting tactics at least. Karazai is perhaps a bit more fun with just smash face and looks a bit cooler imo, but I think I will be building Krondys first at least.