Scurvydog

Hilarious, in a new MWG report Kragnos joins the fray next to some ogors. He stubs his toe on some dangerous terrain an takes 2 MW he cant ignore. Cries a lot so the wounded glutton next to him just dies (2 MW left) and he also does 3 MW to the tyrant next to them as well... truly a stunning centerpiece and rally point of destruction... 31:25 mark in the kragnos vs stormcast vid on yt.

Unleash hell in itself is not the biggest problem, there is a penalty and only 1 unit can be targeted, so this could create a niche for "linebreakers" like the new annihilators. The problem is all these newer shooting units do not care about the hit penalty, all they care about is auto mortal wounds on 5+/6+, making armored linebreakers entirely pointless or any other defense you can think of. A lot of armies do not have the ranged units to really make this ability broken, some like handgunners had it, but still did not break the game, simply because they are a balanced unit with counterplay and not extremely accurate. Units that always do the majority of their damage on unmodifiable rolls with no counterplay is the root of all evil.

The comment about inspiring presence seems to indicate this: On the flip side, you really need to think about Battleshock now, as only one unit can benefit from the Inspiring Presence command ability.

Good move from GW showing the 2+ save guys from the box so people go "hell yea!", then reveal every single opponent they face in the box will have mortal wounds on 6+ to hit, with the possibility for 5+ from the shaman. What armor?

I just don't hope we will see this for the crossbow orruks with 5+ mw effects. Lumineth is already a blight to the game due to this, the sentinels alone making support heroes without bodyguards unviable. It is a mechanic I wanted much less of, not more. So seems stormcast will pay a premium for armor saves which does not matter at all in the mw spam meta.

That was my thought as well, why show the "Big winners" and bother to namedrop a playtester with nothing to back it up, like comparing the retributors somehow to the annihilators. Do they do more damage? They are still the same "class" of unit, so if annihilators are the "defensive" guys with a 2+ save, maybe dropping some hints for retributors would be cool? My guess is all the other paladins go to a 3+ save and then more output in general. Retributors might get a higher rend or something I hope, that would make them stand out among the melee units. Judicators are only mentioned as big winners due to "quality shooting?" how? why? There are longstrikes and ballistas for that, judicators have been the bottom of the barrel for a long time, being over expensive and pathetic in melee as well. If anyone should be able to punch back a bit in combat it should be a stormcast who even has gladius sidearm. I own a bunch of these, so an optimist would rejoice that these units are mentioned as big winners and a new book on the way, The pessimist says this is GW trying to get rid of the old stock...

We dont even know the rest, but in the context we do know and also the current book, the army is big around deep strike and having access to a reliable source of +2 as needed is so huge. Command points will be a bit less hard to come by, so his free command is probably a bit less value than in a 2.0 context, but still universally useful. If he turns out to not be an auto include, that would only be because some truly crazy things turns up or he costs like 250 pts+

Ah yes, should not comment on new rules when tired I guess It is still a big deal it is the end of the turn and not the end of the phase anymore, so small screening units can still serve their purpose to some extent.

Except for the ends even 10 ogors in a line will be within 2 others, you will just have to have a "triangle" in each end, not the end of the world.

Wow that hero alone would make even the current book far more dangerous... Liking the sound of Retributors being the big winners, although I do not have all that much faith in the playtesters predictions... As they also mention coherency rules being important... well.. staying within 1" of 2 other models is also very possible in a simple line except for the very end of that line... not a big deal

In the interview it was pointed out how specifically he (sorry forgot the designers name) was most looking forward to revealing the new matched play rules and also that the 2021 GHB would have some interesting new stuff, so I certainly do not think this is just going to be the "narrative edition" far from it. It is great though that there seems to simply be more for everyone, as Crusade is really fun for 40k and having that kind of system for AoS is a bonus for everyone. Sure, my point was basically that these new rules really benefit the heroes on monsters or who are monsters. These were typically also the best before and while I think it will be fun and cool, it seems to leave the other types of heroes more in the dust, as you can only do 1 heroic action on 1 hero per turn, there is no real upside to bringing multiple smaller heroes, like Stormcast knight questors or something like that. I actually thought these heroic actions would be something for these small guys to do and bring value. Sort of like OBR at least gets 1 discipline point per hero per turn. If the heroic actions were like the rampages where you could use every one of them, but only 1 time per phase, there was still value in bringing support instead of just 1 archaon (for example).

I can already see it. Archaon: This is my finest hour! Also ROAR you cant use command abilities! Everybody else:

My Sons army will be happy with this, a Gatebreaker being able to both use finest hour and duel at the same time to get +1 hit and +1 to wound will be so darn scary. The new command ability structure will also help armies which so far had poor access to CP generation and cheap/good battalions, which for the gargants for sure brings the Stomper tribe further up. While I like these new rules some things are still "missing" but could still show up. 1. So far we have seen shooting rules and some new hero rules, none of these help out the suffering low wound support heroes on foot. I thought the new heroic abilities might be some incentive to bring more of the smaller cheaper heroes, with general getting more range and unit champion issuing commands, the smaller heroes got even less reason to be there. The few armies like Ironjawz relying so much on 5-6 wound foot slogging heroes seem to still be in trouble in the MW sniping meta. 2. This might appear in the objective rules or battle plans, but while extra abilities for monsters is cool, the reason monster work for Sons and Ogors is the model count rules. It makes no sense Archaon, a Stardrake or Kragnos should be unable to capture an objective because 2 freeguild guards are standing scared on the edge. In general monsters should probably be at 10 count if below 20 wounds and 20 count at 20 wounds+ models. Possibly this needed brackets, but so far it is what keeps SoB and Beastclaw ogor lists in the game, while a pure Stegadon monster Seraphon list is still a bad idea without painting up 50+ skinks to actually capture stuff.

You get 1 for the general and also 1 normally and then 1 more if going second. All rumors so far say CP does not carry over between battle rounds, so the person going second will always be at a CP advantage, and as they generate at battleround start, they got them all ready to use. In a lot of matches it is the round 2 to 3 double turn that is by far the most decisive, as currently players might already have blown a lot of the start CP, that will then change now. With the new commands rumored as well, such as stand and shoot, retreat to charges etc, you might not want to take the double as that CP difference can mean a lot. Taking the double turn in AoS 2.0 often means slamming down on an enemy starved for command points, while you just generated new resources. In AoS 3.0 this will be reversed with the CP reset, you will then have the initiative, but the oppoent will have more resources, plus anything else that might not have been shown yet. There was also rumors about battleplans having more stuff regarding going second, like Blades Edge currently works, where the player going second can remove objectives for example.

I think what rubs people the wrong way is when the rules are either so far of the mark it blows the mind the second you look at the warscroll, or that it does not fit with the look or lore of the model at all. Perfect example of lazy off the mark rules is poor Garvus Steelsoul, he lands like superman, creating a crater where he lands, he goes toe to toe with Belakor in the novel (he loses, but puts up a fight), yet he uses the basic Lord Celestant on foot warscroll but with a worse armor save! he has 4 attacks with 1 damage and a 4+ save instead of 3+ of the regular celestant on foot, and boy do we not see many lord celestants on foot as is... insanely lazy and clearly made by someone who never played Stormcast and reviewed by 0 people. We are talking rules being mocked the second they go out the door, any kind of critical eye on this work would spot and ask for a correction. If this was like free updates from a small company, fine, but this is a big company charging quite a lot of money for these books and it sometimes is just so sloppy and lazy. Broken realms has been quite a stark example of this, with some armies getting absolutely terrible additions, or simply pointless ones, like why even make the OBR battalion, it is the exact same setup as in the battletome, just worse rules... But the Aelves all in all did well for themselves, which widens the gap and player perception of the have and have nots of GWs attention and effort.

Right now they just seem to add "lords" to a bit too many things, with Kharadron Overlords, Lumineth Realm-lords and now Soulblight Gravelords it gets a bit much, rather than the name itself being all that bad. The best names are both descriptive and also lore/in game accurate, but most names are completely fine. I really like Sons of Behemat though, as that name is deeply rooted in their stories and mythology of the world, there is something to unpack, while also being to the point and clear who we are talking about. Sometimes less is more as well, Ironjawz for example, clear as day and no nonsense. Hey it could be worse, the new Orruks could have been Cruelstabbing Bogtyrants or Odorbountious Mireroyals

While I agree on a basic level it is so hard to balance just right, but there must be a happy medium between archers not caring at all about the knights that just charged into them, and also that a 30 man archer unit suddenly can't do anything at all if tagged by 1 grot within 2,8". However with the rumored flee response to charges, this might swing it in the archers favor by so much, that having them unable to shoot if engaged is sensible. I hope all in all we get something like 40k detachments, allowing some focused list but still with a lot of freedom. Right now too many armies simply build most of the same core every time, due to a few very strong battalions. I guess some factions will be sad to see these go, especially Fyreslayers, imagine those buggers without lords of the lodge. I really hope we get some detachment style stuff, so you can choose to build a core around "elites" although possibly with a slightly less command point bonus or whatever they got in store. For example so we could see Bonereapers play with Stalkers and Immortis guards as the backbone. Or stormcasts without the mandatory 3x5 derpy liberators waiting to get killed. I am also super excited about what they got in store with the new hero and monster rules. Some universal rules to have heroes or monsters not just count as 1 model for objectives would go a long way, but in general I hope for some changes to how model capture objectives, as it just really punishes some armies and lists right now that are already down.

While I do enjoy the new Orruks I can't help but feel a bit betrayed too, it just seems somewhat not needed for them to be there, when the same effort could have been used to flesh out the Orruk warclans, both which has been heavily neglected already in 2nd edition. I am thinking along the lines of what these new Kruul Boys bring to the table, this new box might as well have been warclans 2nd wave, with both some new ironjawz and updated bonesplitterz. It seems they are going for a darker tone though, and the old school orruks might have been too "funny" to fit this theme. They mentioned the new guys would be available for warclans, so I wonder what is planned wtih Orruks in general in 3rd edition, it seems to be a bit of a mess introducing a 3rd orruk faction, did we really need 3 different factions of orruks? The lead up to 3rd edition and ending 2nd with BR Kragnos seemed to indicate it was destros time to shine, and years of buildup with Gordrakk kind of turned into a wet ******, especially in the wake of Belakors success, nothing much happened in camp destruction in comparison. As something completely different, anyone else starting to get annoyed we can never even get a months advance roadmap or anything. This week to week release schedules and reveals is just super annoying, and it would be very very nice to be able to plan some vacation etc around hobby projects and events.

The rules are in a strange place I feel. On one hand I think a tome like the new gravelords som competitively weak in comparison to nay of the strongest tomes, especially the top 5. On the other hand the game itself would probably be better if all books were in line with the power level seen in Gravelords, as this matches most destruction armies, and also matches up to others like cities, Sylvaneth or even bonereapers. On the other hand many of these tomes present less interesting gameplay options than the current top books. It seems to be very hard for GW to create interesting mechanics that works sort of outside the rules of the core book. We can quickly see that the more a book pushes the boundaries of the core rules, the more powerful it is. The game is probably better of if less rules break the core rule setup, but either adds to it or introduces more fun mechanics instead of ignoring core concepts. By this I mean how the melee meta broke, which was caused by armies manipulating the core fighting order, combined with the high dmg and low survivability, causes melee armies with this mechanic to dominate. Adding in some got access to fight twice made this worse, so armies like Slaanesh, FeC and Fyreslayers really pushed the envelope. Then the range meta began, as fighting these super units was sure to ruin any tournament, this was then encouraged by GW with the advent of the super wizards and the mortal wound spamming. Now it seems GW is busy dialing back what made the melee meta in the first place, yet we are already long past that. Armies like Orruks that can boost damage lot with support heroes will still suffer, as it is now so easy to pick of these heroes. GW introduced bodyguard units to some armies relying on this, but not all, like the poor orruks. If GW is playing catch up still trying to curb a strong melee Meta which has been dead and buried for some time, then that will create some big problems. I just hope 3rd edition brings some more choice back, however so far nothing seems to hinder the oppressive casting and ranged mortal wound spamming, on the contrary if units can suddenly retreat from chargers, it might make them even worse. I hope that will not be the case though, and we see some rebalancing, allowing support heroes on foot to actually do somehing and not just die to the whims of uber wizards and sniper units and have proper melee scraps where it is not just who deletes who first.

Even more surprising that nearly all these warscrolls are terrible and rarely see any use. A huge amount of insignificant heroes and named characters, usually from multi kits (named + regular), this bloats their hero roster a LOT, while in reality leaving far fewer unique choices and even less actually viable ones for any kind of matched play. They have a kit building 3 variants of paladins, nobody uses them. They have a kit for building 4 different kinds of dracoth cavalry, yet hardly anyone uses them and so on and so on. Also 30+ warscroll battalions, that nobody uses... In reality it is easy for them to make many kits, as it is the same basic dudes being copy pasted with slight variations in equipment and only very few are viable for even half competitive matches right now. This leaves other armies with more actual meaningful choices when building an army, with more visual diversity and more interesting gameplay mechanics as well, yet the "quantity envy" still goes strong. Envy quality, not quantity (that said the new Stormcast models sure are quality imo, so rules will be less of an issue for sales)

I can't see how Kragnos fits into a Sons of Behemat army in any way. The only way to run that would be 1 mega gargant, 3 mancrushers, then 1 lonely mancrusher and kragnos. He needs to put in a LOT of work to replace an effective 40 model count for objectives and 60 wounds of gargants with his measly 18 wounds. He basically cuts down the armies board presence and capture potential by half and wound count by a third, while only providing around 50% more dmg than a single gatebreaker... He will not a LOT of help. I do not think there is any fixing him as is, he is at his core a Gotrek type character, instead of the other big gods who define their books, heck Archaons has a sub faction based entirely on his presence (Like it should be!). I really thought the Broken Realms Kragnos book would actually get the "Kragnos Whaagh" allegiance... but nothing at all for destruction than him. Not only wasted potential and boring rules, but also dramatically overcosted to add insult to injury. If he wa around 600 pts I might have considered him, but now it is just more money in the bank for the new AoS 3.0 stuff or cookies.

However unlike Marines in 40k, Stormcast do not sell quite as much so do not get the 2 books per edition benefit, so slowly drops in tiers for each other new book to then remain at the bottom for a year+ until the next edition. Maybe the rules will be good this time as they do not have to create 30+ useless battalions

I thought the same, although also heard some rumors about 3.0 going to points per model... as a stormcast player having every start set with 3 paladins when 5 are needed and they have 0 special weapons has been very annoying so far, sad to see that trend continue if this points per model is not true

My choice will be not to weep that my work on multiple liberator squads will be for nothing when the new sleeker vindictors come out and just try to rejoice the new stuff looks better... Although for some reason I was a bit relieved that the bow teaser turned out to be 1 hero and not new judicators so all those also got outdated 😜

I can see he got the other usual stats, like 4 move, still only 7 bravery and then 3 wounds nad 2+ save. He also has 3 attacks with 3+/3+/rend 1/2 dmg. I'd say with those stats it is somewhat likely that the other paladin type stormcasts will see a bump to 3+ saves and probably some more damage output if this is the "defensive" guy. Impossible to make out any of the ability text, although we know one of them will be some kind of mortal wound on the charge (boy will that happen a lot with 4" move!). Normally effects on the charge is not what you want on your snail speed anvil unit