Isotop

"Q: A Sylvaneth Gnarlroot Wargrove can include an ORDER WIZARD, and a Sylvaneth Winterleaf Wargrove can include an ORDER unit. Are such units allies? A: Yes they are. However, because they are part of a Sylvaneth warscroll battalion, they do not count towards the number of allied units you can include in a Sylvaneth army, and their points will not count against the number of points spent on allied units for a Sylvaneth army in a Pitched Battle. Note that although they don’t count against these limits, for all other rules purposes they are treated as being allied units, and therefore can’t be given artefacts of power, know spells from its spell lores, and so on." (https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Core-Rules-and-Bases-Sizes-EN.pdf, page 8 top right corner)

They do stack. But so do Waagh! and Waagh! / Mighty Waagh! and Mighty Waagh!.

Well, that is not actually what I said. Sure, there are effects that prohibit movement at all. It is clear that a model has not moved under any circumstances when affected by such an instance. But when a model can move and decides to move 0", the model has indeed moved (even though it did not change its position). I am not sure if I was not clear in my initial response or we are talking about different things. In any case, I would be glad to clear things up (if nessecary).

Last weekend I played the aforementioned match vs Ironjaws using the Harvestboon double Durthu list. We played Focal Points and my opponent was provided the first turn. His list was: Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: AqshyLeadersMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- General- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth- Trait: Ironclad - Artefact: Ignax's Scales Orruk Megaboss (140)- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: The Boss Skewer Orruk Warchanter (80)Battleline20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)5 x Orruk Brutes (180)- Pair of Brute Choppas5 x Orruk Brutes (180)- Pair of Brute Choppas3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron Choppas3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron ChoppasBattalionsIronfist (180)Bloodtoofs (120)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 133 During deployment I basically braced for impact. I positioned both units of 30 Dryads in front of my army and put the Spirits of Durthu and the Kurnoth Hunters directly behind them. My opponent used Waaagh! two times (resulting in +2 attacks, no sixes rolled) and charged my front line with the Ardboys, the Mawcrusha and one unit of Pigs. I lost around 25 Dryads in total and killed 3 or 4 Ardboys and a single Pig. The key moment in this first turn was the Spirit of Durthu with Ghyrstrike attacking the Mawchrusha and dealing 0 dmg - I had no Wyldwood next to him and therefore he "only" had 3 attacks 2+/2+/-2/6. The Mawchrusha with Ironclad still has a 4+ armor safe in this instant and succeeded on all of them, which was a shame. My opponent scored 4 points. My first turn consisted of some Wyldwood and Realmroots shenanigans and trying to kill off the Mawchrusha. After the dust settled the Mawchrusha was left standing with 4 or 5 wounds (2 Spirits of Durthu shooting, 2 Kurnoth Hunters melee, 1 Spirit of Durthu with Ghyrstrike next to a Wyldwood melee). The second Spirit of Durthu was clogged with Ardboys (not much was happening here since the Spirit suffered 3 mortal wounds via a Realmscape feature). As mentioned, Dryads teleport on one of the outer objectives, outnumbering a single Warchanter parked there. I score 4 points. My opponent wins the roll-off and goes to work. Short version: The Gyrstrike-Spirit and the Kurnoth Hunters get killed, the other Spirit survives with 4 or 5 wounds. Some Dryads and Ardboys and Pigs are plinged off. My opponent holds the central objective (Warchanter and Brutes) and one of the objectives near his deployment zone - he scores 3 points. All I can do at this point is picking up as many victory points as dryadly possible. My opponent left one of his obectives alone and a Branchwraith is able to summon a unit of Dryads onto it (my starting Wyldwood reaches from my deployment zone to his). I leave the second Dryad on one of my objectives, holding it vs the Mawcrusha and teleport the rest of the Dryad unit also stationed there into the same Wyldwood I just summoned the new unit in. I am able to conga line the unit all the way to the central objective (but they still have to succeed in charging the Warchanter there). The first (summoning) Branchwraith follows up to have the re-roll on the charge. I make the 8+ charge on the re-roll and take control of the central objective. The Spirit of Durthu fighting with the Ardboys fails to kill enough of them and I just tie my opponent on this objective. I score 6 points. I win the roll-off for the third turn and go first. The Spirit of Durthu finally dies. All Dryads retreat and hold objectives. I score 6 points. My opponent starts gobbling up Dryads all over the place and takes back most of the objectives. He scores 6 points. The score is 16/13 in my favor but I have basically nothing left for the last two turns of the game. We estimate he would take nearly a full score in turn 4 and 5 and call the it there. I am a bit in a hurry, so my evaluation of this game will follow later this night or tomorrow. I hope the report is not too messed up. I look forward to a possible discourse with you folk.

I just realized that Hand of Dust does not even need line of sight. However, the point I was mentioning applies to every spell he wants to throw through the Umbral Spell Portal that requires line of sight. Since the Spell Portal is not flying, Nagash has to be in range himself when we hide a model in a Wyldwood.

Correct. There is no categorical difference between moving 3, 5, 1000 or 0 inches. Some people have the concept of "moving 0" = not moving at all" on their minds. But this concept, while being somewhat intuitive, is not represented in the rules in any way.

Played almost exactly this list on Sunday. The only thing I did different was "splitting" Ghyrstrike and Warsinger between the two Spirits. The general mobility and ability to strike wherever you want (7+ rerollable charges go a long way)is great. The benefit of excluding Alarielle from the list is that you do not have a big missle attack and spell magnet. The Spirits of Durthu can be parked in a Wyldwood (and on an objective hopefully) and be immune against a lot of "ranged" threats. Even Nagash can not reach out to them with Hand of Dust via the Spell Portal since it does not fly (he can bombard them with other, longer ranged spells, though). Blocks of 30 Dryads are just insanly durable and your opponent has to look out for Realmroot conga lines all the time. Sunday was the first time I played this list and it was vs Iron Jaws Bloodtoofs one drop. Luckily I won the "starting" roll and could consequently build up a table-wide network of Wyldwoods + alpha strike one of my opponent´s flanks. We played Scorched Earth and the mobility of this list (7+ rerollable charges really add to the "normal" mobility of other lists) was an insane advantage. The day after tomorrow we will have a re-match with the Iron Jaws going first automatically (want to test out how Sylvaneth work out in this case) - I am really excited for this since I think it will be much more of a challenge due to limited Wlydwood placement going second. I will keep you guys updated if you like 😅

Played Harvestboon yesterday. Had the usual Ranus + Blessing Branchwraith. First turn, rolled a 1 and a 2 for Verdant Blessing. I was happy to have Nagash-level casting power on my little twig girl.

Casting Verdant Blessing while being equipped with Ranus Lamentiri succeeds on a 4+! Hope you did not fail-cast too many times because of this 😥

He plays Gnarlroot - it allows one ORDER WIZARD to be included as an ally without any of the normal restrictions. Winterleaf could also include her (allows for an ORDER UNIT).

*double post

Great work! I have a question regarding 2.2, tough. In my view Treelords, Treelord Ancients and Spirits of Durthu are not excluded from using Navigate Realmroots - the simply have an alternative way of "teleporting". If this is true, you should remember to always use Navigate Realmroots instead of Spirit Paths, since the Tree-bois are not affected by a roll of 1 when using Navigate Realmroots. They simply get the added chance to roll a 6 and be able to move again (which they can not get by using Spirit Paths).

Yes, you are 100% right

Yeah, that is exactly how it works (as far as I can see). It has to be moved up to 8" or any distance between and including 0" to 8". After its movement, it causes the damage. Moving it 0" still counts as a movement, as far as I know 🔪

Or 0", to make things simple 😅

Thanks mate, this clears things up! I am not a Nighthaunt player myself and had no acess to the battletome. I just went with the wording @Baldur provided. @King Taloren: I honestly do not know what you are talking about for 80% of your post. A lot of times you do not even react to the points I came up with. Your opportunism is really starting to annoy me at a personal level. Sorry for the harsh words, but you should really look into the rules and arguments a little deeper before joining the conversation in such a hostile manner.

I agree, an eligible unit must fight. I do not see how not being able to attack makes a unit not eligible. I think we can agree that every "must" includes the implicit statement "if possible". So, yes, a unit picked to fight must attack after piling in, if possible. If you disagree with this implication, feel free to dicuss. The problems I am seeing with your understanding are the following: (1) A unit that charged in the same turn is eligible to be picked for fighting (even if it is not within 3" of an enemy unit when it is picked). Would you say a unit that can not reach enemy models with their pile-in + weapon range become not eligible (because it will not be able to attack)? (2) A unit engaged with an enemy model equipped with the Dopelganger Cloak will not be eligible before the bearer of the Doppelganger Cloak attacked. Is this your intention? (3) Imagine the following scenario: There are two units in melee combat with each other (within 3" of each other). There are no other combats happening. Both units are affected by Soul Cage. What happens here?

Yeah, I never said you can not re-roll when rolling a 1 and the rules do not support this either. Since re-rolls are applied before modifiers and a roll of a 1 lets the roll fail before modifiers you are obviously allowed to re-roll natural 1s. Taking the rules reference in the quote above, there are two things that can happen when rolling to wound: (1) Your roll (after re-rolls and modifiers) equals or beats the To-Wound characteristic of the weapon you are attacking with. You proceed with the save roll. (2) Your roll (after re-rolls and modifiers) is below the To-Wound characteristic of the weapon. The attack sequence ends. (3) Your roll is a 1 (after re-rolls) before it gets modified. The attack sequence ends. First of all, I hope I did not deduced too much from the rules. If you think so, feel free to tell me what I did wrong. The real question here is: What does "the attack sequence ends" mean? There are two different meanings that would make sense to me: (4) Finish the step (in this case "2. Wound Roll") you are in right now but do not proceed to the next one (5) Finish instantly If (5) was true, there would be no roll to be modified and chaning the rolled 1 to another reuslt would not be possible. If (4) was true, you could indeed stop the Skullreapers from wounding themselves. I think it is pretty obvious that I was implicitly arguing for (5) to be true, but I totally see how others might think of (4) being correct. Two examples of weird results arising from (4) are the following: (6) A model with the Sword of Judgement and a +5 To-Hit buff causes mortal wounds on hit-rolls of 1 (5 Warchanters can do this in Ironjaws) (7) Same for Bloodletters Decapitating Blow (I guess 5 Slaughterpriests could do it?) In any case, something GW should look into regarding the next big FAQ.

Yeah, it must attack. Not being able to attack (because of Soul Cage) does not make the unit not eligible. What I am saying is: You can pick the unit to fight - if you do so, you can pile in (Soul Cage does not stop you from doing so) but you will no be able to attack. What exactly is not clear about this? The core rules do not say a unit has to be able to attack in order to be eligible for fighting.

How can the "roll itself" be modified after ther attack sequence ended? I think I showed pretty clearly that a rolled 1 ends the attack sequence before modifiers take place. I would like you to support your claims with the core rules in order to have a productive discussion on the topic. @Darksteve, same for you, mate. I hope this does not sound to harsh - I really do not want offend anyone (really).

I do not see how a Spirit of Durthu is "very swingy" with a Gyrstrike attached to him. In my opinion this combination represents one of the most reliable sources of damage in the game (reliable MW spam being better, though). I do not see how tree revenants need a new warscroll. They are a 80 points battleline filling unit that can come in very handy in certain missions. Additionally, in Household, they can punish a strung out horde unit (not saying it happens a lot, but the opponent has to take care). To be honest, I do not think that Alarielle is undercosted (at least not by a lot). Substracting the Dryads or Kurnoths she summons, she is at 400 points. I would add a little bit on top of it, since a "normally" bought and deployed unit has more freedom of movement (because of Navigate Realmroots). Her ranged attack is unreliable, her melee damage is okay, but also pretty unreliable in my opinion. She is very squishy when faced with a dedicated melee unit and it is a lot of work to screen her because of her huge base. I did not really play against ranged-heavy armies so far but I imagine her to be pretty killable there as well. 4 Ballistae + Ordinator at short range will bring her down to 4 wounds on average. The problem I am seeing is that she is the one thing being visible behind the screen of Wyldwoods (due to being a flyer). In my view her really strong parts are mobility and triple spell casting/unbinding. But all things considered, she is a jack of all trades, which is not the best thing to have in every situation. I am a newer player (have around 20 games under my belt), so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I wonder if you, @Grimbok, are a very experienced player to cast such a harsh judgement on Sylvaneth. Maybe you just did not experiment enough with alternative builds? I am about to try out what Winterleaf/Harvestboon have to offer, but until now I only played Dreadwood and found it to be a very effective build (and quite the opposite of "defensive and dryad spamming"). On my first tournament last weekend I was able to get 2nd place with the same Dreadwood - playing, amongst other things, against Idoneth Deepkin, Nurgle and Nighthaunt (winning against all three to different degrees). I realize one tournament is no proof for something being effective on a larger scale, but it shows that you can have sucess with something else than dryad spam. Finally, I really wonder why you are so salty (no offense).

Any unit within 3" of an enemy unit and/or any unit that made a charge this turn is an eligible unit. Therefore, under the current wording of Soul Cage, there is nothing stopping you from fighting with such a unit at any point of the combat phase. I think your understanding/definition of eligible goes a little too far. If I misinterpreted you or missed anything, feel free to correct me.

As I quoted, the rules say "A wound roll of 1 before modification always fails [...]" (emphasis mine) and that the attack sequence ends the moment you fail your wound roll. Could you explain how you duduced the ordering you presented from the core rules?

(1) Yes, you have to attack when you are picked to fight in the combat phase (after you piled in - which you do not have to) (2) Yes, you would "waste" your attacks in this scenario (3) Not sure what you mean by "turn order". The players take turns picking units to fight with (remember fight =/= attacking) Just to clear possible confusion: The term "activating" you used is called "fighting" in the core rules. Soul Cage does not stop a unit from being picked to fight. It just stops the unit from making their attacks when picked before all enemy models attacked. A relevant situation to use this option would include a unit of Skinks affected by Soul Cage. They could be picked to fight in order to use their Wary Fighters ability. Otherwise, I did not say it is a good thing to pick a unit to fight when they can not attack due to Soul Cage - but it certainly is an option 😅. Skinks reference: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-skinks-en.pdf

@Lhw can you tell us how the "using Navigate Realmroots on freshly summoned units"-topic is handled on (big) tournaments? There was quite a confusion about it in the recent past.