Tropical Ghost General

September 8, 2019

14 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

Want to play them competetive in tournaments

As much as I love spooks, you'll have better success in LoG or using ghosts in LoN tbh.

While we can get excellent movement, pure NH lack the current must haves to be competitive, summoning and a decent stake in the activation wars. Without either of these, we will always be in the lower tiers.

September 7, 2019

So who else is keen to know whether we'll get any ally options with the new bonereapers?

I have started running a local narrative/open play night as a counter to the ridiculous arms race currently going on with the AoS meta. And last night I dusted off my Fec and took a fluffy and naff FEC list. Just basic ghouls and one blob of 6 horrors. Jebus Christmas, the horrors just mutilated whatever they touch. And it made me realise just how far behind us ghosts are. It's great to hear that we've had some good placings in tournaments recently, but it doesn't change the fact that we are going to struggle if the next slew of books follow the current trend for being gross and OP.

August 23, 2019

So played a friendly game against Gloomspite last night. Mission was scorched earth. My opponent was running a super heavy endless spell list. And in between the silly amount of mortal wounds being dealt, having negative modifiers to casting while they had positive modifiers to casting/unbinds, the large groups of grots getting auto-immunity to battleshock due to the loonshine and having so many minuses to hit (ranging from -1 up to -3, from netters, spells and spiders) I lost horrendously 😂.

I honestly can't think of how to overcome the combination of:

opponent being able to farm a ridiculous amount of CP (got 5 in one turn alone, had potential of getting 8 in a turn 🤮)
have battleshock immunity basically army wide
have a silly amount of negative to hit modifiers to overcome
being hit with countless mortal wound spells and endless spells
having to deal with negatives to casting, whilst dealing with them having bonuses to casting/unbinds

It really was one of those games that was decided really early on, and while I could have dragged it out and potentially eked out a draw, I was on the backfoot from turn 1. It didn't help that I failed 70% of my charges (even with re-rolls) and my own attempts at CP farming, using the penumbral engine and kurdoss failed to net me a single CP for the entire game. I won the priority for turn 3 and had a group of 5 blades made the 9" charge the I could have won on objectives, but it didn't happen. I had a similar experience against Gloomspite at Blackout, and the combination of all the stuff listed above is just so difficult to have to chew through.

So anyone have any ideas on how to counter those sorts of army bonuses, as it's not just Gloomspite who can do this stuff?

August 23, 2019

I play pure ghosts and hate inspiring presence and bravery. I have bravery 10 across the board but super squishy heroes compared to every other faction, so having a guaranteed chance to use inspiring presence rarely ever happens, as most good players will always target the squishy heroes first to prevent me being able to use it. And outside of penumbral engine, kurdoss and aeatherquartz brooch (all of which are super temperamental anyway), ghosts have no way of getting the extra CP required to effectively be using IP on a regular basis throughout the game . And as the army has little to no healing and absolutely zero unit resurrection, it means that I can't run hordes as a ghost player because they are so susceptible to running from battleshock as soon as they start to lose even a few models, and once they are gone, they are gone.

I have had so many games where my big blobs of 40 rasps or 30 grims get hit by sheer weight of dice, and if half the unit dies (which is very easy to do in the current meta, especially as big blobs of ghosts won't get the wholly within 12" death saves or the heroes who grant them the 6+ are already dead), so the rest will just autorun from battleshock. And when you play an opponent that can auto pass their battleshock every single player turn due to a terrain piece or by having a shed ton of CP to use, it definitely creates a feeling of butt hurt and jelly belly. And I know that a 4+ or 5+ ethereal save is good, but having a 50/50 chance or 33/66 chance of making your saves against 50-60 attacks is never going to end well 😂.

But I have an issue with bravery in general. My army is meant to cause lots of bravery debuffs and has multiple attacks, abilities and artefacts that rely on bravery bombing to be effective, but the most you can get is the army wide -1. GW sort of made a bandaid with LoG but it's not a proper nighthaunt army, it's like the inbred cousin of NH and LoN, it's like GW admitting that they messed up the NH book and have gone "here you go, use this shiny new thing and don't look at the crippled battletome in the corner struggling to breathe as it's on it's last legs". The NH book is so bad for bravery, there is even a command trait for a ghost general called - Terrifying Entity - it relies on your 5 or 6 wound general surviving the previous turn of combat as it only affects units within 3" in your hero phase, so already not off to a great start as the likelihood of a 5-6 wound model surviving combat in the current meta is so slim, but you then have to roll a single dice, not two dice, a single dice, and you have to equal or beat the bravery of the unit(s) within 3" to make them forcibly retreat. As the average bravery in the game is 6, it's literally the worst command trait in the game. Ghosts in the fluff are the most prominent cause of terror and fear, yet in the game they are one of the most susceptible armies to the bravery mechanic, and they even have bravery 10 FFS. I honestly believe that you could make the entire army immune to battleshock and they would still struggle to keep up with the current meta, they would be so much better and they could go back to being a horde army rather than MSU and it would be thematic and fluffy as well, but that will never happen.

The GHB did add some extra generic command abilities to the game, great, but let's be honest, IP is still the best by a long way. The re-rolls to hit are something that most units already have in the game and has only been added as a patch by GW to let the older and out of date factions have a slim chance of keeping up in the current meta, they offer little or not help to any of the newer books, as they already have a shed ton of natural re-roll abilities anyway.

TL:DR - I play ghosts and they have high bravery but suck serious plums with dealing with battleshock immunity in the current meta, both in being able to regularly use it and having to overcome it being regularly used by opponents. And they suck plums in general with dealing with bravery in the game.

August 19, 2019

This event is almost fully booked now, but we might be able to extend the spaces for anyone who is interested.

Also it's worth clarifying that we are using the Battlehost configuration for the 1500pts. That means 3 battleline, but also up to 6 leaders and up to 400pts of allies.

August 19, 2019

It was a great event. I had lots of fun. Missions, realms and stuff were fine and overall it was a great experience.

Only two issues for me. One was the general heat inside the venue, it was sweltering. Not sure what could be done to help with that, maybe free drinks 😜.

The other was the best in alliance awards, which is basically going to always be going to the latest grossness at the time. Playing pure spooky bedsheets (none of that LoG garbage 😂) I'm under no illusion of getting anywhere near the top half of the overall results, and playing a weaker faction it means it's impossible to even compete for best in alliance when newer books are always going to be getting those results that puts them higher up the standings. I wouldn't expect trophies or anything, but it's nice to be able to get some recognition that you are the best at your particular faction for that event, rather than being another meta chaser or something. (disclaimer: I wasn't the top ghost player btw, I lost that accolade to my friend by a mere 6pts 😂).

August 13, 2019

So question to the group. I have the cards for FEC, but how do they play in Warcry?

August 13, 2019

9 hours ago, Evil Bob said:

So early AoS was plagued by mortal wound spam

100% agree. At Blackout, there was so much mortals that it becomes a bit of a arms race to see who can produce the most. Armies that have no counter to mortals just die instantly. I'm glad death units can sometimes get access to a mortal wound save, but not happy that so many other armies get either/and multiple options and at a lower roll value as well. I would be happy if they made them super sparse again.

August 13, 2019

6 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

could use a simplification

That's why they've started changing it to be just reroll hits, to speed things up and make it less complicated, only issue is that they haven't bothered amending the older books of AoS 2.0

Lady O is a pure mortal wound assassin, but the range is short. With reaping scythe she becomes half decent in combat. Her warscroll spell is awesome but she is a priority target as soon as she hits the board. If you don't use her aggressively then your not getting her points cost back. She becomes a little bit gross in a double execution horde list as the general as well, only issue there is that SHs suck plums at decent and consistent offensive output.

6 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Is Kurdoss a better assassin

Yes, because of the base size. He has a smaller footprint and a natural 6+ death save, which other units don't. And his -2 rend often reduces stuff to a 6+ or no save. Again his damage is spikey but he'll often do enough to take out those smaller to midsized heroes in a single turn.

August 12, 2019

5 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

they're -1 to hit

It's how all negative modifiers used to work, because 4+ is a successful hit, but then the -1 modifier turns it into a 3, which makes it fail. Same thing goes for blades re-rolls with a torment if they are at -1 to hit.

Against the gloomspite my blades were -3 to hit. So they normally hit on 3s, with re-rolls of 1 and 2, but in this case they hit on 6s, and because 3s, 4s and 5s were successful hits before the -3 modifiers, I was only able to re-roll 1s and 2s. This is the huge boon that having 're-roll hits' has compared to 're-roll failed hits' has. And it's around Skaven/FEC that it started to change.

5 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

How did you feel about taking all 3 special characters?

Lady O is unfortunately essential. She does too many mortal wounds not to take and being a double caster is just so strong.

Mr. K is the closest thing we have to a big smashy hero. I use him as a suicide attack on my opponent's general, due to getting those re-rolls. Most players take smaller heroes as their general because they want their monster heroes to get into the thick of it and as a result the big monster hero might die. So having a small(ish) base that can be teleported behind enemy lines with the dreadblade, to attempt to assassinate their general is brutal when you make that sweet 10+ charge. It's also worth having him on the board from turn 1 for his CP steal ability (which should be on a 4+ imo), because when you steal it it sets your opponent's plans back.

Reik is only worth taking if you have spells that you desperately need to cast. I take the purple sun, casts on an 8+, getting a +3 helps make it more of a certainty. His fast movement helps with zipping around to offer hero support to units. He's worth using to target 4-6 wound heroes, due to his 2 damage (and potentially 2 mortals) from his scythe. He also works well at reclaiming objectives from units of 10 single wound models, due to his warscroll spell and his weapon re-rolls against 5 or more models. The biggest issue is his single cast and stupidly short range on not only his, but also the spell lore spells.

Overall it's a lot of points, but what other options do we really have 🤷‍♂️?

In an ideal world our named heroes would be 3+ ethereal. Or we should be exempt from the cap on how many heroes we can take in a list. If you add up the 6 most expensive hero options in most armies, they are at least 2-3 times more expensive than ours are, sometimes even more. Lady O, Mr.K, Reik, Briar Queen, KoSos and GoS = 1010pts. In comparison FEC who have one of the most limited options for models in the whole of AoS and have no named characters is: GKoZD, GKoTG, AR, Varghulf, GK and Courtier is 1540pts and something like LoN (Nagash, Vhordrai, VLoZD, Neffy, Mannfred and Arkhan is a whopping 2870pts. As heroes play such a large part of the game, not having access to big heroes is such a nerf.

If you go the other way, Cairn Wraith, Tomb Banshee, Lord Ex, Dreadblade, KoS and Torment = 530pts. 6 cairn wraiths are a measly 360pts. I think lifting the hero cap would help us with getting sufficient hero support when we need it. Again it's a pipe dream that won't happen so 🤷‍♂️.

August 12, 2019

The main issue was the entire event was clearly split between the armies that have access to:

re-roll hits, rather than re-roll failed hits
summoning or entire unit revival
first first/make you fight last mechanics (that are actually reliable unlike Soul Cage)
fight twice in a row
battleshock immunity
healthy and easily accessible re-roll hit and wound mechanics
unmodified attacks doing either extra attacks or mortal in addition to regular damage

Now we have WoT, which helped turn the tides in several games, but it still wasn't enough to be able to auto-delete units in 80% of the occasions it went off.

We do have Soul Cage for activation wars, but it requires the target to be within 12" of the caster and the caster to get a chance to use it in the hero phase and then also to successfully cast it and it not be auto-unbound or regular unbound. Overall not being able to engage in the activation wars is crippling and also very unenjoyable as a gaming experience.

We do get some decent re-roll options with some units, but compared to stuff like plague monks or DoK or eels or lots of others, it's pretty naff and no way nearly on the same level. And when we get hit by any minus to hit modifiers it crippling. Taking grims as an example, normally hit on 4+ re-roll failed hits, with a -1 to hit, you are hitting on 5+ and not re-rolling those 4s. It's a subtle difference, but with weight of dice and attacks, it makes a huge difference not re-rolling 25% of the failed hits.

Not doing mortal wounds in addition to damage is also painful. So many armies now get mortals in addition to other damage and extra hits. There was plenty of times where another 1-3 wounds would have killed the target, but the 6's for mortals didn't help to take it over the edge.

To be honest, the thing that I noticed the most from this recent tournament was just how many mortals were flying about. It seemed like every action that an army took dealt out mortals. The opponent moves their models, that's D3 mortals. They charged that's a mortal wound for every 4+. When my models die on a 3+ that's 1 mortal and 6s do D3 mortals. Talking to my friend afterwards, who playing lizards at the tournament, he's going to change his list to include a shed ton of more mortal wound dealing units, because he can't compete with the amount that it being thrown around at the moment. Now we are lucky in that we get a 6+ to save it (if we are wholly within) but it's still not great tbh. I'd like to see Death in general getting a bit more survivability against mortals and against battleshock. As a grand alliance we are the terror causing endless hordes, but have so few ways to be immune to battleshock unless you have lots of CP, which has now been capped to just 1 extra per army, unless you take battalions, but LoN has guff battalions and ghost ones aren't much better, and LoG don't even have battalions. FEC are doing OK, but there's only 2 that are any good really.

Overall I'm not sure that I'll be continuing with ghosts competitively until something changes drastically with the overall meta. I'm not sure what it's like elsewhere in the world, but in the UK the current state of the game is not good for Death in general and I can't see it changing until next GHB points changes in Dec/Jan. I had been working on an ogor based mixed destruction army for a few weeks and then they announced the new tyrant model and new book, so I'll probably be moving onto that tbh or to the newer Death faction book. I'll still be playing my ghosts, but not at tournaments, as they just can't compete with the new grossness and without warscroll and battletome changes, they won't be able to, points changes twice a year won't make any difference with whether an army can deal with being made to first last in combat after being attacked twice.

August 12, 2019

15 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Do you think you would have done better with a more optimized list?

Yeah, a little bit, but still not much.

So my list was:

++ 2k Golden Ghost Army ++
Dreadblade - General (Ruler of the Spirit Hosts), Midnight Tome - Spectral Tether
Lady O - Reaping Scythe
Kurdoss
Reik - Soul Cage
Spirit Torment
Guardian of Souls - Spectral Tether
3 x Spirit Hosts
10 x Rasps
10 x Rasps
10 x Grims
10 x Harridans
5 x Blades
5 x Blades
4 x Myrmourn
Penumbral Engine
Purple Sun
Shards
14 drops - 1980pts - 7 underworlds deployment options

So stuff that I took that wasn't great was: 3 SHs, 10 harridans, regular GoS - 420pts. Out of everything they didn't do nealy enough work. The GoS at points meant I was occasionally wounding on 2s, but not often tbh, and it's not as decent as the torment for guaranteed revivals. The cast/unbind was ocassionally useful but not much.

I'd swap them out for something like this instead:

++ 2k Golden Ghost Army (Adapted version) ++
Dreadblade - General (Ruler of the Spirit Hosts), Midnight Tome - Spectral Tether
Lady O - Reaping Scythe
Kurdoss
Reik - Soul Cage
Spirit Torment
Spirit Torment (new)
10 x Rasps
10 x Rasps
10 x Grims
5 x Blades (new)
5 x Harridans (new)
5 x Blades
5 x Blades
4 x Myrmourn
4 x Myrmourn or 5 x Blades (new)
Penumbral Engine
Purple Sun (possibly swap out for pendulum, not sure tbh)
Shards
+1 CP or Geminids (new)
15 drops - 1970-1990pts - 7 underworlds deployment options

Ultimately this tweaked version would have been more lethal when it got into combat with stuff, as my blades pretty much did most of the work during the game. Grims were great but are too expensive now to be spamming them. Having 2 torments would make double the re-roll options and allow for one to potentially be a sacrificial utility to be launched into enemy lines along with some blades, but only having one in the army meant it was very important to keep it safe and protected. I'd change the harridans to 5 instead of 10. They don't do enough damage unless super buffed which is too much CP and without gravesites to heal/revive they don't work well enough imo. But 5 are still worth taking as a tool to use, for when you have a low bravery opponent, as they only need to be within 6" to be giving out -1 to hit for stuff bravery 6 or less. The myrmourns were great, as they allowed me to get some extra -2 rend attacks in, so it would either be another blob of them or more blades. I might swap purple sun, it's too spikey for what it does, but when it does work, wowzer. Also the additional -1 bravery was useful, as combined with the harridans it meant bravery 7 or less was -1 to hit. Geminids are so good, my game against gloomspite, the arachnarok had gryph-feather charm and it's own -1 to hit, plus I got tagged by geminids, so was at -2 or -3 to hit, so hitting on 6s re-rolling 1s with everything, it hurt so much, plus the d3 mortal are great to chip away at stuff. Overall the engine would on average give out 3-4 CP a game, so it sucks that your opponent can benefit as well, but it also gave at least 2 CP, so it did cover it's costs every game.

August 12, 2019

@Chris Tomlin Just wanted to say thanks again for putting on the event. I'm glad that I could actually make it this year, unlike last year when I had to bail out last minute. Will definitely be attending next year if life permits me, though might not take my fluffy ghost list next time, didn't do very well 😂.

I was wondering do you post the final results with all the TPs and kill points and sports votes and stuff at some point after the event? I came 79th and beat my friend by one place, just keen to know what it was that separated us in the end?

August 12, 2019

38 minutes ago, MrCharisma said:

I’ve got Legions of Nagash organised for 2 weeks time

Will the LoN be done as separate factions for the 6 armies in the book, or as a generic overall single focus?

August 12, 2019

So went to Blackout at the weekend, a 96 player 2k 2day event in UK. Took a fluffy ghost list. Got 1-4. Had 3 of my loses that were basically decided by a single dice roll.

Game 1 - Against Skaven, lost on objective points, but only just, not much I could have done to deal with the 3 x 40 plaguemonks and immunity from the bells. A close and very swingy game until start of turn 5.

Game 2 - Against Gloomspite, lost due to failing a single charge in turn 5. Had I made it I would have scored the objective and won by a 17-16, but lost 13-16.

Game 3 - Against Skaven, won this as it was relocation orb and the objective stayed on my side of the board for the entire game. Nothing the other player could have done to reach it, as I had blocked off his gnawholes.

Game 4 - Against Idoneth, lost due to priority roll on turn 2. They won and their 12 eels took out Kurdoss, Lady O, Reik and 4 myrmourns. Elsewhere I lost 10 rasps and 3 SHs to thralls. Start of my turn 2 I had less than 1k of models left on the board and he still had everything left. I almost managed to claw it back at the end, but they had 'commanding' terrain feature in their deployment and used the extra CP on 4 occasions to auto-immune the big block of eels from battleshock, which tied me up until turn 5 from being able to score enough points.

Game 5 - Nurgle with Skaven, lost again on the turn 2 priority roll. I had Lady O and Mr.K in combat with the screaming bell. Had I won I could have healed Lady O, killed the bell, and then kill enough of the 40 monks (who weren't in combat yet) to make them run from battleshock. But my opponent won the roll, and basically swamped the objectives, killing 600pts+ of models that turn.

Overall, 4 of the 5 games were really fun and very close, it was only the eels game was a bit of a ordeal, due to having nothing to counter or protect myself with. I had screened as best as I could, but when eels can run 20" and then get an 11"+3" on the charge there is not much you can do, and I even had all 3 of my big heroes sat on mystical terrain, so they had 4+/6++/6+++ saves, but not much you can do really when Mr.K takes 14 mortal wounds from their pre-combat mortal wound zaps 😢 and your dice decide to give up on you as well.

I scored all 5 of my hidden agendas and denied 3 of my opponents, which I was pleased with. The difference in the final standings between the armies 'that have' and the armies 'that don't have' was huge, with the top half being dominated by armies that could take part in the activation wars or had access to lots of summoning, etc... Overall I came 79th out of 96. I had lots of fun, drank a fair bit and would definitely go again if I can, though maybe not with ghosts, as the power creep in a year from now might be a bit unbearable unless they are the ones that get the benefits 😂.

Nighthaunt placed 71st, 79th, 92nd and 96th. Legion of Grief (not really NH but 🤷‍♀️) placed 24th and 94th. Not great that pure ghosts couldn't make it into the top half of the event and literally only just scraped into the top 3/4 but 🤷‍♀️. Overall Slaanesh did the best, with 3 in the top 5, 5 in the top 10, 7 in the top 30 and all 9 in the top 40. BoC and us ghosts did the worst.

A massive drop in the amount of players taking Death factions, chatting to a fair few players and lots of them have either sold their FEC armies or left them at home due to the grief they kept getting from opponents when they just put their models on the table before the game even began 😂, and only 1 Nagash for the whole event as well 😢. I think with the recent points changes nerfing all the LoN lists, and more new books coming out, I think Death will fall further and further down the tables at more events, certainly here in the UK. If the new Death book coming out later this year changes the warscrolls for basic stuff like skelebobs and other core units, then it might help, but if it just uses the same warscrolls (which is very well could do), it might be the death knell (😋) for non FEC Death armies going forward. As they currently don't need points changes, they need some serious updates to game mechanics to compete in stuff like the activation wars.

So below is some of the results for the event. The placings in the brackets are the highest and lowest placed in each faction for the event.

96 players overall - 31 with Order - 36 with Chaos - 15 with Death - 14 with Destruction

Order - Deepkin 9 (1st/91st) - SCE 7 (5th/72nd) - Sylvaneth 5 (18th/89th) - Kharadron 3 (29th/82nd) - Lizards 3 (56th/95th) - Mixed Order 3 (22nd/52nd) - Wanderers 1 (30th) - Fyreslayers 1 (13th) - No DoK at the event.

Chaos - Khorne 12 (12th/73rd) - Slaanesh 9 (2nd/40th) - Nurgle 6 (23rd/85th) - Skaventide 5 (27th/90th) - Tzeentch 3 (21st/90th) - BoC 1 (76th) - No StDs or Mixed Chaos at the event.

Death - FEC 6 (17th/87th) - Nighthaunt 4 (71st/96th) - Legion of Blood 2 (42nd/57th) - Legion of Grief 2 (24th/94th) - Grand Host 1 (20th) - No Legion of Sacrament or Legion of Night at the event.

Destruction - Gloomspite 6 (47th/91st) - Ironjaws 3 (7th/45th) - Bonesplitters 3 (19th/54h) - Mixed Destruction 1 (78th) - No BCR at the event.

August 12, 2019

@MrCharisma I'm assuming that there will be some Death based faction focuses as well? Seeing as fringe armies like free peoples are getting some attention, will we see stuff like a Soulblight faction focus or will LoN be a combo of all 6 of the Death armies in the book?

August 7, 2019

5 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

do units of Reapers need to have an Extoller of Shyish (bell ringer)?

Yes. It's the unit leader.

August 7, 2019

@JPjr it was included in the pack more as a way to gentle remind players to be nice. I'm not expecting people to coach their opponent on how to beat them, but it's stuff like in the deployment stage, if you place a unit within auto-charge range of a monster that you didn't know could charge 32" in a turn, etc...

Below is the word for word text on the CoC from the pack, aiming to make sure that players are as fair as they wish to be. Being given a detailed explanation at the very beginning of the game about what your opponent's army does, normally leads to the information going in one ear and straight out the other. So if players want to gentle remind their opponent, for example that their witches have a 6" pile in, then that creates a better play experience all round. It's only those top level tournament players that retain all of the info from all of the armies and even they struggle with it at times, so a gentle reminder is not a bad thing imo.

While Age of Sigmar is the most important thing in life, it’s also worth noting that nobody likes to have a negative play experience. So make sure that you are friendly with your opponent. There will be an active judge for this event, who will be on hand to make any final decisions should players be unable to come to an agreement amongst themselves, so please feel free to call upon the TO at any time that you feel you require their help or assistance.

In the spirit of the game we advise all players to be open and honest when explaining about your army to your opponent, and to make sure that this happens before the deployment stage of when a game is due to begin. While it is not complusory, if it looks as if your opponent is going to make a fundamental error during the deployment stage that will lead to an auto-lose type situation, we advise that you inform them of the potential error as soon as possible, so that both players can have a fair game.

And while it’s important to make sure that you D.B.A.D. whenever possible, please don’t refrain from doing victory dances, general wooping and cheering or other forms of expression should you and your dice manage to pull off an amazing feat of awesomeness that warrants a celebration.

August 7, 2019

I'm amazed at the 'long wait' argument. I can't remember the last game I played where I didn't touch any dice for 'hours' while my opponent did their double turn. It's a two player (or more sometimes) game. It requires interaction on both sides in order for it to work. The combat sequence is a prime example of the player how has to 'wait hours to do anything' having an active roll in determining how the outcome of their opponent's turn will turn out.

I was put off 40k due to the 1st turn power. As player one goes first and reduces the opposite army by say 10-15%. Player 2 then has 90-85% of their army to attack back with. They maybe do 5-10%. It generally carries on in this manner, so that by turn 3, the player going first has well over double the points of their opponent. The double turn in AoS shakes that guaranteed scenario from happening. Now does it always make for a fair fight, no, but it certainly provides more of an opportunity for a struggle force to counter their opponent and win the game, compared to a me go-you go-me go-you go game structure does.

The main issue that AoS currently has with 'long hours of waiting doing nothing but removing toys without even rolling dice, etc...' is that there are more and more auto-kill elements in the game. More and more units that offer literally zero player interaction. Units that do such a gross amount of damage or sheer weight of attacks (or sometimes both) that it offers literally zero counter. Now that isn't an issue of the double turn, that's an issue of balance within the game. Newer elements like the activation wars have created more 'long waits doing nothing' that the double turn ever has, due to the fact that the older game mechanic of alternate activations in combat has been effectively removed but only for certain factions and not others. How do you address this as an issue, I don;t honestly know.

Now timings are certainly a problem. Anyone who has played against an army like Tzeentch will know that they naturally have a heavy hero phase, which can be followed by a heavy movement phase, which can be followed by a heavy shooting phase and again followed by a heavy combat phase. In all of the tournaments that I've played, at both 1k and 2k level, my only games that have ever been timed out have been against Tzeentch. So whether I played those games in a alternating turn system or a double turn system, it doesn't change the fact that the time spent 'waiting around doing nothing' in a game. It's still the same amount of time that is spent waiting whether it's in a big chuck or several slightly less bigger chunks. Now again this isn't the fault of the double turn, it's the issue with the mechanics of the army, being that it has a lengthy hero, movement, shooting and combat phase.

Now the timing of players can be self policed a lot, I play hordes at times, so have my dice in bundles that don't have to always be individual counted out, I used movement trays to speed up movement, etc...there is a lot that players can do to improve their own play during games. And whether it's a double turn system or alternate activation system, slow play still leads to games getting timed out. I've had numerous 40k games at comps get timed out and in those games I've played for maybe 20-30% of the time allocated for that game. So would changing to an alternating turn system get rid of those 'long waits doing nothing'. definitely not, because a slow player is still a slow player regardless of the game mechanics.

It's really simple. At the end of the day, if both players know their warscrolls and know their spell lores (if they even have one), even at 2k a double turn shouldn't take more than 40-50mins max, and that double turn will still involve the 'non-active' player moving endless spells and engaging in combat and doing pile ins and rolling dice.

August 7, 2019

If you are using realm artefacts then you should really be using the other elements of the realms imo.

Realmscape features are very janky and potentially game breaking. If these are used then the TO should choose them rather than random roll.

Realm commands and spells equally need a small amount of self policing, as certain ones clearly make very good armies even better.

I'm running a one day event at the end of August, so will use what I'm doing for that as an example of what I want to see at comps.

I'm of the opinion that players should be made aware that realms are being used, but not told in advance. I've let players for my tournament know that realms will be used, but that the effects, commands and spells of the realms will be a limited and specially chosen selection. I've not announced what they are, but on the day of the comp, each player will be given a cheat sheet which has all of the relevant information on them for all of the potential realms that may be used. There are 3 games for the day and 4 potential realms to choose from, so that even by game 3 players won't know for certain which realm will be played.

I have also let players know that the missions for that day will be chosen from the GHB19 only, but haven't announced in advance which ones, these will be announced at the start of each battle. I have carefully chosen the missions, making sure that they offer the best chance for games to go the full 5 turns and prevent auto-wins taking place by turn 1 or 2.

I think if too much information is announced ahead of time, it allows players to create a specially tailored list to suit those particular circumstances. Whereas, if you let them know that certain effects and abilities will be taking place, but keep it secret, it forces players to make lists that are more well rounded to deal with any situation, which in turn creates a more interesting playing field for the players taking part.

Scenery rules should always be used and should be rolled by the players at the start of the game. I am providing players with scenery tokens and dice to use (and keep) for the event to help make this more seemless whilst in the set up stages of the games.

I've also allowed for 15mins of extra time at the start of each game, so that players can introduce themselves, chat over the armies, set up the scenery rules and do their deployment. If they finish this set up early, then they are free to start the games early. But I don't want players that may require longer for setting up due to the nature of their army, to be penalised with the amount of time they have for the actual game itself. Equally I don't want players with more elite armies to feel that it was down to their opponent taking too long to set everything up, that meant they could finish their game, etc...

For weekend tournaments painting should be mandatory, but for one day events, a more relaxed approach should be used imo. In the event I'm doing there are prizes for painting but it doesn't effect the tournament scores, as it offers an automatic advantage to some players before the event has even begun. Also for one day event, some players want to try out a new list or combo without fully committing to getting everything fully painted and based.

I'm including the use of secondaries but not the ones from the GHB19, the ones I include will be separate sub-missions, rather than 'you are already winning, so win some more' which is what most of the hidden agendas are unfortunately. The secondaries for my comp are going to be just as valuable in terms of tournament points as the main missions from GHB19, so that it allows armies that may struggle under normal conditions to have a fighting chance at scoring points. It's a lot of extra work as a TO to organise, but ultimately should lead to a more varied list in the final results, rather than the usual suspects taking the top positions. Of the secondaries that I'm using, 3 are secret and 3 are not. You can only use one per game, and you can't use the same one twice in the tournament. The non-secret missions will offer points to both players, depending on whether it is achieved or denied. Some of the secondaries are super easy and are lower scoring, others are difficult and offer lots of points. I'll be providing sheets with all 6 secondaries on for all the players, so if your opponent chooses a secret mission, you have a 1 in 3 chance of guessing what it might be and can attempt to thwart it happening.
Ultimately, the main thing that will be taking place is active judging. So I will be on hand (with all the rule books and access to FAQs, etc...) to make sure that any issues can be addressed in a timely manner. I will be going around all of the tables as each round progresses and making sure that the players are happy with how everything is going (obviously poor dice results can't be helped 😂.) But I think it's important that whoever is the TO is making an effort to either get an active judge on board or is doing it themselves, as it helps players to feel confident that they can get any issues addressed.

Lastly, I have included in the rules pack a mini code of conduct, because it's important that players not only respect each other, but if your opponent is about to make a grievous error of judgement with their decisions because they don't know what your army can do, it's expected that you gentle remind them that they might want to reconsider the certain death that they are about to put themselves in, because ultimately it leads to a better play experience for both players, rather than someone winning with a pure gotcha moment or due to your opponent being much less versed in the mechanics of your own army.

August 7, 2019

@Hannibal No worries. I have been playing ghosts pretty much solidly for nearly 2 years now, starting them a good few months before AoS 2.0 dropped. I love the army for all it's faults and issues and the models are stunning. If my many hours committed to games played and the failures that have come from those 😂 can be of use to other players I'm more than happy to help out.

If there is anything else that you want advice or opinions on just let me know, I'm normally lurking around this forum a fair bit 😂

August 7, 2019

On 8/6/2019 at 7:17 AM, Hannibal said:

What is the reasonbehind this?

As others have stated, you get more chances at WoT for one thing, but it has other benefits as well.

It's been nearly a year now since I started playing MSU lists and it's taken almost as long to master it (or partly master it 😂). The biggest advantage imo is that it forces your opponent to split their focus. So much brutal insta-kill has developed in the game that even a 30 blob of grims with a 4+ ethereal, a 6+ death save and if your lucky a 6+ mystical terrain save, isn't enough to withstand the damage output of a lot of units in the game. Lots of these gross units rely on synergies and buffs to make them gross, so if they are forced to split their attacks or their target unit is too small that the whole unit can't get in range to attack then it's a waste of resources for your opponent.

Another advantage is that you will almost naturally find that your units are 'wholly within' the ranges of your own heroes without needing to try, due to having a smaller footprint on the board, making getting those extra attacks and buffs much easier and less reliant on exact and perfect positioning movements being made.

Screening and sacrificial units also works wonders with MSU units. Need to hold on objective to score but don't want to jeopardise your main force or heroes, then leave your 80pt unit of expendable rasps to outnumber your opponent.

Or if you want you can use a small unit of SHs to tarpit a large charging monster, like a GKoTG, and place a unit within 3" of those SHs. The monster can't pile in to your guys at the back due to the size if it's base, meaning that if they kill the SHs or after the SHs have made their own pile in move, your 2nd unit can now attack the big gribbly monster, which should have expended all of it's attacks for that turn beforehand.

And as others have mentioned, having a super high drop list gives you more options to drop more units on the board. I normally run 12-16 drop lists, giving me 6-8 underworlds placements. It gives a huge psychological advantage when your opponent can't get to most of your army in the first few turns and knows that you still have loads of units to bring into play.

MSU and horde style of play are still both valid but currently in the competitive meta MSU is providing more successful results due to the fact that so many units in the game now can auto-delete anything they come into contact with, and losing a big blob of 30 grims is worse than losing 10 grims whilst your other 2 units of 10 grims are still kicking it about on the board. It may swing back to hordes, but due to when our book came out and the reluctance of changing warscrolls, we as an army lack any of the current 'must have' tools, such as reliable summoning, reliable healing, reliable participation in the activation wars, etc....so we have to make do with whatever we can.

August 6, 2019

28 minutes ago, ChrisMack26 said:

not spending £25 for 10

Ebay and selling sites are your friend here. There are still people selling the NH halves of Soul Wars. I have so many heroes from getting Soul Wars halves, because £40 for 20 is better than £50 for 20, plus you can then sell the other heroes. But seriously eBAY is your answer, normally get 10 for £15

August 2, 2019

@dmorley21 all chainrasp army would be awful but would be amusing to play for one game

August 2, 2019

@dmorley21I have considered a pure chainrasp army.

Lady O (general for fluff reasons)

GoS with +1 to cast relic

Spirit Torment

19 x 10 rasps

2000pts - 22 drops - 11 underworlds deployments - 207 wounds

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Posts posted by Tropical Ghost General