Pink/Blue horrors and Brimstones compulsory reinforcement points?

[Soup Dragon]

So I was looking at the 'split' ability on Blue horrors and Brimstones. The wording is "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualties during a hero, shooting or combat phase, the slain Horrors WILL split and create Blue Horrors at the end of that phase". The key word here is WILL. Not may, or can, but will. So they must split into the relevant horrors? If this is the case, then if you take 10 Pink horrors you must have enough reinforcement points for 20 Blue, and 40 Brimstones, otherwise you cannot fulfil the rules on the warscroll.

The only 'can' in the warscroll ability is if the entire unit is wiped out. If it takes casualties without being wiped out then there is no choice but to split, and because there may be no partial unit to reinforce then you have to have the reinforcement points to set them up as a new unit - as it says on the warscroll.

This interpetation feels a bit draconian, but I've sliced and diced the words and it seems to be RAW. What does everyone else think? 

[BaldoBeardo]

So what happens when you run out of points to summon horrors?
Not disagreeing with your assessment of the wording, but in effect it is even worse than that based on summoning rules - because it is at the end of that phase. So it's not twenty blue, it's enough points for one minimum unit of blue every phase...

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[Grimnaud]

I agree with the interpretation that you can't choose to split. There are however some constraints here. First, you can run out of models. That's a pretty reasonable point to stop splitting. Second, in matched play, they rules on the war scroll are overridden by the rules in the GHB. That's when the points come in. So if you have no reinforcement points, you can't create new units of blue/brimstone horrors. Yes, the war scroll tells you to, but that would break the rules for matched play, so you can't.

Unfortunately this creates a new issues, specifically a units starting size. If two pink horrors die, and you have the points for blue, then you have to create a new unit of four blue. But now that can be argued to be that new units starting size (Not saying that I will, but it can be). You can't exceed the starting size, but at the same time the minimum amount you can pay points for are ten. So that's six blue horrors just lost to you. And since there are still at least  eight pink horrors left in the original unit, something like that can happen three times a turn (hero, shooting, and combat).

I would check with a TO on how they would resolve the split rule before bringing horrors and reinforcement points in a Tzeentch tournament list.

[Nico]

I ruled that it was discretionary at London's Calling in our FAQ. This was on the basis of the General's Handbook - the use of reinforcement pool being inherently discretionary. I agree that the wording of the scrolls does look mandatory e.g. in narrative play.

It would be very bad for DoT if Split was mandatory. Pink Horrors would be unusable in lists with reinforcement points. 

I also ruled that you get what you pay for, so if you spent 50 reinforcement points after 2 Pink Horrors died in a phase, then you could deploy 4 Blues, but could then top that unit up to 10 models when Pinks died in the combat phase (but emphatically not more). Otherwise the topping up mechanic is basically useless and there's also an administrative headache of keeping track of the initial size of each unit of Blues and Brimstones.

 

[arnoldrew]

On 5/3/2017 at 9:40 PM, BaldoBeardo said:

So what happens when you run out of points to summon horrors?
Not disagreeing with your assessment of the wording, but in effect it is even worse than that based on summoning rules - because it is at the end of that phase. So it's not twenty blue, it's enough points for one minimum unit of blue every phase...

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You can't summon them if you don't have the points available. That's pretty clear.

[BaldoBeardo]

You can't summon them if you don't have the points available. That's pretty clear.

That was my point...? Discussion is on the horror ability being worded in a compulsory fashion.

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[Vaz84]

I have played a few games with Blues and Pinks being bought in advance, but guaranteed to drop out of the pink unit. The blue's and brimstones go into my army list, and not my summoning pool. We found this worked and kept the spirit of the lore/rules alive. It would not fly at a tourney likely, but it ensures a horror player gets full use of their unit. Rather than a clever general just sniping 1 pink, then the resulting blues and thus wiping out 50 points with 2 wounds.

[Tasman]

On 5/6/2017 at 1:06 PM, BaldoBeardo said:

That was my point...? Discussion is on the horror ability being worded in a compulsory fashion.

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I don't know if it's correct, or RAI, but I simply put them out as they (pics) get taken off. Therefore, it's absolutely possible to have a large conglomeration

of pinks, blues, and brimstone horrors. All paid for with points, of course. I understand the original question here, but for me this just seems to be the logical approach. If 2 pinks die and are removed in the shooting phase for example, they are replaced with blues, and the blues with brimstones etc.

What's more cloudy for me though, is what about when all is done and we move to battleshock?

There is the potential to bring back D6 pinks. Technically, they've already been replaced. With blues. Then there's fold reality,  same thing applies here.

Any thoughts on this?

 

 

[KnightFire]

10 minutes ago, Tasman said:

 

What's more cloudy for me though, is what about when all is done and we move to battleshock?

There is the potential to bring back D6 pinks. Technically, they've already been replaced. With blues. Then there's fold reality,  same thing applies here.

Any thoughts on this?

 

 

The returning pinks and fold reality apply whether or not you have paid reinforcements for blues or brimstones, so the splitting has no impact on it. The blues/brimstones are a new unit that has been purchased via reinforcement points, it appeared on the board via the split mechanic, but its no different to if you had summoned a unit of pinks with summoning points, with regards to how much they affect the original unit.

[Tasman]

Just now, KnightFire said:

The returning pinks and fold reality apply whether or not you have paid reinforcements for blues or brimstones, so the splitting has no impact on it. The blues/brimstones are a new unit that has been purchased via reinforcement points, it appeared on the board via the split mechanic, but its no different to if you had summoned a unit of pinks with summoning points, with regards to how much they affect the original unit.

This is how I've played it. I replace individual pinks (and blues, as warranted) and then use destiny dice to add d6 to the pinks. Fold reality is more useful for keeping those sky fires around.

[BaldoBeardo]

RAW though, each splitting has to either reinforce a unit up to max original size, or form a new unit. Which you have to pay for at minimum strength.

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[KnightFire]

Yes, you lose 2 pinks, so create a unit of 4 blues, paying for it out of reinforcement points. Then next combat phase you lose another 2 pinks, so add 4 more blues to the unit of blues, not paying any more reinforcement points (because your topping up an existing unit). 

The real question then is - if you dont create more than 10 blues in the first combat phase (when you create the unit) - can you ever grow it above 10, or do you need to make a second unit with the 11th model.

[BaldoBeardo]

No, that's not right. You can only.reinforce a unit up to original size.
The unit was 4 when it was deployed. You may have paid for 10, but it's still a unit of 4.
So you have to pay for the next 4 and 2.5x the points as well.

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[Nico]

Quote

The real question then is - if you dont create more than 10 blues in the first combat phase (when you create the unit) - can you ever grow it above 10, or do you need to make a second unit with the 11th model.

Again this is something I covered with my FAQ for London's Calling.

As soon as a Pink died, you could choose to pay either 50 for a unit of up to 10 Blues or 100 for a unit of up to 20 Blues. It was your risk that the unit never got topped up that far before it was killed. It doesn't seem reasonable that you could decide to spend another 50 when you're about to hit 10 models - the unit should have a maximum unit size from the outset, whether 10, 20 or theoretically 30.

 

[Squirrelmaster]

The matched play rules modify the core rules, and state that if you don't have enough points, you can choose to summon a smaller unit, or not summon one at all. That overwrites the warscroll rules, and means that you don't have to set aside points if you don't want to.

Now, by strict RAW I'd say that if you do have enough points and models, you do have to summon the unit. I wouldn't expect anyone to play that way, though.

If you have the points, but not the models, I think you can reasonably argue that the rule wouldn't summon more models than you have, so you wouldn't have to pay for them.

Reinforcing an existing unit cannot go above what they started the battle with — I'd say by RAW, that's however many you summoned. So if you only summoned 4 to begin with, that unit can never go above 4. If you want to house-rule it otherwise, that's up to you, but I can't see any rules-basis for using minimum unit sizes or anything else.

It wouldn't be the first ability to be rendered near-useless by the matched play summoning rules.

[Thomas Lyons]

Lets be clear about something, even beyond the Matched play rules, there is nothing inherently on the war scroll that prohibits you from fielding the Pink Horrors if you haven't set aside the reinforcement points.  You can certainly include them in the list but if you don't have the reinforcement points, the splitting result cannot be realized so it is not fulfilled.  For example, this is like saying you cannot field Nefrata unless you absolutely set aside points to place Vampire Lords...and if you don't set aside the appropriate number (which could be 600+ depending what size game), then you can't field her.  This is nonsensical.  

There is nothing that says they can't be included in the list if points aren't set aside.  If the result of an ability can't be realized then it just doesn't happen (for whatever variety of reasons).