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[Grimma]

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[aquietfrog]

If you maintain that RAW you can place your prosecutors on top of other models during the charge/combat phase, just understand that other flying models should also be allowed to be on top of yours. If you geniunely feel fine about that, make sure the person you are playing with is also fine with it as they might not feel the same way.  Honestly, it's only complicated because you insist on the vertical placement.  If you can do it without damaging someone else's property, then do it. Otherwise, it's honestly not worth the trouble fighting for it as there's nothing much to gain from having it above the mob.

[Grimma]

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[Grimma]

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[BURF1]

On 4/11/2017 at 11:30 AM, Grimma said:

Thanks - the issue that's in play is whether an orc mob can be strategically placed to completely deny huge amounts of the board to the prosecutors, shielding other units from their ranged weapons. Placing each model almost an inch from their neighbor in a matrix that if you use base-base rules makes it impossible for the Prosecutors to land in or cross. Visually and thematically, and RAW, there doesn't seem any reason why they could not land in the middle of the mob, especially insincere they will not be touching the models, only overlapping base edges.

The RAW in the FAQ seem very clear that bases can overlap, no? 

Stop playing measuring model to model. Just stop. The world will be a much better place when the last holdout 10% of the community finally lets that stupid system die. For the record if anyone were to ever try to hover prosecutors over my models, I'd start building stardrakes out of lead.

[Grimma]

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[Spinsane]

17 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

It doesn't say anything about the base in that FAQ, and in fact the rules as written act as if the base is not there and say you technically don't need bases at all.

Ugh, you're right... Guess I'm too used to thinking of the base as integralto the model.

+Edit: Previous post has been edited...

[arnoldrew]

3 hours ago, Spinsane said:

As I pointed out, there's a FAQ question later on in the very same document that says you CAN'T move over another model's base unless you have flying... Thank you GW for your consistency..

It doesn't say anything about the base in that FAQ, and in fact the rules as written act as if the base is not there and say you technically don't need bases at all.

[aquietfrog]

Yes, RAW you can put it the middle of the mob if you manage to do so, keeping them in 1 inch model to model coherency. Looks pretty cinematic, I think. You can even put them on tiny bases as bases dont matter RAW if you want to avoid overlapping bases.  

However, I must point out that if your aim is to land them in the midst of the ork mob during your charge phase in order to retreat them further ahead in your next movement phase, or shoot at something behind the mob in its next shooting phase, it would have to survive the mob first as most of them can probably pile in on your prosecutors during that turn they are in combat.

BTW, I don't think spacing out your orks for board control is abuse of base rules. Flying units landing in  middle of a unit by overlapping bases, is closer to abuse.  That said, unless the said flying unit is a really tough combat oriented unit, then I think that's a poor tactical decision.  Prosecutors don't do well against mobs, might stand a chance if it had a grandaxe.

 

[Spinsane]

3 hours ago, rokapoke said:

Actually, page 1 of the FAQ (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/warhammer_aos_rules_en.pdf) specifically refers to "bases getting damaged as they are stacked on top of each other" (first page, the question that starts at the bottom of the first column). So yes, rules as written (and FAQ'd) allow base stacking, and therefore Prosecutors landing on Orc bases in this situation.

/Sigh. I wish they were more consistent... I know the whole point of ignoring bases was so they could argue "bases are no longer important in AoS, you don't have to rebase your WHFB armies at all!" but stacking bases is not how they play; hell, Warhammer TV's own tutorial regarding Piling-in (don't bother arguing it's unofficial, please) highlights you can't get any closer than B2B.

As I pointed out, there's a FAQ question later on in the very same document that says you CAN'T move over another model's base unless you have flying... Thank you GW for your consistency...

I guess when I next/first go to a tournament I'll for sure ask an official ruling on this before any model or dice touches a table!

[rokapoke]

4 minutes ago, Spinsane said:

Please re-read it. It doesn't.

The FAQ says you can move over other modelz, not land.

Actually, page 1 of the FAQ (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/warhammer_aos_rules_en.pdf) specifically refers to "bases getting damaged as they are stacked on top of each other" (first page, the question that starts at the bottom of the first column). So yes, rules as written (and FAQ'd) allow base stacking, and therefore Prosecutors landing on Orc bases in this situation.

[Spinsane]

40 minutes ago, Grimma said:

The RAW in the FAQ seem very clear that bases can overlap, no? 

Please re-read it. It doesn't.

The FAQ says you can move over other models, not land/finish a move.

[Grimma]

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[rokapoke]

27 minutes ago, Grimma said:

Thanks - the issue that's in play is whether an orc mob can be strategically placed to completely deny huge amounts of the board to the prosecutors, shielding other units from their ranged weapons. Placing each model almost an inch from their neighbor in a matrix that if you use base-base rules makes it impossible for the Prosecutors to land in or cross. Visually and thematically, and RAW, there doesn't seem any reason why they could not land in the middle of the mob, especially insincere they will not be touching the models, only overlapping base edges.

The RAW in the FAQ seem very clear that bases can overlap, no? 

If you're measuring model-to-model as in the rules, yes, base overlap is permitted. However, be aware that a lot of people will be rather angry if you place something on a delicately-built base. 

Most people (in my personal experience) play base-to-base instead of model-to-model, so overlapping is actively discouraged. Your mileage may vary.

[Grimma]

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[Grimma]

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[Turragor]

all movement must be outside 3" of enemy models at the start and end of the movement phase so you don't need to worry about if they are 'landing' or not, balancing, model measurement v base measurement or anything like that.

You gotta be outside 3 unless in combat.

If you want to get creative you could RAW suspend them from strings above the enemy as long as the entire model is over 3 inches above the highest point of  the enemy unit.

It's not hovering over the unit though it's more just staying 3" away on a different axis. It's also not a practical way to tabletop until we get 3D space hologram games!

[Aggesut]

2 hours ago, Spinsane said:

Each model has a base. Their base must be able to fit on the board or terrain...

+ Edit: While not strictly spelled out in the rules, a model cannot step onto another's base*, although it is allowed, if it can Fly, to move over/through/across it. We also know that a model in base to base cannot pile-in because "it is impossible for the model to move towards, since any moement does not reduce the distance between the two," which confirms that the closest two models can be is base to base, making it impossible/illegal for a model to move onto another's base (except where the Flying cause allow it).

 

 

2nd this. Bases are arbitrary in AoS, however, you are not permitted to end your movement on another model's base. Fun fact; this is somewhat the only time bases actually matters.

[aquietfrog]

If you want your prosecutors to 'hover' above an orruk mob, then you also gotta let his mawkrusha 'hover' over your prosecutors. Seems fair enough.

[Spinsane]

Each model has a base. Their base must be able to fit on the board or terrain...

+ Edit: While not strictly spelled out in the rules, a model cannot step onto another's base*, although it is allowed, if it can Fly, to move over/through/across it. We also know that a model in base to base cannot pile-in because "it is impossible for the model to move towards, since any moement does not reduce the distance between the two," which confirms that the closest two models can be is base to base, making it impossible/illegal for a model to move onto another's base (except where the Flying cause allow it).

* See the following FAQ answer:

Q: Are you allowed to move a unit through another friendly unit that is not engaged in combat?

A: Models can move through the gaps between the models in another unit (if they can fit), but are not allowed to move over other models unless they can fly

[Grimma]

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[Spinsane]

Flying is just a rule that affects movement of the models; they remain standard models for all other purposes. As such, they must be physically present on the tavle, maintain unit coherency and all... The fact that they fly dorsn't change anything other than their ability to pass through barriers and models.

[Grimma]

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[arnoldrew]

4 minutes ago, Grimma said:

OK - so what's the rule about how much space they need? Can they just kind of balance in the mob? I know a lot of tournaments use base-base and no-overlap rules, so I guess that would be how much space they needed in that scenario, but what about RAW? Thanks! I really appreciate you talking me through this - I'm genuinely confused by how flying units work!

I guess there's no reason why you couldn't just set them on top of your opponent's models. Measuring from models is such a shitshow.

[Grimma]

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[rokapoke]

6 minutes ago, Grimma said:

My confusion is that they don't land - right - they able to traverse terrain that they could not land on right?

During their movement, including during a charge, they can fly over anything. At the end of a move/run/charge/pile-in, the model must be returned to the table. Unless it lands instead on terrain.