Have skaven fallen off?!

[Flood]

Hello all!

So what is your opinion? I was scrolling through the recent adepticon 2017 coverage and was noticing difficulty finding a single mention or picture of skaven. I dont think I found a single picture or list of the rats! It got me thinking, have the sneaky backstabbers fallen off from popularity? Are they just no good against other factions nowadays? I know it,s popular to mix in a warp lightning cannon or stormfiends in a mixed chaos list here and there, but it doesn't seem many people take an army of majority skaven. 

I have a fairly large (4k?) Skaven collection and im almost considering shelving them to start an ironjawz or stormcast list. Maybe others had the same feelings I'm having and did just that? 

What's your opinion guys? Has anyone here shelved their skaven? Why they dwindling popularity compared to fantasy in days of old?

[Double Misfire]

GW discontinued Scorched Brown spray.

[Flood]

Lol! Well for aos you dont necessarily NEED a bunch of clan rats. Good thing I already painted 120 of the little suckers during 8th edition, although I rarely ever field them all haha. (Note: I did not use scorched brown spray! I base coated them all! Yaaa... took a while.)

[Motski]

They're getting a new release this year according to some recent rumours I read.

[ARougishType]

I'm new to Age of Sigmar and tabletop in general so take this all with a grain of salt. I just got into AoS after learning how cool some of the races from fantasy were via Total War: Warhammer. I fell in love with Tomb Kings and Skaven and picked up the Spire of Dawn set to start my Skaven army in the past few months. What I've noticed as a new player trying to get into Skaven is it seems you have to either go Verminous Clawpack or Clan Skryre for competitive lists.

The problem with the Verminous Clawpack is it's been a pain in the butt to deal with the 40 clanrats that I got with the box set. Painting-wise it's been daunting to see how many more I have to paint. Game-wise, I've played a few games at my local GW store with some super friendly people but moving even just 40 clan rats is a pain and some opponents are patient but you can tell they aren't used to opponents taking that long to move. I  mainly see destruction armies at my store, so low model count, big models, some Slyvaneth and Nurgle. No one else has a horde army. I really don't want to have to deal with 80-120 clanrats as much as I love the Skaven.

With Clan Skryre, my issue is the cheesiness of Stormfiend/Warpfire spam, especially playing the same people usually every weekend. It also seems that will get nerfed with the GHB2. I love Skryre but don't want to be "that guy" at my local store.

These are just my issues I've seen with Skaven as they stand in AoS right now as a new player. I still love their fluff and look forward to new releases but want to start a Tzeentch arcanite army really badly for now. I like the look a lot and enjoy the armies that seem to be full of tricks.  

[VBS]

I suppose the lack of X or Y faction is about priority. Most "classic" warhammer armies are left out as there is a preference to bring in the new stuff, new setting, etc... I have no doubt Skaven will have their update (after all, the Horned Rat became much more prominent in AoS, or so they say). Hopefully all the other old factions will benefit from this at some point, they really need some love (at least my woodies do ).

[Killax]

On 1-4-2017 at 3:44 AM, Flood said:

It got me thinking, have the sneaky backstabbers fallen off from popularity?

Are they just no good against other factions nowadays? 

I have a fairly large (4k?) Skaven collection and im almost considering shelving them to start an ironjawz or stormcast list. Maybe others had the same feelings I'm having and did just that? 

What's your opinion guys?

Has anyone here shelved their skaven?

Why they dwindling popularity compared to fantasy in days of old?

I think they indeed became a little less popular, granted most factions do who arn't of "AoS design" what I mean by the latter is that units of Dark Elves, High Elves and Lizardmen or Empire are also a rarity to me. If it wasn't for TK having good competative designs, they would also more quickly dissapear. Which isn't to say Skaven don't have that, but what you see with competative Skaven is often mixed with Chaos Mortals. 

Skaven are good, but as mentioned it depends on the competative intend.

I do believe that many hardcore Skaven players don't really like that they are part of Chaos or better put have become more of a sub-faction instead of full factions. Though that's just my assumption. 

Skaven are great with Chaos blends. Flying rats with Sayl can put out the hurt. Gattling gun hands do the same

I know a few who have shelved their Skaven, again because of the same reasons as to why multiple WFB armies have been shelved, they arn't all that AoS-y.

Populairity of factions on the competative scene largely depends on the competative design of such factions. Sad as that might sound, it also applies for Age of Sigmar. All you (we) can really hope for is that GW will focus on the other factions next. It's wonderful to see Order and Chaos get all the attention but I'm sure GW understands that Destruction and Death would like some love at this point aswell. This likely does mean that Skaven still have to wait but if your willing to blend with Chaos Warriors you can really have a powerful Skaven-heavy build.

[Deathmaster Snikch]

I don't agree with Skaven not being competitive at all. I've written a few lists and there's a lot of nasty stuff you can do with Skaven that goes under the radar. They do have some checks but they also have some very good combinations 

For a start you can make a very nasty Skryre list around Jezzails without taking the gautfyre scorch- just throwing out it isn't the only option

Secondly I run a mostly Clan Eshin army and it's fair to say they are highly competitive 

I run a Verminlord Deceiver, Deathmaster Snikch, a big unit of 30 Nightrunners and 2 units of 10 Gutter Runners. My battleline is just 3 units of 10 Clanrats so it's hardly a horde, the only big unit I run is the Nightrunners. Skitterleap is a very powerful spell. Lord of war and the Deceivers command traits makes Gutter Runners very strong in combat. The night runners are a more recent addition to my list and with the slinking advance move, knowing since I don't run formations I will likely go first I can score on enemy objectives turn 1 or completely obstruct while acolytes and stormfiends move behind unopposed. I played border war recently and didn't even charge, I just ran more nightrunners within 6 than my opponent had and scored 9 turn 1

[Dez]

Some really interesting technique there, @Deathmaster Snikch. That's how I use my Clan rats, too. 

I love Skaven. I've been running them mainly, and doing really well to the point they are referred to as 'cheaty Skaven'. No I'm not cheating, I just know how to use them

The more I've played them, the more I've realized having more Clan Rats and running the horde is the way to do it. The Verminous Clawpack all but removes any Bravery issues, as well as stacking multiple Crowns of Conquest onto heroes that are NOT your general so you can pass around Immune to Battleshock/Gnash-Gnaw on their Bones. In addition to Tretch's command ability, you can turn mundane Clan Rats into murder machines. Then you take 30 Stormvermin

Ratling Guns and Warplightning Cannons will reach out and kill heroes. 

I hate that I have to avoid the Hellpit Abomination and Doomwheel in competitive play. They are awesome models...but their warscrolls are so bad.

[Oldmanlee]

So can skaven be run well with out going pure skryre as that would bore me 

[Dez]

They sure can!

[Goodapollo4]

This topic plus a game with a veteran Skaven player last night have really got me thinking about the Verminus list for the first time. There is something super appealing to me about a wave of murderous rats swarming over the field. The Verminus list I'm writing right now has 137 models though...ouch. 

[Dez]

If you are playing for scenarios (also known as competitively haha) the Verminus Clawpack backed up by long range firepower is the way to go. I like at least one unit of 40 Clan Rats and a unit of 30 Stormvermin.

[Taketheskull]

Why do you need to shelve the army?

Play Skaven sometimes, play Ironjawz/Stormcast the other times. If you play regular opponents they will appreciate you mixing it up.

[Flood]

Sorry for the late response everyone, Just been so busy with school. 

On 4/1/2017 at 6:42 PM, VBS said:

I suppose the lack of X or Y faction is about priority. Most "classic" warhammer armies are left out as there is a preference to bring in the new stuff, new setting, etc... I have no doubt Skaven will have their update (after all, the Horned Rat became much more prominent in AoS, or so they say). Hopefully all the other old factions will benefit from this at some point, they really need some love (at least my woodies do ).

I was thinking the same thing. I thought maybe because of the release of a faction like Ironjawz, people just have the urge to use them, just because their new. The models do look great, which would draw people. But as I mentioned, that Adepticon 2017 coverage didn't have ANY Skaven. It was just alarming. 

I recently listened to an episode on Ben Curry's Baddice podcast (I think it was baddice?) and his guest outlined a pretty awesome Verminus Skaven army. He used the classic Tretch Craventail and Skaven warlod combo, along with a compendium battle standard bearer. But he also talked about brining in a plague priest with this list to use the +1 to wound. That would mean stormvermin hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, with 3 attacks each, and -2 rend, 5s doing double damage, and the BSB providing reroll 1s to hit! That sounds pretty nasty to me, and I really want to try it with the plague priest and BSB. With stuff like this hanging around, I'm just surprised we don't see more of the rats and wanted to hear form the community. I tried to find the episode to link it for you guys, but I just cant remember where I found it!

With that said, I noticed the recent sheffield slaughter 2017 was full of Skaven lists, so maybe it's just random...

http://baddice.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/sheffield_slaughter_2017_lists.pdf

14 hours ago, Taketheskull said:

Why do you need to shelve the army?

Play Skaven sometimes, play Ironjawz/Stormcast the other times. If you play regular opponents they will appreciate you mixing it up.

Well that's why I don't just sell them all outright. I love my army and wouldn't want to get rid of them. I just don't really get in enough games or have enough time to think about 2 armies. If I start something new, I'll probably put most my focus onto them and the Skaven will end up getting put on the shelf. Not sure I'll do that anyway, just something I'm thinking about. Ironjawz look fun! 

14 hours ago, Dez said:

If you are playing for scenarios (also known as competitively haha) the Verminus Clawpack backed up by long range firepower is the way to go. I like at least one unit of 40 Clan Rats and a unit of 30 Stormvermin.

How do you find enough points for long range firepower??! I tend to find with verminus clawpack I fill up points in stuff I feel I really need and don't have enough for Warp Lightning Cannons/Plague Claw Catapults. 

[Oldmanlee]

So the clawpack it is 

also is the bell worth taking at all? 

[Dez]

@Flood My list from last Saturday's tournament:

My list from Saturday's Tournament:

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Arch Warlock (140)
- General
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Packmaster Skweel Gnawtooth (100)
- General
Tretch Craventail (100)
- General
Skaven Warlord (100)
- General
- Warpforged Blade
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest

Battleline
40 Clan Rats with Spears/Full Command

10 Clan Rats with Swords/Full Command

10 Clan Rats with Swords/Full Command

30 Stormvermin Shields/Full Command

Warpfire Thrower

Ratling Gun

Ratling Gun

War Machines
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
- General

Battalions
Verminus Clawpack (80)

Total: 2000/2000

 

5 hours ago, Oldmanlee said:

So the clawpack it is 

also is the bell worth taking at all? 

I think it's great in normal games, but I'd rather take things like an WLC if I'm going to tournaments.

[Iain]

Ha I've been planning to do after my stormcast - this was the list I came up with based on spire of dawn + models I like. Is this in any way good?

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Thanquol and Boneripper (500)
- Warpfire Projectors
Skaven Warlord (100)
- Warpforged Blade
Warlock Engineer (100)
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Blade

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (240)
- Rusty Spear
3 x Stormfiends (300)
10 x Clanrats (60)
- Rusty Spear
10 x Clanrats (60)
- Rusty Spear

Units
2 x Rat Ogors (120)
1 x Poisoned Wind Mortar Weapon Team(60)
1 x Warpfire Thrower Weapon Team (60)
3 x Warplock Jezzails (140)

War Machines
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Total: 1980/2000
 

[Dez]

I think you could have a great game with that list. At some time in the future, you could think about swapping out some things (packmaster, Rat Ogres, PWM) to bulk out some bodies in the Clan Rats. The Verminus Clawpack is a really good base line to shoot for.

[Iain]

@dez yeah those 10 rat squads aren't going to live long... that's a shame because I love the models for rat ogors. Are they useless without the packmaster?

[Dez]

Those units of 10 Clan Rats can live, as long as you are presenting different threats or hiding them well (which of course depends on terrain). I often bring units of 10, they are good for holding back on objectives or bubble wrap for heroes.

The only trouble with a Packmaster is the 3 wounds and terrible save. This hurts when it comes to 3 Places of Power. Packmasters do bump up the Rat Ogres significantly, though I hope in the future they either bump up it's survivability or tone down the points and allow them to be taken as a unit. I take a unit of 6 Rat Oogres with Skweel Gnawtooth sometimes, and it's flank and destroyed!

[Iain]

@dez wow 3 wounds - I never even noticed that. Definitely badly pointed (e.g. vs bloodstoker = 80pts). skweel definitely seems like better value at 100pts though. Maybe will be rethought in future GH / skaven battletome

[Dez]

I meant I flank and destroy with the unit of 6 Rat Ogres

Yeah I still do a double take at the rotten survivability of the Packmaster vs Points.

[Flood]

@Dez

So you don't think a second unit of 30- 40 clanrat would be better than the WRC? I mean if you think about it, that wlc will only be putting out about 3- 4 wounds per turn on average. I love the wlc and even the pcc, but I have trouble justifying it over a 2nd big clanrat unit. I mean we are investing these points for the clawpack, bringing in weapons teams we probably wouldn't otherwise bring, as well as the 80 pts for the batallions. It seems as if though we should capitalize on that investment with as many clan rats and stormvermin as possible.  

I understand the importance of reaching out to target important hero's, but it seems like shooting another large unit of rats with sayl would be more powerful. 

Also, I see a lot od people bringing packmaster skweel with verminus clawpack. Can you explain why that is? I mean with no moulder units I cannot see his use. There must be some trick I'm missing as many do it. 

[Dez]

The Stormfiends are a Moulder unit, and they get a decent boost via Skweel and all his abilities.

Mortal Wounds and range are very powerful. in conjunction with Ratling Guns, I drop a hero or two a turn which can ruin other armies synergy. I can see the value in bumping up another unit of Clan rats too though, I've found the board control to be a great advantage.