A Very Honest Battle Report

[Fungrim]

Hello folks.

Just wanted to throw up this battle report on here. Not one I’m proud of for obvious reasons! I actually had two very good, enjoyable games, but in terms of results... I had a bad day at the office. Played 2 games (3pop, Take & Hold) this past weekend. 2000 points, and used the following Ironajwz list:

 

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Bellowing Tyrant
- Artefact: Talisman of Protection
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Battle Brew
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
20 x Orruk Ardboys (360)
- 10x Pair of Choppas or Smashas
- 10x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Jagged Gore Hackas
- 2x Gore Choppa
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppa
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppa
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (180)
- Pig Iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (180)
- Pig Iron Choppas

Battalions
Ironfist (60)

Total: 2000/2000

 

Happily admit I’m still finding my feet with the Ironjawz. Only played 3 games prior to this (lost 2, won 1). There’s obvious pros and cons with the above list, so figured I’d give it a whirl and see what happens.

Played Death in the first game, and got caught on two fronts trying to fight off a zombie dragon on each. Kept taking off decent amounts of wounds, but as you can imagine, there was a lot of regeneration going on. Sadly, although I’d managed to ping off several Horrors and a few ghouls, by the end of the game, I’d not only lost to a Major, I’d also not managed to kill a single full unit…..!

Few reasons why - I didn’t set up particularly well, and I (wrongly) took first turn as it was 3pop. I decided to rush forward as much as possible to try and cover the middle ground and start claiming whilst blocking them out. Sadly I didn’t get as far forward as I needed to (despite Ironfist and Rampaging Destroyers), so come the Death turn 1, he pushed forward and blocked me out. He then got the double turn, which was enough for his units to get exactly where they wanted to be and just start grinding me out. The VL on Zombie Dragon had Red Fury, which meant he was taking out batches of 5 Brutes and Megabosses in single phases. Meanwhile the Ghoul on ZD plus a large unit of Horrors was more than enough to overwhelm my 10-man Brute unit before they could do anything back.

Really misplayed this one – but also really hammered home the point that the 2 units of Gruntas and that extra 10 Ardboyz wasn’t doing enough for me on the board. As much as I loved fielding the triplets (megabosses), it’s a gimmick I probably won’t be repeating…

 

2^nd game of the day was Take & Hold vs Stormcast Eternals. Lots of Fulminators, Judicators and multiple Heraldors. Special formation that lets them bubble up with various effects, not least the Heraldors dishing out mortal wounds from terrain pieces…!!

My hesitancy was my downfall here. I started drip-feeding forward units in hope of picking off the dangerous bits – I should have done what I did in the first game and pushed the majority forward. He had 3 units of Judicators in the sky though so I was loathe to leave the back too exposed. I had two main channels to use to get to him/his objective, both of which were heavily flanked by terrain (so the Heraldors had a great game…)

Again, the two units of pigs did nothing, and the 20-man Ardboyz unit was not needed (10 would have been fine). We both held our objective up until the last turn.

Again(!!!!) I finished losing to a Major, with absolutely no kill points. Picked off the odd Fulminator, but didn’t manage to wipe any unit out completely.

Needless to say, pretty embarrassing for this to happen with one of the smashiest armies in the game. Definitely not something I intend to let happen again.

 

One positive of the day however – I finally grabbed myself a Mawkrusha. Definitely see why he’s something of a linchpin for us. The way it’s going I’m going to end up with something of a netlist, which is what I wanted to avoid – but as we’re all aware by now, there’s not many different directions we can go until the GHB2 shakes things up a bit.

[Thanatos Ares]

Sounds unlucky on your part buddy. Mawcrusha's are awesome! 10man brute squads should kill a Ghoul King on ZD in a single round if you got to go first and the dice didn't abandon you entirely.... lol

Hopefully you had a great time and learnt some valuable lesson about the strengths and weaknesses of your list!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fungrim]

14 minutes ago, Thanatos Ares said:

Sounds unlucky on your part buddy. Mawcrusha's are awesome! 10man brute squads should kill a Ghoul King on ZD in a single round if you got to go first and the dice didn't abandon you entirely.... lol

Hopefully you had a great time and learnt some valuable lesson about the strengths and weaknesses of your list!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can happily say it was a heady mix of me playing poorly and two good opponents.

But yes, I do have a terrible relationship with dice (why do I play this game?!)

Aye the Horrors got to my Brutes before they could swing, just after the Ghoul on ZD used his range weapon against them. By the time the Brutes went to swing there was probably only 5 or 6 left - who didn't perform particularly well. Lost a few more to Battleshock. By the time my turn came back around after his double-turn - it had run away from me, despite a megaboss running in to try and help out.

Definitely valuable lessons learnt! Cheers Thanatos!

[Solaris]

Sounds like you had some trouble making the different elements of your list work together as a cohesive force. In general you want to use your Ardboys as a screen for your Brutes - that means that even if your opponent gets a double turn and charges you, he has to attack the Ardboys. You then get to pile in with the Brutes and counter attack, since they are within 3" of the charging enemy. Gore-gruntas can be invaluable if you use them well. They are not going to kill a whole lot, but by simply running them up the field and standing them in the way of your opponent, you can secure a numbers advantage on the rest of the battle field. If for example the ZD has to spend 1-3 turns trying to kill the pigs instead of killing Brutes, that's really really good for you.

I don't think you have to rely on netlists. Unless playing on the top tables in competitive tournaments, there are loads of directions we can go. I do think your list looks more or less solid, though the triple Megaboss may be a bit iffy.

[Fungrim]

42 minutes ago, Solaris said:

Sounds like you had some trouble making the different elements of your list work together as a cohesive force. In general you want to use your Ardboys as a screen for your Brutes - that means that even if your opponent gets a double turn and charges you, he has to attack the Ardboys. You then get to pile in with the Brutes and counter attack, since they are within 3" of the charging enemy. Gore-gruntas can be invaluable if you use them well. They are not going to kill a whole lot, but by simply running them up the field and standing them in the way of your opponent, you can secure a numbers advantage on the rest of the battle field. If for example the ZD has to spend 1-3 turns trying to kill the pigs instead of killing Brutes, that's really really good for you.

I don't think you have to rely on netlists. Unless playing on the top tables in competitive tournaments, there are loads of directions we can go. I do think your list looks more or less solid, though the triple Megaboss may be a bit iffy.

Completely agree with you on both points. Taking a 20-man Ardboyz unit means if they clog up too much of my front line, the Brutes won't see action quick enough (part of the reason I'm looking at 2x10s or just a single 10-man unit).

I'd like to keep at least 3 piggies in. I've held an objectives for 5 turns just with one unit of pigs up the flank, and as you say they're decent screening. It's difficult to justify a 180-point chaff unit though. 

I'm definitely dropping 1 if not 2 of the megabosses to make room for the newly acquired Maw. That's only 280 though, so need to drop at least one unit of Gruntas and either 10 Ardboyz or the other Grunta unit (then add in a Shaman). It's not really a netlist because it's the logical list, gives you maximum Brutes with bodies in Ardboyz and speed in pigs. Plus Maw, Megaboss for holding boss, and Warchanter and Shaman for buffs. Solid, and just feels like the only option to compete with strong lists (there's a lot of tough lists at my club, and I've got Heat 2 coming up..)

[thediceabide]

One thing to remember about the Gore-Gruntas is that they cannot possibly hit as hard as a Brute, and be the same cost. If you're expecting 3 of them to handle combat the way 5 Brutes would, you're going to be disappointed. They're paying their points for the extra wound, but mostly speed. They're not ideal combat units, instead they're better at hopping onto objectives, or killing off very small units that are guarding them.

I've personally had luck with 20-man Ardboyz units by intermingling a unit of Brutes inside them. With the hackas you can reach over an Ardboy base.

Best of luck and keep bashin' headz!

[roberto]

9 hours ago, Fungrim said:

I'd like to keep at least 3 piggies in. I've held an objectives for 5 turns just with one unit of pigs up the flank, and as you say they're decent screening. It's difficult to justify a 180-point chaff unit though. 

 

That's the major weakness of IJ's.  No chaff.  Hoping the new GH corrects this with 5 man AB units.

[Fungrim]

12 hours ago, thediceabide said:

One thing to remember about the Gore-Gruntas is that they cannot possibly hit as hard as a Brute, and be the same cost. If you're expecting 3 of them to handle combat the way 5 Brutes would, you're going to be disappointed. They're paying their points for the extra wound, but mostly speed. They're not ideal combat units, instead they're better at hopping onto objectives, or killing off very small units that are guarding them.

I've personally had luck with 20-man Ardboyz units by intermingling a unit of Brutes inside them. With the hackas you can reach over an Ardboy base.

Best of luck and keep bashin' headz!

Agreed. a good 20 point drop for the Gruntas would be welcomed. They're technically pointed right to be fair (15 wounds, 4+ and pump out a lot of attacks), but they just don't perform for 180 points on the table. Shame. Definitely going to keep a single 3-pig unit in anyway, adds something different for sure.

20-man Ardboyz with Brutes inside sounds interesting! I've only every tried that kind of thing once and it became a bit of a pain in terms of movement.

 

12 hours ago, roberto said:

That's the major weakness of IJ's.  No chaff.  Hoping the new GH corrects this with 5 man AB units.

Very true, although I like the 180-point functionality in certain ways (easy swapping units etc), it's also massively restricting at times. Especially with the Maw and Shaman being overcosted.

As the general consensus seems to be, GHBII will hopefully solve at least a few of our current headaches!

 

[Solaris]

1 hour ago, Fungrim said:

Agreed. a good 20 point drop for the Gruntas would be welcomed. They're technically pointed right to be fair (15 wounds, 4+ and pump out a lot of attacks), but they just don't perform for 180 points on the table. Shame.

I really don't understand everyone saying they don't perform on the table. How are you using them? What do you expect them to do? This is not just aimed at you, but at everyone saying they don't perform. I'm very curious - my unit of 3 Gruntas has been crucial in every single game I played with them so far.

[Fungrim]

11 minutes ago, Solaris said:

I really don't understand everyone saying they don't perform on the table. How are you using them? What do you expect them to do? This is not just aimed at you, but at everyone saying they don't perform. I'm very curious - my unit of 3 Gruntas has been crucial in every single game I played with them so far.

I think it's less that they don't perform in terms of their functionality (fast, chaff, blocking, claiming), it's that the trade-off between those benefits and the cost in matched play can make it difficult to justify including any more than 3, if at all.

Getting down to the grit of it, 10 attacks 3+ 3+, -1, 1 just doesn't seem to do anything. Then 12 attacks, 4+ 4+, -0, 1 (actually tends to do more for me than the riders weirdly!). Either way, as you've insinuated, they're not there to kill much, despite their not-that-terrible load-out. I think I'd actually prefer it if they had worse attack-output, and were considerably cheaper.

As I say, a slight knock down in points makes the most sense, and would make them a fairly impressive must-have.

[Chris Tomlin]

Hey @Fungrim,

Good reports and interesting list. No shame in losing to arguably stronger lists/more experienced players etc. The important thing is learning from and trying to not repeat mistakes. If you can at least acknowledge where you've gone wrong you are on the path to making it right.

As for the list, I dunno man. I can see some value in a second Megaboss, but honestly, I think you lose too much with three...as cool as it is! It does have lots of stuff, but I can't imagine it doing what I would like my Ironjawz lists to do on the table. Obviously you and other people may find different things work.

You've talk about not wanting to Netlist, but if this is just at the expense of a potentially more solid build then I wouldn't worry and go with whatever. We don't have much variety truth be told!! Myself, followed by @Sangfroid have probably (almost definitely) played the most tournament games with Ironjawz, so it is only natural they get referred to as such. There are still plenty of tweaks/variations that can be made to our builds if you're adamant you want to try something different, @DeadlySarcasm has been doing the same himself with newer lists  

I will always include 3 Gore-gruntas as I like to compete on the painting front as well as gaming, so they are crucial in that regard. I've also warmed to them a lot more nowadays. It's all about managing your own expectation with them. Usually I just play them side on as a screen similar to Ardboyz. You can also use their speed and 15 4+ save wounds as semi reliable objective grabbers/holders. Don't give up on them yet...it took me a lot more than the 5 games you've played to find my feet with them tbh!  
My preference would be for an improved warscroll, in lieu of that though, a small reduction will suffice.

Without wanting to go on and on here, there is one part of your post I just wanted to pick up on;

On ‎20‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 9:23 AM, Fungrim said:

Needless to say, pretty embarrassing for this to happen with one of the smashiest armies in the game. Definitely not something I intend to let happen again.

Honestly, don't worry about this. It's not embarrassing and for the most part it's actually irrelevant. Your initial concern should be how to achieve the main objective of each battleplan, which of course may well involved some killing! It's easy to lose sight and just assume as Ironjawz you should be running around carelessly trying to table the opponent. I've found that actually (and perhaps strangely), Ironjawz don't actually work best that way. I'm often quite cautious with mine and don't always score a massive amount of kill points. It's all about that objective. Don't let people bait you!

You seem pretty on the ball, so I'm sure you'll be able to take your learnings forward and convert them into victories going forward. The Cabbage will help. After a hiatus from my lists late 2016, early 2017, he has now returned as a staple of my lists. I just don't think the army works without him, irrespective of him being overpriced. My tip for him is the Talisman and a slightly more reserved playstyle...as tempting as Battle Brew and pushing him forward may be!!  

Keep up the good reports mate, shame I'm not at Heat 2 anymore!  

Chris

[Fungrim]

1 hour ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Hey @Fungrim,

Good reports and interesting list. No shame in losing to arguably stronger lists/more experienced players etc. The important thing is learning from and trying to not repeat mistakes. If you can at least acknowledge where you've gone wrong you are on the path to making it right.

As for the list, I dunno man. I can see some value in a second Megaboss, but honestly, I think you lose too much with three...as cool as it is! It does have lots of stuff, but I can't imagine it doing what I would like my Ironjawz lists to do on the table. Obviously you and other people may find different things work.

You've talk about not wanting to Netlist, but if this is just at the expense of a potentially more solid build then I wouldn't worry and go with whatever. We don't have much variety truth be told!! Myself, followed by @Sangfroid have probably (almost definitely) played the most tournament games with Ironjawz, so it is only natural they get referred to as such. There are still plenty of tweaks/variations that can be made to our builds if you're adamant you want to try something different, @DeadlySarcasm has been doing the same himself with newer lists  

I will always include 3 Gore-gruntas as I like to compete on the painting front as well as gaming, so they are crucial in that regard. I've also warmed to them a lot more nowadays. It's all about managing your own expectation with them. Usually I just play them side on as a screen similar to Ardboyz. You can also use their speed and 15 4+ save wounds as semi reliable objective grabbers/holders. Don't give up on them yet...it took me a lot more than the 5 games you've played to find my feet with them tbh!  
My preference would be for an improved warscroll, in lieu of that though, a small reduction will suffice.

 [..........................]

Hi Chris -

Firslty, huge thanks for this feedback! Really appreciate it all, without wanting to sound sycophantic - your experienced take on things is obviously very valuable.

That list was very much working with what I'd amassed so far (bar the 3rd Megaboss that I picked up to assemble 'The Triplets'). Had high hopes for them, 'bosses seem to be as effective as whole units in themselves at times, and paired up with Brutes are even more valuable. Another of my drawbacks that I need to work on is I'm used to playing a particular style (Order), so the transition to Destruction and in particular knowing when and where the choppy units need to be, is still new to me. I basically need to get my head in the game and get my waaaagghh on!

I'll be trying out what is essentially a variant on your Masters list this weekend, although I'll probably be playing against Sayl-Stormfiends, so I won't judge it too quickly...

Completely agree on the pigs. I love just seeing them on the board, so would be loathe to completely give up on them. Both yourself and @Solaris are right though - I definitely need to be more aware of how I use them, and not expect too much from them.

 

1 hour ago, Chris Tomlin said:

[.............]

Honestly, don't worry about this. It's not embarrassing and for the most part it's actually irrelevant. Your initial concern should be how to achieve the main objective of each battleplan, which of course may well involved some killing! It's easy to lose sight and just assume as Ironjawz you should be running around carelessly trying to table the opponent. I've found that actually (and perhaps strangely), Ironjawz don't actually work best that way. I'm often quite cautious with mine and don't always score a massive amount of kill points. It's all about that objective. Don't let people bait you!

You seem pretty on the ball, so I'm sure you'll be able to take your learnings forward and convert them into victories going forward. The Cabbage will help. After a hiatus from my lists late 2016, early 2017, he has now returned as a staple of my lists. I just don't think the army works without him, irrespective of him being overpriced. My tip for him is the Talisman and a slightly more reserved playstyle...as tempting as Battle Brew and pushing him forward may be!!  

Keep up the good reports mate, shame I'm not at Heat 2 anymore!  

Chris

That's another learning curve for me to overcome to be fair. In the above Death game I rushed in when I probably shouldn't have, and on the flip side during the SE match-up, I probably should have committed going forward (at least, in a more calculated manner).

Definitely looking forward to getting the cabbage on the table, he's just been primed and would like to get him at least basecoated & washed before taking him to the club. Might even battle report again after the weekend if I manage to squeeze in a game or two.

Yeah absolutely a shame you're not at Heat2! Hope the Sylvaneth are coming along well (haven't got round to listening to the latest pod yet)

Ta! 

[DeadlySarcasm]

Cheers for the mention @Chris Tomlin!

I have indeed been trying different lists! One of the things that I think a lot of people tend to overlook when it comes to writing a good list, isn't just whether it is objectively a good list, is whether a list is good for them personally. All of my lists make use of a unit of 10 brutes, whereas Chris (and a lot of other Ironjawz players) run lists that have a unit of 15 brutes. The reason I run 10 over 15, is because I don't think I'd be able to make as effective use of 15 as I feel like I can with 10.

So the standard "net list" just doesn't work for me personally. For a time as well I've not been running a Maw-Crusha, as the size of the base makes it quite difficult to always get where I want it. I actually still think there's a lot of merit around running double megaboss on foot, warchanter and a shaman as your hero set up. With the Ironfist, gives you plenty of points to play with, which means lots of boys on the table!

The more I play though, the more I see the value in the Maw-Crusha, so its made its way back into my lists lately. I really hope Gordrakk gets a decent enough points drop to make him a viable pick. I ran him out a few times when I first picked up the army, and his command ability on the Ironfist is just insane, especially if you get the double turn on someone. I'm sure he's sub-optimal even if he does eventually get a points drop, but I think he will be great fun to take.

[Solaris]

1 hour ago, DeadlySarcasm said:

The more I play though, the more I see the value in the Maw-Crusha, so its made its way back into my lists lately. I really hope Gordrakk gets a decent enough points drop to make him a viable pick. I ran him out a few times when I first picked up the army, and his command ability on the Ironfist is just insane, especially if you get the double turn on someone. I'm sure he's sub-optimal even if he does eventually get a points drop, but I think he will be great fun to take.

Just a note on Gordrakk, I think he (and other supers like Archaon, Nagash and Alarielle) should be sub-optimal at 2000 points (i.e. in tournament play). They are all designed to be the leaders of large armies, and have built in mechanics that scale massively with the size of the battle. Making Gordrakk worth using at 2000 points will make him absolutely broken in larger games, which he is arguably designed for and fit better into thematically.