Lets Talk About: Scions of the Storm

[Turragor]

I thought I'd share a few thought's I've been having for making the most of Scions of the Storm.

Scions is a very powerful tool and it's our allegiance ability. I like the idea of squeezing all the usefulness out of it.

The ability

During deployment choose to deploy units in the celestial realm. Each subsequent movement phase roll for these units. On a 3+ the unit must be deployed anywhere (more than 9" from the enemy). On a 1 or a 2 the units stay in the celestial realm that turn.

Criticisms

I've seen a lot of judgement over scions mostly broken down into 4 categories:

1. Scions is bad
2. Scions is not guaranteed, you can be early, you can be late
3. The charge range is too far
4. You come down after the hero phase

I think 1 is reports from people who feel 2 and/or 3 and /or 4 so I'll just look at 2, 3 and 4.

• Scions is not guaranteed

This is true, however it is weighted to succeed more often than not (66% for each unit). What this means is that you'll get most of your units down turn 1 and the rest down turn 2, probably. On average.

You can plan around that. Depending on your enemy you might know how fast they move, whether they'll stand and shoot or race for your table edge. There's a discussion over whether you roll all at once or one at a time for units and I think it's one at a time but you decide in what order you roll for each unit. Roll key units first and have a few plans in mind depending on the outcomes.

• The charge range is too far

Having failed 2 crucial charges in my last game and losing, I know this. A 9 on 2d6 is a big ask. You can increase your chance of having an impact sans movement and charge though (see below).

• You come down after the hero phase

This, together with the lack of guarantees, can play havoc on buff dependent lists it is true. I don't see any silver lining to movement phase deployment but hey, it applies to a lot of similar mechanics.

Some possible ways to enjoy Scions

There are a number of things you can do to still come down and make an impact without moving though, some very important things.

• Come down and shoot. Units that are decent in and out of combat are good here, you might get the charge off but aren't doing 0 if you don't. Units that are mostly shooting really like scions (bar the risk of not coming down). You are also at least 9 inches away and those charges can be tough don't you know!
• Come down together with a In Pursuit deployment. The new Vanguard units (with astral compasses or relocated via the Lord Aquilor) have a reliable deployment method. It's also a little bit closer but table edge restricted. Still, it can be a big boost to know that any time you roll for a key unit you can have in pursuit backup guaranteed (list depending).
• Come down on the defensive. Objectives and chokepoints. Liberators are one of the greatest beneficiaries of scions. You aren't using them to run (lol) after the enemy. They're there to protect and blockade. You are also at least 9 inches away and those charges can be tough don't you know!
• Come down in support of an existing combat. You come down exactly where you want to be with scions which makes it great for reinforcing a combat going south that you need to keep going.
• Come down with 3d6" charge range. I've been thinking a lot about prosecutors and Scions. These guys have a much better chance of making the charge with scions and aren't dear units. Javelins in particular are great (as always). You land at or outside the double damage range but if you really want to keep an enemy in place, even for a turn, you've an extra d6 to make the distance up.
• Come down in a Tempest Lords Harbinger Chamber. Okay I'm biased with this one because I want a list with a Stardrake and it's pretty niche. Still you can charge and pile in regardless of distance and the 1/2" connection requirement.
• Come down outside 9" and enjoy that restriction. When I think about Stormcast in this way it really opens my mind to all sorts of strange lists and  I love it. Mostly I think like the majority when planning a list - A) do I have hammerstrike? B)why not? - and it bores me. Thinking of stormcast appearing out of nowhere as reinforcements or holding key areas means I open my mind a little. I also imagine that it makes the opponent think more. Surviving a hammerstrike is something the enemies of the stormcast have been learning for a meta and a bit now, unless you can bubblewrap the entire battlefield and all objectives it's not so simple anymore.

Final Thoughts

I think the best thing about Scions is that it is a trade off. Everyone enjoyed Skyborne Slayers and Warrior Brotherhood because of the mobility (yes some loved deploying directly into combat but not with the entire battalion). Stormcast need mobility. Scions is balanced enough that it shouldn't be taken away from us. No more footslogging stormcast! Yay!

Personally I love how plans need to change on the fly as a result of using scions. It's not the best ability in the game but it's pretty great.

It does mean things like alphastriking into combat with full buffs are a big ask and my final conclusion would be that you can and should make lists that make use of scions a lot and lists that don't make use of scions much at all.

What do people think? Anything bouncing around your skulls after reading this?

 

Bonus Fact: Did you know that you can use Scions of the Storm in a (large) mixed Order force? The mega battalions that still have the lightning strike ability have the Scions of the Storm ability (the battalion has it, not the army) and then Lightning Strike if you have the Stormcast Eternals allegiance.

[chord]

Quote

Bonus Fact: Did you know that you can use Scions of the Storm in a (large) mixed Order force? The mega battalions that still have the lightning strike ability have the Scions of the Storm ability (the battalion has it, not the army) and then Lightning Strike if you have the Stormcast Eternals allegiance.

How is that possible? I thought this was an Army Allegiance?

[Carnelian]

For me the big question (that I've raised in the other SE thread) is whether you roll for and deploy the units one at a time or alternatively do all of your rolls before deploying so you can inform the deployment based on who else is coming down.

It's ambiguous as written. I really hope you do all the rolls at the same time.

[Turragor]

Vexillor charge re-rolling also has a place as part of a Melee scions drop 

[Olincay]

Thing with scions is that you don't have to use it if you don't want too, there are still plenty of ways of getting stormcasts across the table, especially with the release of the hunters and paladors. 

It's definitely a handy tool to have, but If you're solely relying on scions I think that's a mistake.
 

[Nubgan]

18 hours ago, chord said:

How is that possible? I thought this was an Army Allegiance?

Some of the big formations have Scions of the Storm as an ability it can use, so in theory (though very unlikely because of how many points the formations cost) you can stick the formation in a mixed order force.

Thanks for this thread, definately food for thought and I think you have answered a rules question I was pondering to do with EVERYTHING in the list getting this as standard. I definately think when it comes to my own 2000 points that I will probably save some of my liberators to drop on objectives across the table from my deployment zone. Saves walking them across thats for sure! With my own force, I know most of mine will deploy because I have a decent amount of shooting to protect and force people to me.

I dare say its not a bad keep my general safe tactic too if your facing a shooting heavy army, will save you taking extra rounds of shooting during the slog across the board.

[Turragor]

Yes I think it's going to be a rare matchup when I deploy everything in the celestial realms with scions.

I think what I will be doing is working out when I would deploy a unit in the celestial realm (against which opponent or list and why) and then what I am going to do exactly with scions under good conditions (able to drop as I want them) once the match starts and what I am going to do with scions under less than good conditions (not able to drop exactly as I want them) once the match starts.

To do that I need to know what list I'm running. Once I pin down my next tournament list I'll probably share the whys and whats for each unit here.

It's all theory and I'll probably ruin my preparation with rash decisions but baby steps!

[Louzi]

It is just not good. Period. And it competes with battle traits of other factions. Just compare it with the awesome Tzeentch battle trait. Or the Destruction battle trait. Even the ****** order battle trait is better. It would be ok, if you could decide lightning strike a unit or not. But you can't...

[Turragor]

I think it's pretty good, as I said. You've just got to plan and think. And it'll let you down sometimes. Other times you'll win with it (pretty much matches Tzeentch and Destruction traits you mention).

40 minutes ago, Louzi said:

Even the ****** order battle trait is better.

I disagree for sure with this.

45 minutes ago, Louzi said:

It would be ok, if you could decide lightning strike a unit or not.

And here, are you being truly honest in saying that deployment wherever you wish (outside 9 inches) whenever you wish is just ok? Woud you also reduce the 9"? Down to 6"?

I just think deployment like this is such a huge deal. Particularly against gunlines or alpha strike lists.

I understand that you would love it to be better - which would ofc be awesome but all factions could say the same. Destruction might want movement without needing to be near heroes. Tzeentch might want more dice to reroll.

If you are talking about improving it I'd maybe consider adding in a command trait - much like destruction and Tzeentch (most factions actually) - that augments it very slightly.

Like maybe, "Champion of Storms - As long as your general is alive you can add or subtract 1 from the Scions roll".

[Requizen]

1 hour ago, Louzi said:

It is just not good. Period. And it competes with battle traits of other factions. Just compare it with the awesome Tzeentch battle trait. Or the Destruction battle trait. Even the ****** order battle trait is better. It would be ok, if you could decide lightning strike a unit or not. But you can't...

It's a fine trait. Relying on it for important units, however, is a bad idea. I think it's a great trait if you're going MSU style Stormcast, but if you have a 15 Retributor blob, you need to use one of the more reliable options (Relictor or Vexillor). 

Order trait is garbage. 

Even if you don't use Scions, you still want the Command Traits, Artifacts, Mount Abilities, and Judicator Battlelines anyway, so the option for Scions is more like optional sprinkles on a kickass sundae.

[chord]

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

Order trait is garbage. 

 

Agreed the Order traits are all garbage

[Olincay]

18 hours ago, Louzi said:

It is just not good. Period. And it competes with battle traits of other factions. Just compare it with the awesome Tzeentch battle trait. Or the Destruction battle trait. Even the ****** order battle trait is better. It would be ok, if you could decide lightning strike a unit or not. But you can't...

Where does it say you can't decide if you want to bring them down or not?
I interrupt it that I can. 

[Immersturm]

In essence, Scions has one purpose. Avoid alpha strike. How do you do it? By not deploying and closing the gap. If you have units, that can not survive the enemy going first, like Raptors against Skyfires or other shooty factions like Skryre, or the Judicators from the Hammerstrike. Then you plop down and retaliate. This works best with Hammerstrike, because the allows the Paladins to close the gap reliably, if the Judicators arrive.

However, this does not seem like a tool to improve charges or outmeneuver a faster melee army. It is too unreliable and the charge distance too great. You have better tools, like the Banner or Prayer. Yes, the prayer is better because if it fails, the unit is still on the board. It is basically a live or die choice. You deploy via Scions or you eat the alpha strike. Choosing Scions is simply choosing the lesser of the two evils. This is what you need to be asking yourself. Will something worse happen if I do not deploy this unit via Scion?

There are of course niche uses like moving Liberators on distant objectives or making the occasional high risk high rewars play, but those aren't the norm and definitely shouldn't be the core of your strategy, as it fails 33% of the time. If you want reliability you need to take Banner, Hammerstrike, Vanguard Wing or Vanguard units.

That is my take on it. Mind you, I am usually averse to risk, unless it is the only way. I prefer reliability over taking chances, generally speaking.

[Carnelian]

50 minutes ago, Olincay said:

Where does it say you can't decide if you want to bring them down or not?
I interrupt it that I can. 

You have to roll for each unit at the beginning of every turn so I'm afraid you cannot wait and decide not to roll for them until later.  

1 minute ago, Immersturm said:

There are of course niche uses like moving Liberators on distant objectives or making the occasional high risk high rewars play, but those aren't the norm and definitely shouldn't be the core of your strategy, as it fails 33% of the time. 

Deep striking Liberators on to objectives is quite reliable if you have enough Liberator squads and it's also game winning. I'm using it every game so wouldn't call it niche, personally.

[Immersturm]

@Carnelian I mentioned at the end, that this is my personal view on the matter and how I play. If you do it differently, more power to you.

[Turragor]

33 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

Yes, the prayer is better because if it fails, the unit is still on the board.

I see what you are saying and agree. Where I disagree is that its the danger of an Alpha strike you are avoiding only. If you have to get any stormcast unit within range of the enemy, and stay outside their threat range, a 66% chance of appearing anywhere outside 9" (a threat range for nearly every unit we have) trumps slogging across the board. There is a greater than 33% chance you will be shot to oblivion against most armies.

Of course, as you note, the reliable methods that trump scions. The iron cast reliable choices being Vexillor (1 unit 1 time), hammerstrike deployment (if prosecutors are near) and Vanguard wing (again if prosecutors are near) and the prayer (1 unit a turn with same chance as scions).

You can forget about charges if you like, it is optimistic, I was just giving some examples of how you can consider attempting charges from the drop. You can use it with a full ranged army and the single big risk is arriving piecemeal (though with some imagination you can avoid that being a total disaster).

39 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

By not deploying and closing the gap.

Basically I think this is all scions does but that this alone is massive and not limited to alpha strikes. Particularly against the gunline type meta emerging.

I think Scions works worst when your opponent can let you take the first turn because then you end up with units dropping. You can, as I mentioned, figure out ways to make them count but you're better off I think forcing the opponent to go first).

This is why I am currently looking into single drop armies to deploy in the celestial realm even if they come down on a unit by unit basis!

42 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

Mind you, I am usually averse to risk, unless it is the only way. I prefer reliability over taking chances, generally speaking.

I think this neatly sums up why we think differently, probably, but what I want to contend is that scions doesn't have to be totally risky and you can do some risk management if you're aware of your approach, you think about scions when building your list and you understand scions weaknesses.

[Olincay]

9 minutes ago, Carnelian said:

You have to roll for each unit at the beginning of every turn so I'm afraid you cannot wait and decide not to roll for them until later.  

Deep striking Liberators on to objectives is quite reliable if you have enough Liberator squads and it's also game winning. I'm using it every game so wouldn't call it niche, personally.

I find it quite odd how you can't choose to attempt to bring in a unit if you don't want too. In a matched play setting I thought it would make sense to be able to make those competitive decisions.

[Turragor]

6 minutes ago, Olincay said:

I find it quite odd how you can't choose to attempt to bring in a unit if you don't want too. In a matched play setting I thought it would make sense to be able to make those competitive decisions.

Anything that makes it a bit unreliable is intended to balance it out I think.

I believe limitations can be worked around in almost all cases. Only tournaments from the release onwards (and the results - if stormcast armies are making use of scions) will show us if it's right or wrong as it is now.