Donal Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 28 minutes ago, Jamie the Jasper said: For example, if a respected and influential tournament were to ban a particular unit because the TO believes it's so overpowered that it would distort the outcome of the event, does the TO bear any responsibility if using that unit then becomes taboo across the whole community, even in non-competitive games? Do they have a responsibility to those who have invested time and money in that unit, perhaps long before it became overpowered? And if the TO does bear some responsibility, shouldn't the people who own the unit have some right to question the comp decision, even if they don't plan to attend the event? Why would the TO have a responsibility to world-wide hobbiest? Where does that end? I think a TO should put on his or her own tournament to best of their ability, usually based on what they would like to play in (or a combination if multiple TOs are involved). They arent banning units for all tournaments, just for the one they are hosting. If it is influential it is probably because of the significant efforts that they went to to get it there. That was probably achieved by them staying true to their own view on what is a "good tournament". If there is significant pushback from attendees I am sure they will consider listening (or offering a refund), but I dont see how why they would have to listen to other people who arent attending their event. If they continue to not listen to the community to stay relevant then I expect attendees will vote with their feet and just wont attend. I think this discussion shouldn't confuse TO's and GW. GW is a company which has some responsibility towards the community (which they have started to actively engage with in last year or so). In my view, TOs are essentially local community figureheads who may or may not represent a larger demographic. They have also made it possible to provide their own feedback. Given the amount of tournaments out there all making different decisions re: points, compendium, scenarios, I think this is the most fluid position AoS has been in since GHB came out. Look at Alliance, Sheffield, Tomorrow Burns, SCGT - all 4 are taking different approaches to GHB scenarios/points/house rules and all 4 are influential tournaments (depending of course on the definition of influence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 13 minutes ago, Donal said: Why would the TO have a responsibility to world-wide hobbiest? Where does that end? Look at Alliance, Sheffield, Tomorrow Burns, SCGT - all 4 are taking different approaches to GHB scenarios/points/house rules and all 4 are influential tournaments (depending of course on the definition of influence). All very good points and well made. I suppose the thing to watch for would be if any aspect of their various approaches were to converge to the point where it effectively becomes standard. Insistence on round bases and base to base measuring are probably good examples of tournament convergence that has gone on to become more or less the standard across the community as a whole. Personally I feel that standardisation of bases and measuring is a good thing for the community, so I see this as tournaments using their influence in a positive and constructive way, although people who own armies on square bases would no doubt disagree. How do I reconcile that with my view that anything that discourages people from using the models they own should generally be avoided? It's a tough one, but certainly something that would play on my mind if I was a TO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayniac Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 22 minutes ago, Donal said: Why would the TO have a responsibility to world-wide hobbiest? Where does that end? They don't, but the fact remains that what tends to happen in major tournaments will affect others, either because players in those tournaments will pass it on to their own metas, or just via discussion. If all the major tournaments decided, for instance, to ban Compendium scrolls, or even if just one did it, you would see a trickle-down effect; if the hypothetical top-tier player Bob Jones plays in an event like that, then Bob Jones' local meta is going to be encouraged to ban Compendium scrolls to practice for the tournament, which in turn will result in other people bringing those ideas (i.e. no compendium scrolls) to their own metas, or simply via forums/podcasts/social media metas may think "Hey that's not a bad idea" and in turn ban compendium scrolls even when they have no affiliation with Bob Jones or may be on the other side of the world from him. It will have an effect; what happens in competitive events always has an effect on gameplay at all levels, from local tournaments to casual game night. Right or wrong, the desires and changes that tournament players make changes everything else, especially in metas that want to use "tournament standard" lists and ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Jamie the Jasper said: ...if a respected and influential tournament were to ban a particular unit because the TO believes it's so overpowered... There is the problem, and where any responsibility should, perhaps, start and end. TOs, even well-meaning ones, have biases just likec the rest of us. What they believe will make a fair and balanced event is an expression of their bias, and their bias can pretty much directly impact my enjoyment of the standard (even GHb standard) game. If I could magic wand one thing about tournaments, it would be for all TOs to follow a standard, universal, all-inclusive set of rules for their events. You know, like maybe some sort of GW Sanctioned Toyrnament Rules Set. Skip the bias, and let my games in my basement be pkayed a standard way. One can dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 47 minutes ago, Donal said: If there is significant pushback from attendees I am sure they will consider listening (or offering a refund), but I dont see how why they would have to listen to other people who arent attending their event. If they continue to not listen to the community to stay relevant then I expect attendees will vote with their feet and just wont attend. Two problems with that. 1] People are sheep, waiting to be led. Some TO steps up and says "do it my way" and the masses fall in line. Even strong opinions of what is right and fair are cast aside to follow the leader. 2) There's no such thing as bad pizza, just some's better 'n others. People will play a set of rules they don't like rather than not playing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donal Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Jamie the Jasper said: How do I reconcile that with my view that anything that discourages people from using the models they own should generally be avoided? It's a tough one, but certainly something that would play on my mind if I was a TO. Promote your own club, hobby, community through forums in a productive manner, or host a tournament to lead by example? Thats how I would do it. 55 minutes ago, Sleboda said: If I could magic wand one thing about tournaments, it would be for all TOs to follow a standard, universal, all-inclusive set of rules for their events. You know, like maybe some sort of GW Sanctioned Toyrnament Rules Set. Skip the bias, and let my games in my basement be pkayed a standard way. One can dream. I like variety in decisions and the game, it adds nuances to games in terms of how to play. But each to their own. Thank goodness we don't have a magic wand, I'm sure if it was either your way or mine a lot of people would get antsy. 48 minutes ago, Sleboda said: Two problems with that. 1] People are ... waiting to be led. Some TO steps up and says "do it my way" and the masses fall in line. Even strong opinions of what is right and fair are cast aside to follow the leader. 2) There's no such thing as bad pizza, just some's better 'n others. People will play a set of rules they don't like rather than not playing at all. We have seen large tournaments make a decision and change based public opinion within a very short period. I'm going to avoid the sheep and leader comment cause that gets into a political debate that I don't want to get into, other than to say Archaeon rulez. 1 hour ago, wayniac said: It will have an effect; what happens in competitive events always has an effect on gameplay at all levels, from local tournaments to casual game night. Right or wrong, the desires and changes that tournament players make changes everything else, especially in metas that want to use "tournament standard" lists and ideas. This hobby is living and breathing. By the time communities adapt one comp, another will take its place. Yes, some tend to have longer staying powers than others, but time moves quickly. Find what works for you and your toy friends and play until your heats content or until the next shiny TO/Book/Army/Pack/partner comes along. With GW doing narrative games weekly, there is a lot more online & visible support for other styles of play. one could argue TOs are less important than they used to be (though maybe GW are engaging with some people more than they used to). Either way - I wish you all luck in your hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Ill just add that variety can come from themes, terrain models, scenario backgrounds, and so on. Universal rules would not stop variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottyjock Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 21 hours ago, Terry Pike said: ... and sent out spreadsheets asking people to get players of all levels from clubs to give feedback on what they think points should be. Interesting. Didn't know this! How was this communicated/sent out ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Pike Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 No idea lol. It was announced by some players in larger AoS WhatsApp groups if they could fill out a spreadsheet and send it back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhellion Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Terry Pike said: No idea lol. It was announced by some players in larger AoS WhatsApp groups if they could fill out a spreadsheet and send it back in. I got one from someone who received it from GW. GW sent the spreadsheet to various community members, who in turn pooled feedback from their local areas to input data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riavan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 If something is clearly op and making the game unfun. I think they should make any changes nessecary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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