New Player: Beastclaw Army Building questions

[HeadHunter]

Hello all,

 

I just recently purchased Icewind Assault and the GHB and I had a few questions:

1) As far as points cost - is the listed points value for the minimum number of that model? For instance, two Frostsabers would cost 60 points total (so the 4 in the box makes a total of 120 points)?

2) If so, as far as I can tell, I can actually swing a 2000-point army with just this box plus one more Stonehorn kit (depending on how I build it).

3) when I'm building the models, does it matter what weapons I model on them?  I'm unclear whether a unit hacs every weapon on its scroll or if you have to choose just one or something.  In other words, does the Icebrow Hunter have the Club, the Spear and the Crossbow, regardless of what's modeled?  And so if I'm reading the rules correctly he can use the spear and the crossbow in the same shooting phase?

Thanks for helping to clarify my understanding.

[Turragor]

I got the same box but boy am I slow painting it!

1. You are correct, it's points per minimum unit size. 2 Frostsabers are 60 and 4 are 120 etc.

2. Sounds right. 1600 no battalions with a Frostlord on Stonehorn and a Huskard on Thundertusk. There's ways to get even more points squeezed in but I think you want more models anyway. Probably more thundertusks. Or stonehorns. I feel that with those big beasts I am gonna need to learn to magnetise to get the most out of the army without having to buy 8 types of giant beast.

3. Most play wysiwyg (IE the model's weapons are the weapons they've got) in matched. If you are practising or testing I'd bet a lot don't care. I think here you are asking about something a bit different though - like which weapons on a warscroll do you use.

In general it's all that the warscroll indicates you have. In the icebrow hunter's case, it says you've got the club and the spear and "some are also equipped with" the crossbow.

So this wording means (basically) there's no reason not to have the crossbow on the model as you just get an extra ranged attack.

Other warscrolls make it clear that the weapons are an either or choice or come at some kind of cost. Or they perhaps offer a bonus for NOT taking an extra weapon.

If you look at the scroll for the Huskard on Thundertusk you see the description says "either a chaintrap or a harpoon launcher. Some instead ride to war with a blood vulture". So you can take one of those 3 and each has strengths and weaknesses to make you ponder. On top of that choice, you always get Frost Wreathed Ice (from the mount).

 

[HeadHunter]

Perfect, thank you! That is exactly what I needed to know about gear.  I know I could go crazy with magnets (I've magnetized Dreadnoughts and even Terminators before) but I might just build what I like best and what looks coolest (Rule of Cool prevails, after all) and I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to ****** up.

[Turragor]

I think its the big beasties mainly. I dont think there's anything to worry about with mournfang (I like gargant hackers or w/e the 2h option is).

But the beasties can be beastriders, huskards or frost lords and then stonehorn or thundertusk version of each.

I DO know that most lists have a Frostlord on Stonehorn and at least one huskard thundertusk so that is probably what I'll just build when I get to those kits!

[HeadHunter]

Speaking of Mournfang packs: If I'm running them as packs of two, one will always get the pistol.  Does the horn blower need to be its own model? And/or the banner bearer?  Or can a pack of two have all of these options?  The warscroll is kind of vague on that point.

[Turragor]

46 minutes ago, HeadHunter said:

Speaking of Mournfang packs: If I'm running them as packs of two, one will always get the pistol.  Does the horn blower need to be its own model? And/or the banner bearer?  Or can a pack of two have all of these options?  The warscroll is kind of vague on that point.

I think that the champion, banner bearer and musician all have to be different models in a unit.

You can give any or all of them a gargant hacker though, nothing stated against that (despite the options provided in the kit).

[HeadHunter]

Drat.  So between a musician and a banner, which would you think is more important then?  I was kind of hoping I could put the banner on either the Skalg or the horn blower.

 

I was going to run them as a pair of two-man packs, but I guess I could still do them as 4 and have each model with its own thing.  It just would have looked cool to have a herald with horn and banner, or the banner on the leader's mount.  I was concerned that I'd need to split the pack to have sufficient Battleline units but the Beastrider and the Yhetees can be the other two.

[HeadHunter]

As for the Blood Vulture, you don't ever have to pick one of your own untis, right?  You pick an enemy unit and the enemy picks one of their own, is that correct?  I'm trying to decide if one 50/50 mortal wound is better than 3 targeted regular wounds.

[mrstimpson38]

Perfect, thank you! That is exactly what I needed to know about gear.  I know I could go crazy with magnets (I've magnetized Dreadnoughts and even Terminators before) but I might just build what I like best and what looks coolest (Rule of Cool prevails, after all) and I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to ****** up.

I came from 40k as well and have been magnitizing for longer than I'd like. It was liberating to come to AoS because of how less convoluted the rules are and for the first time I said F it and haven't magnitizing a single model. It feels great to be honest. It just requires you to do some research before hand so you're not gimping yourself with a loadout that is well known for being useless.

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[Spiky Norman]

42 minutes ago, mrstimpson38 said:

 

I came from 40k as well and have been magnitizing for longer than I'd like. It was liberating to come to AoS because of how less convoluted the rules are and for the first time I said F it and haven't magnitizing a single model. It feels great to be honest. It just requires you to do some research before hand so you're not gimping yourself with a loadout that is well known for being useless.

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk
 

True that!

It is so nice to basically just be able to use things straight out of the box, and not worry about having to get a second box or magnetize, so you can field the unit with upgrades/command sometimes, and sometimes without the upgrades/command.

[Turragor]

3 hours ago, HeadHunter said:

Drat.  So between a musician and a banner, which would you think is more important then?  I was kind of hoping I could put the banner on either the Skalg or the horn blower.

 

I was going to run them as a pair of two-man packs, but I guess I could still do them as 4 and have each model with its own thing.  It just would have looked cool to have a herald with horn and banner, or the banner on the leader's mount.  I was concerned that I'd need to split the pack to have sufficient Battleline units but the Beastrider and the Yhetees can be the other two.

I haven't even played them yet as I'm painting them so someone else will have a better idea but, in my experience, the charge is so important. 3 dice and pick 2 best is pretty nice.

I think with mournfang you ideally want a unit 4 because a unit of 2 doesn't make enough of an impact in one activation. The points aren't an issue, it's more that you - like me - have bought the nice boxset that only comes with 4

I'd opt for another box for flexibility. 4 is probably OTT (the repack). If you can find the older Ogre Kingdoms 2 Mournfang box that's more economical and gives you 6 total. Perfect for 2 x 3 or 1 x 4 and 1 x 2 or even 3 x 2 if you want 2s.

Blood vulture - it's always a mw on enemy unit the dice just decides which unit selected (your opponents choice v yours) gets vulture'd.

I struggled for a long time to understand the point of blood vultures but then I read the range - 30 is pretty nice for a single mw. I still might be missing the subtlety of the vulture. I think you'd probably take a list with all blood vultures if you can (so multiple 30 inch mortal wounds on distant opponent targets)

[HeadHunter]

1 hour ago, mrstimpson38 said:

It just requires you to do some research before hand so you're not gimping yourself with a loadout that is well known for being useless.

 

I agree - but I want to abide by the Rule of Cool too - I enjoy the look of some options better than others, and I'm not a competitive player, so as long as nothing is sub-optimal.  So I was intending to go with culling clubs and iron fists on the riders because I don't like the look of the hackers.  Now I just need to decide if the vulture or the chain is better for the beastriders.

[Turragor]

14 minutes ago, HeadHunter said:

I agree - but I want to abide by the Rule of Cool too - I enjoy the look of some options better than others, and I'm not a competitive player, so as long as nothing is sub-optimal.  So I was intending to go with culling clubs and iron fists on the riders because I don't like the look of the hackers.  Now I just need to decide if the vulture or the chain is better for the beastriders.

The chain is probably going to break off the moment you try transporting it anywhere.

I have my own rules for kit options (as I don't yet magnetise):

Priority 1 - is it cool?

Priority 2 - can it travel?

Priority 3 - Is it at least partly useful?

[HeadHunter]

Very good point - and mammoths are going to be hard enough to transport, though thankfully I've got the jumbo GW case (I just need to figure out how to fit them in).  But yeah, that chain could snap easily (and often) and besides, the vulture looks cool too!

Your priorities are in line with my own.  I bought these models in the first place because they looked wicked, and got into the game because I had the models.  So I suppose it only makes sense to make them look good as a first consideration, especially as I'm unlikely to play competitively (as I am a perma-scrub).

[Caffran101]

5 hours ago, HeadHunter said:

Drat.  So between a musician and a banner, which would you think is more important then?  I was kind of hoping I could put the banner on either the Skalg or the horn blower.

 

I was going to run them as a pair of two-man packs, but I guess I could still do them as 4 and have each model with its own thing.  It just would have looked cool to have a herald with horn and banner, or the banner on the leader's mount.  I was concerned that I'd need to split the pack to have sufficient Battleline units but the Beastrider and the Yhetees can be the other two.

If you run them as a two, take the banner and the musician.

The pistol shot is rather underwhelming.

However, the musician gives you 3 dice to roll for the charge (pick top two) - very nice

Banner means you reroll you battleshock of 6 - essential if you have 2 (they are bravey 6 - so if one dies you could loose the other with a battleshock roll of 6).

[HeadHunter]

Interesting.  I thought one of them always had to be the Skalg, and that he thus could not take the other upgrades.  Is that incorrect?

[Donal]

9 hours ago, HeadHunter said:

Interesting.  I thought one of them always had to be the Skalg, and that he thus could not take the other upgrades.  Is that incorrect?

The skalg can take upgrades (so hackers or ironfists). 
Personally I really prefer the look of the hackers (but i may be telling myself that cause they are better rules wise...)

 

14 hours ago, HeadHunter said:

As for the Blood Vulture, you don't ever have to pick one of your own untis, right?  You pick an enemy unit and the enemy picks one of their own, is that correct?  I'm trying to decide if one 50/50 mortal wound is better than 3 targeted regular wounds.

Thats correct. Competitive wise- the vulture is better, it is a guaranteed mortal wound on the enemy and has much better range. You can also use it in the same turn you run (since it isnt technically a missile weapon).

For me, I tend to travel with my army, so the fact that it is much less likely to break is a big win!

 

 

[Turragor]

Maybe I'll model a vulture on the end of a chain and thats a chain trap or a vulture as I see fit

[HeadHunter]

On 1/27/2017 at 2:19 AM, Donal said:

The skalg can take upgrades (so hackers or ironfists). 

I meant that the Skalg has to be one of the members of the pack (even if it's a pack of two) and could not also have the horn or the banner.  Am I reading it right?

[Turragor]

I now note the following (this is a Rules-As-Written scroll reading):

"The leader of this unit is a skalg."

You could argue that the unit 'doesn't have to be led' but I believe that to be false. IE A skalg is required.

"Models in this unit may be hornblowers" - they become a horn blower model. Unique like a skalg. Having a horn doesn't matter, the model needs to be a horn blower (granted, this comes from having an instrument on the model).

"Models in this unit may carry banners" - a model may carry a banner and the banner is what adds the benefit.

Neither is a compulsory inclusion in the unit in any case.

It also (RAW) doesn't say the skalg or horn blower can't take a banner. But it also (RAW) doesn't say that a model can't be both a skalg and a horn blower.

For me I think this is a Rules-As-Intended reading over a RAW reading. I think it's a natural growth from the "wording insanity" that AoS seems to be generating as it grows in the competitive environment - that is there are smart people (perhaps with much too much time on their hands - like me some days!) poring over these rules and trying to see exactly what is and isn't allowed.

The spirit of the thing is more important.

Models are sculpted to be 1 of 4 (like old WHFB): troop or command (champion, musician, banner bearer). I think that's how it is intended.

Edit/ note that the weapons they carry are a different thing - you can model gargant hackers on any of the 4 even if the skalg, banner bearer and horn blower models come with 1 h blades.

 

[HeadHunter]

Thanks.  Yes, that was my understanding as well.  There's no doubt that the leader must be a Skalg, and it seems pretty clear that a Skalg cannot be a horn blower.  But the banner almost sounds like something either of them could also carry.

To avoid any disputes, I'm going to run packs of 4 whenever possible and just make each a separate role.  I think of all the units in a Beastclaw army, this seems like the most effective and solid unit.  It may not be as punchy or tough as a mammoth but it's got mobility and tactical flexibility.

[Throst]

On 26/01/2017 at 5:08 PM, HeadHunter said:

As for the Blood Vulture, you don't ever have to pick one of your own untis, right?  You pick an enemy unit and the enemy picks one of their own, is that correct?  I'm trying to decide if one 50/50 mortal wound is better than 3 targeted regular wounds.

Yeah that's pretty much how I read it