Xasz Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 43 minutes ago, Killax said: Violent Urgency Khorne Mortal abiltiy... but at least it is comparable to the GA: Chaos + Firestorm 43 minutes ago, Killax said: Talisman of Burning Blood Same + not gonna affect any turn except the first one. (and rarely played) 43 minutes ago, Killax said: Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster Not a reroll. 43 minutes ago, Killax said: Bloodsecrator + Bloodstoker As you pointed out, no one will ever use the special banners and for the later, same as WoKBT The topic was, Grand Alliance Chaos abilities + Firestorm, which is interesting for certain lists. The fact still stands that this might not be as thrilling for mortal armies as it is for daemon armies. Simply because the Firestorm ability is redundant to the MLoK's ability, which is technically not a reroll but comparable (it's actually slightly better than a reroll, for a couple of reasons) Most of the readers here are well aware of the contents of BoK and ever so often the things you point out have little to do with the discussion at hand. I think for a full Murderhost GA: Chaos abilities might be the way to go with Firestorm. For everything else, I'd probably default to khorne abilities at the moment. Reason being, mortals and Gore Pilgrims are often the foundation of a list, especially around here as most active posters in this thread seem to have a mortal army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uveron Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 13 minutes ago, Xasz said: The topic was, Grand Alliance Chaos abilities + Firestorm, which is interesting for certain lists. The fact still stands that this might not be as thrilling for mortal armies as it is for daemon armies. Simply because the Firestorm ability is redundant to the MLoK's ability, which is technically not a reroll but comparable (it's actually slightly better than a reroll, for a couple of reasons) Most of the readers here are well aware of the contents of BoK and ever so often the things you point out have little to do with the discussion at hand. I think for a full Murderhost GA: Chaos abilities might be the way to go with Firestorm. For everything else, I'd probably default to khorne abilities at the moment. Reason being, mortals and Gore Pilgrims are often the foundation of a list, especially around here as most active posters in this thread seem to have a mortal army. Was the Topic "Grand Alliance Chaos abilities + Firestorm", you finsihed your last post posing the question with "Aspecially as daemons don't have easy access to charge buffs" which does open it up to allot more, hence Killax's respones.. But anyway. The reasons mortals and gore pilgrims are the foundation of disscussion is that there are vastly more Khorne Mortal units. A demon based list, is strong is built around a Murderhost and then supported by mortals if you want to keep pure khorne. Sadly that is the sandbox we have to use, and its been an issue that has followed mono-god daemon lists for decades. The Khorne Alliance is fun because it lets you build a workable army that is mono-god even if its a mix of Mortals and Daemons. I will also add that mono-god mortal armies have nearly always been workable, unlike daemons but that is due to the flexibility of marks on legacy units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xasz Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 One thing from last page, that's been bugging me for a while as well, Valkia still has no daemon keyword... She's an actual daemon princess, old fluff as well as AoS. I get why it made sense giving her the mortal keyword due to the KBB book but models are gaining keywords through their mounts left and right and she's still just a mortal. :[ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 45 minutes ago, Xasz said: Khorne Mortal abiltiy... but at least it is comparable to the GA: Chaos + Firestorm Same + not gonna affect any turn except the first one. (and rarely played) Not a reroll. As you pointed out, no one will ever use the special banners and for the later, same as WoKBT The topic was, Grand Alliance Chaos abilities + Firestorm, which is interesting for certain lists. The fact still stands that this might not be as thrilling for mortal armies as it is for daemon armies. Simply because the Firestorm ability is redundant to the MLoK's ability, which is technically not a reroll but comparable (it's actually slightly better than a reroll, for a couple of reasons) Most of the readers here are well aware of the contents of BoK and ever so often the things you point out have little to do with the discussion at hand. I think for a full Murderhost GA: Chaos abilities might be the way to go with Firestorm. For everything else, I'd probably default to khorne abilities at the moment. Reason being, mortals and Gore Pilgrims are often the foundation of a list, especially around here as most active posters in this thread seem to have a mortal army. I really don't think you have the right impression if you think it's relevant to point out X or Y is Mortal, the moment you run a Khorne army there is absolutely no reason to not run a mix of Mortal, Bloodbound and Daemon, as long as it has the Khorne Keyword. All the Bloodbound Heroes are also Mortal so the moment a mix is made the Command Trait becomes very easy to use. In addition the relevant question here is how do you see 7 improved charge choices as a few? The same question can be asked how you even see 'not a reroll' as a relevant statement? You can run and charge both, adding 1 to both. This means your movement is affected by 3D6+2". Though if you want to switch the subject to Grand Allegiance Chaos + Fist of the Everchosen that's fine too. To me personally the additional Bravery is nice but becomes rather redundant in the early turns. As Rage of Khorne also makes us immume to Battleshock and Bravery 10 rarely ever needs to be at 12. The re-rolled failed charge rolls are certainly not bad but due to the many 8" effects we have in terms of this (just for Daemons) it rarely every is required. The moment a Mighty Lord of Khorne is added with enough Mortal units we're even missing out on less. Which is all if we want to have Heroes 6"near our units in the first place. So the question then would become if we'd want to switch the Khorne Allegiance to the Chaos Grand Allegiance and really unless we're running an army without sufficient Khorne units I really don't see the merrit in it. - Unpredictable Destruction is as nice as your General is still around, something Khorne Keyword heavy armies in general can't ensure. - Command Traits for Chaos are all cool, same for Khorne's. - Artefacts for Chaos are worse as Khorne's. - Failure is not an option is nice but the ability is allready found in typical Khorne armies. So if anything to me it continues to feel like we're handing in Blood Tithe and gaining Unpredictable Destruction, it can be done, at 1K I'd certainly consider it, at 2K I don't see the difference as being too massive. The moment a mixed Chaos army is played I do think this adds a very cool ability but also at the cost of internal (Khorne) synergy. The real question to me boils down to not wanting to play Khorne Allegiance, which is a certain option with Fist of the Everchosen but I still don't see it all being relevant enough to trade in several of the Khorne Artefacts for worse alternatives. 8 minutes ago, Xasz said: One thing from last page, that's been bugging me for a while as well, Valkia still has no daemon keyword... She's an actual daemon princess, old fluff as well as AoS. I get why it made sense giving her the mortal keyword due to the KBB book but models are gaining keywords through their mounts left and right and she's still just a mortal. :[ Khorne is odd in that way, as per previous page, the Juggerlord should also have it all things considered and the same indeed applies to the Mighty Lord with Flesh Hound too. It is what it is, it isn't really needed though, enough viable choices in Blades of Khorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uveron Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 12 minutes ago, Xasz said: One thing from last page, that's been bugging me for a while as well, Valkia still has no daemon keyword... She's an actual daemon princess, old fluff as well as AoS. I get why it made sense giving her the mortal keyword due to the KBB book but models are gaining keywords through their mounts left and right and she's still just a mortal. :[ Indeed, I think there is a good list of Leaders that it would be good to have made deamons. Skarr Bloodwrath, LoK on Jugger, You could even go as far to say that Skullreapers and Wrathmongers are pushing the line when you look at the sculpts. But again this is true for the whole chaos line, and Iam sure we can find a host of other units that should have the keyword. But a good amount of that appears to come from GW changing its mind on how its going to organise the chaos faction. At the launch of AOS I think the plan was to make a mono-god army for each god and give out key words based on that hence the 'Bloodbound', but then it was decided that all the gods stuff should be together (probably inspired by the success of KDK). I suspect within the next 3 years we see another khorne book that changes it again, pushing the units closer together... or dividing them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 1 minute ago, Uveron said: Indeed, I think there is a good list of Leaders that it would be good to have made deamons. Skarr Bloodwrath, LoK on Jugger, You could even go as far to say that Skullreapers and Wrathmongers are pushing the line when you look at the sculpts. But again this is true for the whole chaos line, and Iam sure we can find a host of other units that should have the keyword. But a good amount of that appears to come from GW changing its mind on how its going to organise the chaos faction. At the launch of AOS I think the plan was to make a mono-god army for each god and give out key words based on that 'hence the Bloodbound', but then it was decided that all the gods stuff should be together (probably inspired by the success of KDK). I suspect within the next 3 years we see another khorne book that changes it again, pushing the units closer together... or dividing them again. Yeah Im very happy to see the Sub-sub-Factions dissapear. I really don't mind the Sub-Factions (such as Khorne) but splitting it up more for Keywords is allright but doesn't comfortably work out as a full army . Things could be worse though, Death as a whole Grand Allegiance massively suffers from the Sub-sub-Faction design. Thing is that I believe Age of Sigmar was indeed first intended to be designed as a Order, Chaos, Destruction and Death split up. It wasn't until the Sub-factions got their own Allegiance that Ally rules had to be created etc. For us there is little to no issue though. Enough reasons to run a Daemon, Mortal or Bloodbound Hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uveron Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Changing the Topic slightly! 5 minutes ago, Killax said: So if anything to me it continues to feel like we're handing in Blood Tithe and gaining Unpredictable Destruction, it can be done, at 1K I'd certainly consider it, at 2K I don't see the difference as being too massive. The moment a mixed Chaos army is played I do think this adds a very cool ability but also at the cost of internal (Khorne) synergy. I am just getting into AOS with my Khorne forces. I have been a death player on and off for last few years, but the new 40k hasn't made me happy so for the last few months i have caught the AOS bug, listened to every podcasts I can find and spent a good 12 hours a day reading this forum. I have just started running an escalation league for my local gaming club, (the story of that can be found on my blog, along with posts about my BoK army). But I have been struggling to decided weather to use the BOK aliange from the word go? (750 size games). I think sub 1500pts it appears i will get more out of Unpredictable Destruction that blood tithe, and a daemon prince of Khorne with the Deamon weapon will put out quite a few mortal wounds... but I suppose the question is: Does any of the artifacts in the BoK book make it worth taking the allegiance at small point games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 @Uveron I think there are two Artefacts for Daemon Princes in particular that can make it worth it at lower levels. Those being the Mark of the Slayer and The Crimson Crown. - Mark of the Slayer presents a 8" bubble of re-rolling 1's to hit and 1's to wound. This in essence boils down to what you hope to happen with Unpredictable Destruction. In addition it works on any Khorne unit so the internal synergy is there. - The Crimson Crown doubles up it's worth extremely fast the moment you run sufficient Bloodletter units. With it they will not only guarantee Mortal Wounds on hits, they get full additional attacks, possibly leading to another Mortal Wound. To me this is the prime reason to play Bloodthirsters and pretty much ensures that as long as the Artefact is around Bloodletters and Bloodthirsters are capable of massively outpushing their cost in terms of damage. In addition it also means the back of the list isn't broken with the absence of the Bloodsecrator. As before though a lot of Khorne's powerful army choices include Bloodletters, another reason that could be added would be Slaughterpriest who also only gain acces to their Prayers thanks to Khorne Allegiance. So what is "better" really depends on the complete list. The moment any Khorne army contains a lot of Bloodletters I can almost guarantee the Khorne Allegiance choice becomes the best choice as they only cost 270 for 30 and we have tons of ways to make them dish out insane ammounts of Mortal Wounds. Likely the most of any horde infantry unit in the game. In general though the best choice has to be put into context, so feel free to post your list or plans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uveron Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 @Killax Thanks for the advice. My current list looks like this == Leaders Aspiring Deathbringer – General: Command Traits: Great Destroyer - (Bloodaxe and Wrath Hammer) Bloodsecrator Daemon Prince - Deamonic Axe, Wings. Artefacts: Daemon Weapon. Units 40 x Chaos Marauders – Axes and Shields. Mark of Khorne. 5 x Blood Warriors – Goreaxes and gorefists 10 x Chaos Warhounds == Its using the standard Chaos Traits, and is an evolution of a list I have been testing for a bit. I have been using some Bloodcrushers, Bloodletters (20), and a Bloodmaster. In place of the Hounds, warriors and Daemon Prince. But I wasn't as impressed with them. and I felt my list needed more rend. Hence the inclusion of the Prince. The Blood Warriors haven't been tested yet I hope to find synergy with the Aspiring Deathbringer. The list of models I have at my disposal can be found here The Cohort of Bloodied Brass: An Introduction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 @Uveron seems like at this level I'd certainly stick with either the Grand Allegiance Chaos As the previous discussion revolving around Blood Tithe, the difference becomes obvious when enough points are around and it becomes functionally possible to obtain enough Blood Tithe points as an extra throughout the game. In very short the bonus from Chaos and Slaves to Darkness is generated from the Heroes, that for Khorne applies eventually to all units. One of the reasons as to why this change works works out well for me is because our Heroes are Key pieces anyway, so any Allegiance bonus that also revolves around the same Hero makes it only more obvious our opponent has to thake out those Heroes first. The advantage we have with Blood Tithe is that if opponents go that route it also is an easy and quick accumulation of Blood Tithe points. At 2K I see this as presenting a more difficult choice to my opponent, where with other Allegiances the Hero destruction gets rewarded in multiple ways, including removing the Allegiance bonus altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uveron Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 @killax Thanks for the advice. While I still have the thread.. what would you add as I increase the size of the league (750/1000/1250/1500/1750/2000). I have the following in my collection: Khornate Demon Prince 20 Blood Letters 1 Skullcannon 1 Khornate Soul Grinder 2 Bloodmasters 3 Skullcrushers 1 Chaos Sorcerer Lord (Allie) 40 Chaos Marauders 3 Bullgors (allies) 10 warhounds (allies) 1 Bloodsecrator 5 Bloodwarriors 30 Blood Reavers 1 Korgrath 1 Mighty Lord of Khorne 1 Blood Stoker Thanks! My current plan is to add the Bullgores next, for more rending attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 @Uveron Well always feel free to ask or suggest anything! The discussion is wonderful. For the 750 to 2000 point growth I'd start out with your 750 base, add 270/220 (30/20 Bloodletters). Followed by upgrading the 5 Blood Warriors to 10 and adding 3 Skullcrushers. For 1500 to 2000 I'd certainly suggest adding either another unit of 10 Blood Warriors or 30 Bloodletters and/or 5 Wrathmongers with a Bloodstoker. At 1500+ it is also time to re-consider Allegiances as the Khorne Artefacts with those numbers can make a huge difference. The true question offcourse is how much you want to become a Khorne army and thus recieve all the benifits that come with it . Adding multiple units without the Khorne Keyword means less targets for Heroes like the Mighty Lord of Khorne, Bloodsecrator and Bloodstoker. As before, I still believe the prime strenght of our army comes from our Infantry numbers and we have the pieces who support those numbers. Examples of MLoK's, KLoJ's and BT's functioning well are often found in a list that has those 3 significant Mortal or Daemon units. So personally I believe in that route lies the most power. Khorne unlike some factions doesn't really need much more non-Khorne allies and one of the reasons as to why I feel this way is because the Daemon, Slaves to Darkness and Bloodbound Warscroll ranges basically have everything covered except strong long range attacks but the advantage we have instead comes in the sheer ludacris ammount of attacks we can generate! So on the same Artefact subject again, Khorne has the Artefacts to make the game difference. A Mighty Lord of Khorne or non-general Exalted Deathbringer with Mark of the Destroyer makes a significant game impact for their costs. A Slaughterpriest with Talisman of Burning Blood is exactly where he needs to be and more often than not can buff two key Infantry units. Then we have several Daemonic choises that trump most Command Traits and Artefacts in the game by improving whatever chance you want. Be it for additional attacks, improved hit and wound or straight up damage. There is a big difference in doing D3 damage versus D3+1, the latter translates to 2-4 damage and that's exactly where a Monster wants to be. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Also, congrats @Dan.Ford! Would love to hear a battle report and your opinion of your Chaos/Khorne army. Offcourse any other Khorne players who where at the event are very welcome to share their coverage too Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uveron Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 24 minutes ago, Killax said: For the 750 to 2000 point growth I'd start out with your 750 base, add 270/220 (30/20 Bloodletters). Followed by upgrading the 5 Blood Warriors to 10 and adding 3 Skullcrushers. For 1500 to 2000 I'd certainly suggest adding either another unit of 10 Blood Warriors or 30 Bloodletters and/or 5 Wrathmongers with a Bloodstoker. At 1500+ it is also time to re-consider Allegiances as the Khorne Artefacts with those numbers can make a huge difference. Thanks for the Advice! Adding Bloodletters sound like a good plan at 1000... After than I will need to see what my fiances are like for getting new models. Going to try get my hands on the start collecting bloodbound box asap, and a final 10 letters. Iam thinking of trying the soul grinder + Bloodstoker at somepoint as I think there may be a combo there which will give me some range options. (and if I become flush with cash I want to invest in some ungor allies with bows as that could be fun to splash in, but that depends a lot on work and the size of my paychecks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louzi Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Killax said: Also, congrats @Dan.Ford! Would love to hear a battle report and your opinion of your Chaos/Khorne army. Offcourse any other Khorne players who where at the event are very welcome to share their coverage too Cheers! Do we know the lists of Pano and Slawek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easytyger Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 7 hours ago, Louzi said: Do we know the lists of Pano and Slawek? Yeah I was wondering if Pano used a list similar to the Bloodbound list he used at Blackout. And definitely congrats to @Dan.Ford for continuing his successful campaign of terror for the Blood God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titus Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 On 6-10-2017 at 4:14 PM, Killax said: Yes a unit should be able to run that way. Keep in mind though that if it does it cannot shoot or charge later that turn, as per Running rules. Which can matter as this is all resolved in the Hero phase. Though if you are indeed able to use it early on or for objective purposes you could indeed just use it to run to my knowledge. Thank you, i was thinking the same but my opponent was a bit salty to see my bloodthirster moving 10 + 1D6 (hero phase) & 10 + 1D6 (movement phase) to capture an objective in the last turn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 @Louzi any additional information would be welcome I'll try and search for it aswell. At the same time though I also believe that especially with AoS the player makes much more of a difference as the actual list. This really boils down to knowing how to face list A to Z, many of which have their own unique set of powers that can catch the unaware. We have some great battle reports from larger events and that's actually a big make or break for most players. What the list indeed does decide is if you can roll with other Tier 1 lists, meaning you present usually enough Mortal wounds still and speed or teleportation. Which sounds a bit easy but actually is still quite unique to certain Factions.@Titus Still makes sence to me! As before people are always free to feel salty but in reality Blood Tithe is one of the most fair additional rules one could think of. The main reason I say this is that it rewards good play. Which is also why it's more difficult to use as your average Battle Trait. Indirectly this is also why it doesn't work well at 500 to 1000 as in almost all of those list cases it becomes more of a sub-game in hunting down the single key Hero and being able to awnser the single key Unit. Playing well at those levels is a factor but not as much as in 2000, logically it plays half the factor On the topic of the Bloodthirsters though, the prime reason Ive started to include them more than ever also comes from the exact tactical flexability you describe. We do not have a lot of Flying pieces and because of that a Bloodthirster can really make the difference in the later stages of the game. It has the movement flexability that simply said is great. In many ways the same is true for a Chaos Lord on Manticore and if I ever feel inclined to play more Slaves to Darkness units I'd certainly include him aswell. There is really nothing wrong with any General Bloodthirster provided he's tooled up right. He does die to ranged fire if your opponent went heavy enough on it but at the same time those strategies have become a whole lot more costly aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misthv Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Would love to see some of the lists from the latest tournament! Especially those GA Chaos ones...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gertat Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Next 2000 points list I’m going to field and test out Love big daemons/monsters Thought is to run all Korgoraths as 5 singel units ahead as a screen Move the flyers behind them When the Korgorath slams into the opponents screen to fly over with the monsters and take out the opponents key modells The reavers is to take objectives May not be the best but Oh so fun Allegiance: Khorne LeadersWrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (330)- GeneralBloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (260)Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (260)Battleline20 x Bloodreavers (140)- Reaver Blades20 x Bloodreavers (140)- Reaver Blades20 x Bloodreavers (140)- Reaver BladesUnits1 x Khorgoraths (80)1 x Khorgoraths (80)1 x Khorgoraths (80)1 x Khorgoraths (80)1 x Khorgoraths (80)BehemothsChimera (220)- AlliesBattalionsCouncil of Blood (110)Reinforcement Points (0)Total: 2000 / 2000Allies: 220 / 400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 @gertat lovely! That list screams Skaarac though!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uveron Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 @gertat I know you dont have the models for it probably... but I would think about running Marauders as your battleline.. and then add a bloodstoker, to buff the Khorgorath unit! Or also maybe swap the chimeria for a soul grinder, as getting some shooting attacks on the table is always welcome. but they are just my crazed idears, Looks like a very fun list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gertat Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Uveron said: @gertat I know you dont have the models for it probably... but I would think about running Marauders as your battleline.. and then add a bloodstoker, to buff the Khorgorath unit! Or also maybe swap the chimeria for a soul grinder, as getting some shooting attacks on the table is always welcome. but they are just my crazed idears, Looks like a very fun list. Yep I’m with you but dont have the modells as you hint at But about the Chimera it has a ranged attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gertat Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, Killax said: @gertat lovely! That list screams Skaarac though!! Yes but the modell is so so expensive Have thought about it since your/our last post about Khorgoraths And I have 3 Bloodthirsters alredy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uveron Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, gertat said: Yep I’m with you but dont have the modells as you hint at But about the Chimera it has a ranged attack Yep! My mistake! Just checked the warscoll for it and yes thats a powerful beast. Just wish I liked the model a little more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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