Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[MunchkinX2000]

21 hours ago, Dragonlover said:

Dark Feast is nice at 500 btw, if you ever find yourself playing a game that small.

Dragonlover

We are doing a local slowgrow AoS league and I was thinking about starting with the bare minimum Dark Feast:
- Slaughterpriest
- Bloodstoker
- 10 Bloodreavers
- 10 Bloodreavers
- 10 Bloodreavers

Now.. Im not sure what the "spirit" of the league is yet so I would rather not take a full on "filth" list.
How hard is this list? Im really not that competetive and rather have good games then crush my opponents.

(Dont tell Khorne I said that last bit... Please)

[Jharen]

25 minutes ago, MunchkinX2000 said:

We are doing a local slowgrow AoS league and I was thinking about starting with the bare minimum Dark Feast:
- Slaughterpriest
- Bloodstoker
- 10 Bloodreavers
- 10 Bloodreavers
- 10 Bloodreavers

Now.. Im not sure what the "spirit" of the league is yet so I would rather not take a full on "filth" list.
How hard is this list? Im really not that competetive and rather have good games then crush my opponents.

(Dont tell Khorne I said that last bit... Please)

Really it depends on how many points you're working with for the league (assuming your group is even using points).

I think Darkfeast is going to struggle once you hit 1000 point sized games simply because the bulk of your force is very easily vaporized without much effort.   Seeing as you plan on growing your force over time it'd be a good idea to look at where you want to build to in the long run.  Some ideas would be to look at the battalions in the book and find something you want to build into even if you don't plan on running it at the beginning of your league.   Do you plan on going heavy into bloodreavers in the future?  Do you plan on leaning more towards Bloodwarriors?  Juggernauts?  Bloodletters?  Do you have a theme you're aiming for?

Over the past few pages of this thread there's been many great posts by members of this forum on various tactics using various battalions from the Blades of Khorne.  I'd highly suggest reading back through some of them to get an idea on what can be done and how to play Khorne armies.  @Killax has also made posts in these forums breaking down the new book and his review of the new abilities we have available to us.  You can find the thread HERE

 

[Dragonlover]

What Jharen said. Assuming you're starting from scratch, the obvious progression from Dark Feast is Gore Pilgrims. On the other hand, if your eventual aim is something without quite so many Bloodreavers, you might want to try something different at the lower levels.

How slow is slow grow? 250 point chunks?

Also Dark Feast is fine power wise. Plenty of dudes, plenty of attacks, but you notice it when you lose guys.

Dragonlover

[Killax]

I don't think anyone who's deep enough into the game would complain with such a list @MunchkinX2000, It's a nice start but everybody can beat up Bloodreavers so it's also in it's current form quite a glass cannon, so run it I'd say.

As a rule of tumb and I think many would agree is that Khorne is in a very nice place where you can equally consider anything for 1K and 2K. So even while I would be less inclined to run a Aspiring Deathrbinger as my General, the option is there and it certainly isn't 'bad'.

So far the only two Units that I really have difficulties with applying in semi-competative or just 'good lists' are Bloodcrushers and Skullgrinders.
- By large because the Bloodcrushers are just largely not Skullcrushers whilst having that same cost (1 less wound, 1 less attack matters a lot. You do gain a possible bonus to Battleshock but then you'd still have to own more models, roll that 1 and hope you'll stick around in the first place).
- Skullgrinders are a real 'don't know what to do with them' for me because we have so many excellent Hero choices at 80 points now. Bloodsecrator, Aspiring Deathrbinger, Exalted Deathbringer and Bloodmaster are all very worthy considerations especially if you are at lower point levels and they'll have easier acces to Artefacts. Even at the 2K levels where they become part of Battalions there remains a really good reason to equip them with Artefacts. I just love Brazen Rune for these guys aswell as an automatic dispell.
It is a whole lot easier to obtain as going deep into points with Slaughterpriest, Gore Pilgrims and Bloodreavers to Bloodsacrifice  which for a lack of better words is going to be a focal point of every army and does not fit the personal threat saturation and spreading tactic I really like for Khorne Armies.

However even these models are excellent models to have and use for conversions. One of my 3 Bloodcrushers will become the Skullmaster, which I love and the Skullgrinder will be converted as part for a Skullcrusher champion  The blending of Skullreaper/Wrathmonger bodies into Skullcrushers easily allows you to incorporate all new Khorne models into the slightly older Skullcrusher models. 

[Jharen]

The only way I would suggest running Dark Feast in a game that small is if you put a Bloodsecrator in there with it.  Putting your Bloodreavers only extra attacks in the hands of a 5+ save Slaughterpriest is very VERY risky and I fear you may find yourself making 1 attack each with most your bloodreavers and doing next to nothing in terms of damage.

[Dragonlover]

You can't physically fit the Bloodsecrator in. Minimum Dark Feast is 490.

Dragonlover

[Killax]

9 hours ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

Violent Urgency is, in my opinion, as good a buff as Gorelord. You trade range for the amount of units that could be affected by it, and I think rerolling charges is better than rolling three ones. Having the Aspiring Deathbringer use that command trait in unison with burning a tithe to activate Gorelord would be incredibly nasty. 

Most other Hero's as Generals are either too expensive, too ineffective, or too much of a lynch pin to the list that if they fall, things are bound to fall apart around them. If the Aspiring Deathbring dies, you're only out 80 points and some force multiplication and support that your list wasn't built up around anyways. He's just an all around solid pick when given Mark of the Destroyer, Violent Urgency, and stuck behind a unit like 'reavers that most people write off as being angry shirtless men. 

/List

This list (made up of models in my immediate collection) is not lacking in speed or movement, has numerous synergies that are not inherently attached to one unit, has a huge number of models to weather beatings, and lets a cheap General like the Deathbringer shine. 

I think we largely agree on the most parts! So I skipped some of the parts where we see the same tactic applied to succes  

In regards to Violent Urgency vs Gorelord. I personally still pick Gorelord over it, or Blood Stampede for that matter. The reasoning behind this is extremely simple. 24" beats 6" by a lot. Affecting 3 units opposed to 1, maby 2 is a lot. Most importantly of all, it does not require my General to baby-sit other units because 24" is half my side of the table. 
Additionally as a statistical example for Gorelord, rolling 3 dice and removing the lowest is statistically better as re-rolling 2 dice. One improves your statistical average (3 dice, remove 1) the other brings you closer to the statistical average (2 dice, option to re-roll). Again affecting Units with Gorelord is a hell easier to do than affecting Units with re-rolled charges. 
- Violent Urgency is 8" range, vastly inferior to Gorelord's 24" (and 3 units)
- Banner of Blood is 8" range, vastly inferior to Gorelord's 24" (and 3 units)

My moral remains, disregarding Mighty Lord of Khorne is just not something I can endorse for a competative game. There is a 60 point cost difference and in return of that you get an additional wound, two additional bravery, a 3+  save, the 'perfect' 3+/3+/-1/D3 that can also quite easily turn into a complete Monster elimination the moment you start to tinker with his attacks due Mark of the Destroyer and other buffs granted by Bloodsecrators. 
On top of all that you have a bigger base size to work with and Collar of Khorne. 

The list looks good, not having to pick Violent Urgency because of Gorelord still works in my personal favour. 140 points with Disciple of Khorne and Mark of the Destroyer cranks up the Mighty Lord of Khorne to a grand total of 18 attacks by himself and that most certainly carries 140 points around.
The thing with the AD is that in practice his synergies are largely applied to one unit due to his own base size and 6"/8" effect ranges.
Cheers, 

 

[MunchkinX2000]

The only way I would suggest running Dark Feast in a game that small is if you put a Bloodsecrator in there with it.  Putting your Bloodreavers only extra attacks in the hands of a 5+ save Slaughterpriest is very VERY risky and I fear you may find yourself making 1 attack each with most your bloodreavers and doing next to nothing in terms of damage.

500p game wont fit anything else.
Will need to think about my options then

Thx to both of you.

Lähetetty minun PLK-L01 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[Killax]

11 minutes ago, MunchkinX2000 said:

 

500p game wont fit anything else.
Will need to think about my options then

Thx to both of you.

Lähetetty minun PLK-L01 laitteesta Tapatalkilla
 

 

Especially for 500 points I'd also consider not thaking any Battalion. 80 points are a lot on that level. I don't always think that you get the same value out of a Battalion at 500 points as say out of a Aspiring Deathbringer, Bloodstoker or another Bloodreaver unit. Unless your forced to? Also with what kind of steps will the army progress?

The more that Battalion cost can be spreaded into the army, giving out multiple bonusses for a relatively lower cost per unit, the better the Battalion becomes. As an example, The Goretide can be great but becomes a whole lot more costly to play if you do suddenly want to include Bloodthirsters, Bloodletters or Skullcannons, simply because those Units do not gain any bonus from your 120 point investment.

 

[Collyc]

I have left my Atherstrike SC's behind and got lured by the Bloodgod !!

Have a local Comp coming up soon and in the middle of painting the list below.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Chaos
Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (280)
- General
- Trait: Slaughterborn 
- Artefact: Harvester of Skulls 
Wrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (360)
- Artefact: Mark of the slayer 
Bloodthirster Of Unfettered Fury (300)
- Artefact: The Crimson Crown 
Bloodmaster, Herald of Khorne (80)
Bloodmaster, Herald of Khorne (80)
10 x Bloodletters (100)
10 x Bloodletters (100)
10 x Bloodletters (100)
10 x Bloodletters (100)
10 x Bloodletters (100)
10 x Bloodletters (100)
10 x Bloodletters (100)
10 x Bloodletters (100)
Council of Blood (80)
Murderhost (20)

Total: 2000/2000

 

My Question would be, is it better to Run Harvester of Skulls on the BT or should I be running A'rgath and getting him into hero's. The whole idea of my list is getting first turn and moving the whole center of the army  4d6 towards the enemy line....I really don't have a plan B

[Killax]

@Collyc that list looks great and very competative. I think your better off not running An'ggrath in this case. It's an all in plan but a decent one for sure.
Since I have something planned not too differently from what you sketched up I will say that if your willing to only run 1 Bloodthirster and multiple units of 30 Bloodletters you can easily find the points for Bloodsecrators and even a single Bloodstoker. What this does do is remove the Bloodmasters and go for a Blood Throne or Skullmaster for the Crimson Crown. Though the prime advantage you have there is the speed + all of the attacks in the world. 
The downside of that is not running with Council of Blood  So do as you please!

[Adasi]

Hi,

Having spent a chunk of time reading up on a lot of pages i thought i'd throw in my thoughts based on my recent games.

I really loved the idea of the council of blood when i first got my hands on the book and have tried it with Skarbrand and without Skarbrand. This list has evolved quite a bit and i'm now realising that the Gore Pilgrim formation is actually what i can see an army being built around.

I don't believe that BoK is high on the power curve at all! The meta at the moment (and honestly; the core rules) favour shooting over CC so much. Being able to split fire, shoot into and out of combat and the double turn essentially encourages gunlines and with so much Sylvaneth, Tzeentch, mixed order, Beastclaw, Kunnin Rukk and now Karadron Overlords around i've found i'm getting tabled bottom of round two no matter what.

The list i was using was:

Quote

 

Wrath of Khorne BT
Insensate Rage BT
Unfettered Fury BT
Bloodsecrator
Slaughterpriest
Slaughterpriest

10 Reavers
5 Blood Warriors
30 Bloodletters

Gore Pilgrims
Council of Blood

 

The last six games can be summed up quickly

Game 1: vs Pete Scholey's Mixed Order SCGT list. Included 30 Handgunners, 6 Kurnoth Hunters, Hurricanum, Generqal on Griffon. I got shot to shreds by round 2. Result: HEAVY loss!

Game 2: vs Nick Nunn's Mixed Chaos list (but mostly skaven). Won on scenario (Border War) despite extreme losses. Can only really take the win due to him being very new to the game and not realising he could've been shooting my bloodsecrator with the WLC's instead of my letters. Result: Major Win (but very Pyrrhic)

Game 3: vs Colin Mather's Wanderers list. Expected to get shot off silly. I did...but won on scenario (3 places of power) JUST! More due to his inexperienct using his list and poor deployment. I wouldn't expect this to happen again. The Glade Guard used their once per game ability to kill one BT. The Hails of doom whittled down the Bloodletters and then i managed to scavenge the odd scenario point!

Game 4: (Tournament) vs Andy Hughes Sylvaneth. Got utterly slaughtered! What wasn't alpha charged by 6 scythes out of free woods on turn one was finished off by the kurnoth hunters. Not a great game and felt utterly helpless!

Game 5: (Tournament) vs (forgot name doh!)'s Kunnin Rukk Bonesplittaz. Had a chance in this game die to my opponent forgetting to fire the Rukk in his second hero phase. he did not forget again and i got tabled utterly and completely!

Game 6: (Tournament) vs William JC's Spiderfang Grots (3 places of power). It came down to the alpha strike and who got it first...i did...and manage dot table him in 2 turns. Council of Blood finally shone as did the insensate rage BT.

 

Thoughts:

1. Council of Blood isn't worth it competitively. As much as i want to bring three BT's they're still overpriced and incredibly weak without a 3+ save
2. The blood tithe table is ****** when you have a small number of units. It's like it was a design choice to encourage you to take MSU
3. Gore Pilgrims is great (took me till after the tournament to realise i could cast their new prayer AND their old prayer! Dayumn!

So...the list has now evolved into:

Quote

 

Bloodsecrator
Slaughterpriest
Slaughterpriest
Slaughterpriest
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster
Bloodstoker

5x Blood Warriors
10 Bloodreavers
10 Bloodreavers
6 Mighty Skullcrushers
30 Bloodletters
5 Wrathmongers

Gore Pilgrims

 

Idea now being that the letters can be whipped and recieve the BT command ability to enable them to run +4" and charge +4" on first turn, buffed by the slaughterpriests (i'm thinking 2 have +1 to hit and one has +1AS) to enable a horrible alpha.

The wrathmongers are still the suicide squad and fulfill the role of jamming a big bad thing into killing itself.

The skullcrushers get the +1AS buff and tie up a unit or cosume board space

I think i might make one of the priest have the blood tithe spell to help build that up quicker and sacrifice the bloodreavers!

 

There...thoughts. Sorry for very long post!

 

Adam

[Collyc]

@Killax Thanks for the advice, I really want to try Council of Blood so will stick to that for now.

I have a few practice games coming up so I will see how it preforms. 

[Killax]

@Adasi Fantastic write up man, great read! First of all, let me say that (and this is one of the reasons why I got so deep into the Bloodsecrator discussion some weeks ago) SCGT does a swell job not making Blades of Khorne function as it was likely intended  In that same vein, great as the SCGT House-rules are, they do some great restrictions but essentially leave Missle Attacks "unrestricted" so for me the prime reason as to why we see ranged attacks be so heavily influincing the meta on SCGT House-rule like events is because this is the prime unrestricted rule in their otherwise wonderfully restricted set of House-rules.
- Melee attacks are allready quite limited
- Spells are allready quite limited
- Summoning is allready quite limited
- Abilities stacking with SCGT House-rules become limited
- Prayers (Blood Blessings) with SCGT House-rules become limited
So yeah... Being rolled by Missle Attacks at that point should not come at any suprise. We cannot stack Rage of Khorne there, we cannot have multiple Bronzed Flesh blessings and the mayority of our threat saturation strategies do not work well because they involve taking the same model thus ability at least twice. 

With that out of the way  Your lists!

I think Council of Blood can still work out well, but I would be inclined to run it 'for the cheap'. This also very likely means I wouldn't run another Battalion next to it. From my perspective two Bloodthirster of IR, one of UF are the max you can go whilst still having it for a decent price. Though in general, I also still believe that Blades of Khorne Heroes offer us the most power in supporting large Infantry blocks. Bloodthirsters are not that difficult to kill.

I largely agree with you that the Blood Tithe rewards become less good with fewer units. MSU is optional, FBU would work out aswell provided you can speed it up enough. For me the key strategy in trying to win a tournament with BoK would come from Murderhost or Brass Stampede. Both maxed. Both at least containing 2 Bloodsecrators still.

Lastly I really like the look of your new list. It seems a whole lot more solid and despite the awesomeness Bloodthirsters provide, I do believe that our General Bloodthirster is great but the others do require Battalions and this means that 2 feel like the functional limit for 2K anyway. Bloodthirsters without Artefacts are just not the type of Monster we can support well. 
- Also consider using a Slaughterborn Bloodthirster of IR with just Harvester of Skulls. It opens up 80 points and considering you have 20 points left would mean you could go max 2K and have 10 Blood Warriors instead of those 5. To me this seems better. Because you increase threat saturation again. 

Cheers,
 

[Adasi]

aye good advice i guess. the WoK BT is important for the command ability to allow the letters to run and charge and give +1" to both though

[Aspirant Snaeper]

3 hours ago, Killax said:

I think we largely agree on the most parts! So I skipped some of the parts where we see the same tactic applied to succes  

In regards to Violent Urgency vs Gorelord. I personally still pick Gorelord over it, or Blood Stampede for that matter. The reasoning behind this is extremely simple. 24" beats 6" by a lot. Affecting 3 units opposed to 1, maby 2 is a lot. Most importantly of all, it does not require my General to baby-sit other units because 24" is half my side of the table. 
Additionally as a statistical example for Gorelord, rolling 3 dice and removing the lowest is statistically better as re-rolling 2 dice. One improves your statistical average (3 dice, remove 1) the other brings you closer to the statistical average (2 dice, option to re-roll). Again affecting Units with Gorelord is a hell easier to do than affecting Units with re-rolled charges. 
- Violent Urgency is 8" range, vastly inferior to Gorelord's 24" (and 3 units)
- Banner of Blood is 8" range, vastly inferior to Gorelord's 24" (and 3 units)

My moral remains, disregarding Mighty Lord of Khorne is just not something I can endorse for a competative game. There is a 60 point cost difference and in return of that you get an additional wound, two additional bravery, a 3+  save, the 'perfect' 3+/3+/-1/D3 that can also quite easily turn into a complete Monster elimination the moment you start to tinker with his attacks due Mark of the Destroyer and other buffs granted by Bloodsecrators. 
On top of all that you have a bigger base size to work with and Collar of Khorne. 

The list looks good, not having to pick Violent Urgency because of Gorelord still works in my personal favour. 140 points with Disciple of Khorne and Mark of the Destroyer cranks up the Mighty Lord of Khorne to a grand total of 18 attacks by himself and that most certainly carries 140 points around.
The thing with the AD is that in practice his synergies are largely applied to one unit due to his own base size and 6"/8" effect ranges.
Cheers, 

 

I'm simply saying that, at 80 points, the Violent Urgency Aspiring Deathbringer is a hell of a deal. If someone is not playing him near units that can benefit from his attack buff (and thus Violent Urgency) then they're doing it wrong anyways. 

The Mighty Lord is a hell of a monster slayer with Mark of the Destroyer. But you do not need to make him General to give him that, nor does he need to be General to give out Gorelord. I think burning a Blood Tithe to use it in an early charge phase (with the MLoK on one side of the field and Aspiring Deathbringer General on the other) is huge. At which point you can burn another if you need to. I've always seen the Mighty Lord as a great Monster slayer, and that remains even more true now than ever, but unless you're running Goretide, there's just no reason to make him General with the Blood Tithe able to activate his command ability in the event you need to charge four units in. 

And if if the Aspiring Deathbringer isn't General, then there's just not as much reason to even take him. He loses his command ability, he doesn't attack stellar by himself, he has nothing really going for him without the General tag. Meanwhile the MLoK has more than enough going for him to include him in lists without making him your lead hero. 

[Killax]

39 minutes ago, Adasi said:

aye good advice i guess. the WoK BT is important for the command ability to allow the letters to run and charge and give +1" to both though

Certainly. List should work out fine as is. 

[Killax]

1 minute ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

 

And if if the Aspiring Deathbringer isn't General, then there's just not as much reason to even take him. He loses his command ability, he doesn't attack stellar by himself, he has nothing really going for him without the General tag. Meanwhile the MLoK has more than enough going for him to include him in lists without making him your lead hero. 

The thing is, he doesnt lose his command ability and his ability wants him up field anyway. Meaning you will not only gain those attacks in the place where combat is thick you will likely generate more BT points.

As before do as you please, if you dont like rolling 3d6 pick highest for 3 units as opposed to one then keep the AD around 24" vs 6/8" is a world of difference that marters a lot on 2K tablet sizes.

[Aspirant Snaeper]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

The thing is, he doesnt lose his command ability and his ability wants him up field anyway. Meaning you will not only gain those attacks in the place where combat is thick you will likely generate more BT points.

Who?

[Killax]

6 minutes ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

Who?

I have the vague idea you havn't checked out the Aspiring Deathbringers updated Command Ability. 
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-aspiringdeathbringer-goreaxe-en.pdf

As above, he does not have to be General (anymore) to use this Ability (through for example 1 Blood Tithe point reward).
All changes are covered here:

So where I like my AD is in the frontline or right behind it to push through with my attacks. The Mighty Lord of Khorne remains practically functional on any place on the board.

Cheers,

[MunchkinX2000]

Especially for 500 points I'd also consider not thaking any Battalion. 80 points are a lot on that level. I don't always think that you get the same value out of a Battalion at 500 points as say out of a Aspiring Deathbringer, Bloodstoker or another Bloodreaver unit. Unless your forced to? Also with what kind of steps will the army progress?

The more that Battalion cost can be spreaded into the army, giving out multiple bonusses for a relatively lower cost per unit, the better the Battalion becomes. As an example, The Goretide can be great but becomes a whole lot more costly to play if you do suddenly want to include Bloodthirsters, Bloodletters or Skullcannons, simply because those Units do not gain any bonus from your 120 point investment.

 

League grows 500p per month.

Great insight. Appreciate it a lot.

Lähetetty minun PLK-L01 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[Killax]

Just now, MunchkinX2000 said:

League grows 500p per month.

Great insight. Appreciate it a lot.

Lähetetty minun PLK-L01 laitteesta Tapatalkilla
 

 

Sounds like an awesome league!

If you like the Bloodsecrator and Slaughterpriest regardless (to set up for eventual Gore Pilgrim use/Battalion) I think you can't really go wrong with:

500
- Slaughterpriest (100) (Bronzed Flesh)
- Bloodsecrator (120) (General; Give him a nice protective Artefact; Command Trait as you like)
- 5 Skullreapers (140)
- 10 Bloodreavers (70)
- 10 Bloodreavers (70)

To me this really sets up nicely for a possible 1K Gore Pilgrim list and you can basically increase Bloodreaver units alongside of that. Something like this could work out well:

1000 (990)
(Gore Pilgrims) (80)
- Slaughterpriest (100) (Bronzed Flesh)
- Slaughterpriest (100) (Bronzed Flesh/Brazen Fury/Killing Frenzy)
- Bloodsecrator (120) (Likely still General, though more optional)
- 20 Bloodreavers (140)
- 20 Bloodreavers (140)
- 10 Bloodreavers (70)
- 5 Blood Warriors (100)
(Gore Pilgrims)
- 5 Skullreapers (140)

From that point on all you really have to do is add whatever you like. The reason I personally like Skullreapers is because they provide an excellent backbone + footprint. The other easy option to go is not include the Bloodsecrator from the start yet and follow up with 3 Skullcrushers instead of 5 Skullreapers. This has the advantage of being faster but has the disadvantage of running with less models. It really is up to you !
 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

30 minutes ago, Killax said:

I have the vague idea you havn't checked out the Aspiring Deathbringers updated Command Ability. 
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-aspiringdeathbringer-goreaxe-en.pdf

As above, he does not have to be General (anymore) to use this Ability (through for example 1 Blood Tithe point reward).
 

 

I dont know where you got that vague idea. I dont know how you arrive to most of your notions really 

[Killax]

2 minutes ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

I dont know where you got that vague idea. I dont know how you arrive to most of your notions really 

By reading, you said: 

Quote

And if if the Aspiring Deathbringer isn't General, then there's just not as much reason to even take him. He loses his command ability

- Moral is doesn't lose his Command Ability. As said five times now if you want to play him, go ahead.  

[kozokus]

@Killax Just a question BTW, why do you rate the Exalted DB higher than the Grinder?

For my part i always found that the SG beneficy more from additionnal attacks than the EDB