Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Mirage8112]

3 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

doesn't he get his destruction move in his Kunnin' Rukk move too? Or does the destruction move happen in the hero phase.

The destruction free move is in the hero phase. He can use his savage boss to move in there hero phase too for a max hero phase move of 6" (thanks to the changeling)

 

4 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

Charging the Boss with the Changeling is smart, hadn't thought of that. If we get the double turn that's definitely good for us. On our turn 1 though how do we kill anything with the LoC? If the LoC is in range of thundertusks at the start of our turn he's already dead. Or are we talking about summoned in LoC? 

Also even with no boss, those archers are 120 shots, 40 hits, 27 wounds, 18 wounds into our LoC. He needs 94 shots to average out a oneshot on our bird. (By my dubious maths), so we need to strip off 20 models or 40 wounds from the big block to save an LoC. 

Yes, Big Bird is summoned in. That way he's not vulnerable to first round shooting. it should be pretty easy to get the bird in position to take out one of the edge tusks and still be 26" away from the archers. 18" for spell range + at least 6" for the tusks base alone makes for 24", unless he can bring 40 archers within 2" of the tusks base he won't be in range (26" range thanks to the changeling). And if he did set up like that, he can't cover side both tusks in that manner. We have the option of picking the side we attack, so just pick the side that's the most favorable. 
 

10 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

The threat range on Thundertusks turn one is D6" + 8" + D6" + 18" which is average 33"? (Maths has been proven terrible)

lol. Jesus no. D6+8+18" (one D6 move in the hero phase is all they get) that's 31". (also that's the max. It's more likely 29-30"). 
 

13 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

On his first turn, lets assume his archers can't get into range to fire His thundertusks do enough damage to kill our LoC and our Herald on the first turn, which would be bad for us.

LoC isn't on the board yet, and the herald has a threat range of 42" (18" summon + 6" base + 18" spell range) Deploy 4.5" back and the tusks can't touch him, (24" between deployment zone edges and 7.5 inches into our deployment zone is 31.5 inches away. .5 inches short) but no matter where they go we can get to them ( 42" range with that deployment reaches almost 10" into their deployment zone and it's unlikely they'll move backwards, since they'll be well blocked by his other models). 
 

15 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

In order to [determine first turn]* we have to finish deployment first,  so he can put his thundertusks wherever he wants to turn one both our characters, we can't hide from a 33" range, the table is simply not big enough.

*I assume thats what you meant.

Yes. But again, we can just put our one character 4.5" back (and fill our front line with cheap horrors). If he wanted to be that aggressive the best he could do is knock out an 80pt unit of brimstone horrors. Who cares. Plus, he's way overextended himself coming out that far. Kunnin rukk won't be able to protect him from cc and we have a good shot at getting a double turn. Now he's in range of not just the LoC and the herald we'll summon, but also 2 units of pink horrors and hell of a blue horror tarpit. He's welcome to charge as well. That would be a big mistake on his part since brimstone horrors don't care. We got lots of them. 

 

25 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

Then if that happens we are obviously in real trouble left with 750 points of horrors vs his 1700 points of destruction?

Be careful with your deployment and you've got nothing to worry about. Literally. Keeping your ranges tight means he can't get a first turn anything, and setting up for a second turn charge/shooting just opens him up for punishment. 

[Tokyo Nift]

A quick note before getting into the list, I've seen tournaments that don't allow duplicates of the same gift/artefact/whatever. So you maybe couldn't take aspect of tzeentch on everyone.

[Denneysman]

ITC is the big thing around here and I know they do. Even if that happens it doesn't effect list much you just go from wasting dice to a more budget tactic.

if can the more dice you use the more you get back. If can't just use when you need to.

[Tokyo Nift]

@Mirage - I actually thought he could run and shoot with Thundertusks as they don't roll to hit. But I just saw that it is actually still a missile weapon not an ability. Ok yeah so we can protect our guys from getting turn one'd by deploying them outside of 30", nice. 

If I were him I would either hang all back, or go all forward. If he runs full forward towards our herald, that kinda limits our summoning area. 



Excuse the hilarious mouse drawing  but this is what I'm imagining in my head. Even with a 42" threat range it's hard to find the space not blocked by screens etc (unlabelled orc boxes are Ardboyz) if he puts his screens so that they block the places we can summon and safely threaten a thundertusk.

So in this scenario, which I think is pretty much the best one for us, we'd have to summon the LoC right in front of our lines, kill two Thundertusks, and hope for the double turn ? Because I feel like if he then gets the turn we're in for a world of hurt.

EDIT: This drawing is legit terrible in terms of quality and strategy, but was good to get my thoughts onto "paper".

[Mirage8112]

10 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

@Mirage - I actually thought he could run and shoot with Thundertusks as they don't roll to hit. But I just saw that it is actually still a missile weapon not an ability. Ok yeah so we can protect our guys from getting turn one'd by deploying them outside of 30", nice. 

If I were him I would either hang all back, or go all forward. If he runs full forward towards our herald, that kinda limits our summoning area. 



Excuse the hilarious mouse drawing  but this is what I'm imagining in my head. Even with a 42" threat range it's hard to find the space not blocked by screens etc (unlabelled orc boxes are Ardboyz) if he puts his screens so that they block the places we can summon and threaten a thundertusk.

You might want to redraw that. You put the arrow boys on the front line and the boss isn't hugging the back line. if I saw you deploy like that I'd take the first turn (since that's determined after both armies have deployed) summon a herald and 3 exalted flamers in your face (42" threat range remember?). Goodbye boss and goodbye archers. Sure I'll lose 360 pts worth of flamers (maybe) and herald, but I've just knocked all your shooting down to something manageable and now you'll have to try and slog through those regenerating horrors without the benefits of covering fire. 

[Tokyo Nift]

24 minutes ago, Denneysman said:

Ok here's the list I'm putting together.

Allegiance: Chaos
    #1                                                          #2                                                               #3
Leaders                                  /        Leaders                                      /                      Leaders            
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)        /      Herald Of Tzeentch (120)         /               Herald Of Tzeentch (120)       
Fatemaster (140)                     /     Tzaangor Shaman (120)            /             Tzaangor Shaman (120)
Tzaangor Shaman (120)         /      Lord of Change     (300)            /             Archaon The Everchosen (320)
Tzaangor Shaman (120)

 

I like Leaders #2 best I think, btw.

[Denneysman]

Tokyo your forgetting a very important thing.

"It's NOT about beating their army. It's about winning the battleplan."

If they are killing 2 out of 3 units a turn But your gaining the points. he can wipe you out but you'll still win.

[Tokyo Nift]

35 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

You might want to redraw that. You put the arrow boys on the front line and the boss isn't hugging the back line. if I saw you deploy like that I'd take the first turn (since that's determined after both armies have deployed) summon a herald and 3 exalted flamers in your face (42" threat range remember?). Goodbye boss and goodbye archers. Sure I'll lose 360 pts worth of flamers (maybe) and herald, but I've just knocked all your shooting down to something manageable and now you'll have to try and slog through those regenerating horrors without the benefits of covering fire. 

3 Exalted flamers is 18 shots, 9 hits, 6 wounds, 1 save, 10 damage? Kills 5 archers, that really doesn't seem to knock the threat off those guys. I'd happily kill the 500 points of summoned in minions for that, and for not having to deal with the enemy army all at once. 

EDIT: Also not worrying about boss position too much just assuming for sake of argument he dies to the Changeling on turn one.

EDIT: Also, I was drawing that for our best case, I don't really know what happens if the destruction player just decides to edge forwards,  surrounds his big boss so that we can't get into melee with him, and sets up for his turn two allowing him to move and shoot but staying outside of our threat range. (Aside from the summoned in LoC who only does 9-12 damage and will instantly die.)

[Tokyo Nift]

1 minute ago, Denneysman said:

Tokyo your forgetting a very important thing.

"It's NOT about beating their army. It's about winning the battleplan."

If they are killing 2 out of 3 units a turn But your gaining the points. he can wipe you out but you'll still win.

Talking about Take and Hold I believe. Obviously there's gonna be different strategies on different battle plans. 

[Mirage8112]

36 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

3 Exalted flamers is 18 shots, 9 hits, 6 wounds, 1 save, 10 damage? Kills 5 archers, that really doesn't seem to knock the threat off those guys. I'd happily kill the 500 points of summoned in minions for that, and for not having to deal with the enemy army all at once. 

The herald kills the big boss with pink fire, shot output drops from 240 to 120, then casts either bolt of change or firestorm (or whatever) for about ~4  wounds on the arrow boys. Shot output drops from 120 to 114 .  Exalted flamers are 9" away and do 10 (probably 13-14 depending on capricious warp flame) damage in the shooting phase. Shot output drops another 15-20 shots from 114 to about 100. (depending)

With battleshock I took first turn, so no inspiring presence. The flamers are 9" away so no bonus to bravery. The arrowboys lost ~8 models at bravery 5. At the very least, they lose 4 more models, at the most 9 models. Let's average, say 6 more models. Dropping shot output by another, 18.

That unit just went from 240 shots, to 82. 240 shots on average will do 60 wounds, while 82 will do about 20 (vs something without a save. against shielded pinks it's about 10. perfectly handleable) It's mobility is hampered too (no savage boss to help out). I've also still got the changeling, so I can still mess with their movement. their threat range just dropped to 22 inches. which they won't even really be able to use against the main army (still out of range) until they clear the summoned units. 

I spent half of what I held in reserve to knock out the only thing in the list that can delete a unit of horrors in a single turn.  

The real question is who gets the next turn. The worst thing that could happen is he gets it and closes the gap with his tusks. At that point I might  lose a unit of horrors to frost wreathed ice, but as we said before. I have plenty of them. Shooting isn't a worry anymore, and I can just grind it out between shooting damage and mortal wounds from spells. For the rest of the game, I can pretty much bring the horrors up without worrying, at all, about concentrated arrow fire. Plus, I still have just enough points to bring the LoC onto the field, since I'll be sure to block out a spot for him 18" from the tusks. 

i might also add the list in question didn't use any ardboys. Just moonclan grots.

[Tokyo Nift]

I agree with your calculations, see my comment on best case. You CAN summon an LoC, but having summoned in a herald, and 3 exalted flamers, it's not VERY likely you can summon in an LoC on a 10 even with destiny dice. especially if you're herald has been thundertusked off the board.

So let's look at your situation, we have killed the big boss, they have 20 wounds from archers, 18 wounds from thundertusks, 3 units of 10 ardboys. 

We lose our 3 exalted flamers and herald on that turn. If he wins the next turn, he can shoot and charge with everything.

20 wounds from archers, into something without mystic shield given there are so many targets.

18 wounds from thundertusks, 6 of which remove the herald, 12 of which remove a block of horrors.

30/100 horrors gone.

Once things are in combat: 

3 blocks of Ardboys - 90 attacks,  45 hits, 30 wounds, some saves depending 40/100 horrors gone.
3 Thundertusks - each will do about 5 wounds so just assume they go as a block of 3 and that's 50/100 horrors gone. 

Then it's our turn. 

We have 50 horrors, a combined output of 5 wounds into things with 4+ like the Ardboys or Tusks from shooting, and some sets of D3MW from spells depending on what died. If we summon in another lord of change, it kills a thundertusk and then instantly dies to the other two?



(There's obviously a lot of shenanigans with like, double helix horror deployment that mean his attacks are gimped and he's forced to limit his attacks which is why I've underestimated most of that above damage. )

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Tokyo Nift said:

I agree with your calculations, see my comment on best case. You CAN summon an LoC, but having summoned in a herald, and 3 exalted flamers, it's not VERY likely you can summon in an LoC on a 10 even with destiny dice. especially if you're herald has been thundertusked off the board.

Remember, theres a herald that starts on the board. But he's not he only model that can summon. Pinks are wizards too. So the first herald chills in the back (back line) and summons the flamers using 2 dice. That leaves you 7 dice in the pool. The pinks can summon the second herald, since anything other than rolling double 1's twice is a success (arcane wellspring and +1 for being within 9" of a herald). Then because your casting value was over 9, the herald in the back can summon again, or mystic shield the pinks. And then move out of the thundertusk's threat range. It might also be a good idea to push the brimstone horrors up a bit to keep the tusks from getting within 18" of the first herald. (who moved off to the left/right in your movement phase to find a safe spot)

So just to be clear, we now have 2 heralds on the board, one at the back edge and one at the enemies front lines. 1 unit or 20 brimstone horrors pushed up a little to give a buffer and the rest of the horrors sitting a couple inches behind the deployment line. 

 

1 hour ago, Tokyo Nift said:

We lose our 3 exalted flamers and herald on that turn. If he wins the next turn, he can shoot and charge with everything.

Yes, but how does he do that? He only has grots on his front lines and the thundertusks are set to run up the field. Does he shoot the flamers with his archers? If he does he can't shoot the main army or the herald. If he wants to charge them with the arrowboys, he still can't get in range to shoot the main army. He'll need to either dedicate a thundertusk to clearing the herald/flamers or risk them sticking around into the second turn since grots are unlikely to shift the flamers by themselves. (and he still cant shoot the army that turn).
 

1 hour ago, Tokyo Nift said:

20 wounds from archers, into something without mystic shield given there are so many targets.

18 wounds from thundertusks, 6 of which remove the herald, 12 of which remove a block of horrors.

30/100 horrors gone.

Negative on the first point, he's got to clear the flamers/herald to get in range. And he's still hampered by the changeling.

The second point is still unclear, did he use one of the tusks to help clear the herald/flamers? And he can't get in range to get to the first herald since his approach is blocked by brimstone horrors)

Third point depends. He can't get within range to use frost wreathed ice remember? it only has a 30" threat range and the herald is hugging the back of the board. Plus, he's buffered by those little brimstone horrors preventing the tusk from getting within range of him (and still 8 dice in the pool).

 

1 hour ago, Tokyo Nift said:

Once things are in combat: 

3 blocks of Ardboys - 90 attacks,  45 hits, 30 wounds, some saves depending 40/100 horrors gone.

Again, there are no ardboy's. The list only has space for grots and has to take them to make battleline. 

 

1 hour ago, Tokyo Nift said:

3 Thundertusks - each will do about 5 wounds so just assume they go as a block of 3 and that's 50/100 horrors gone. 

Then it's our turn. 

 

Sweet. Since they can only reach the brimstone horrors (who are screening) they kill 10 (I'm assuming 2 tusks since you'll likely need at least 1 to help clear the flamers/herald) or risk not being able to shoot next turn.

So, we lost 10 brimstone horrors. plus whatever they put their blizzard into (another 12... something) And by the way, there isn't 100 horrors in the list. There's 150. First turn, you've taken out 22 of the brimstone horrors (provided everything goes into one place). I've still got 128 left. 

Now it's our turn. Still 7 dice in the destiny pool. The herald using his arcane tome that allows you to roll 3 dice for the cast.) The average 3 dice roll is 10, and you can re-roll 1's. Or you could guarantee a ten by burning a 4 and two 3's. Boom LoC on the board. Between him and the 3 units of pinks all being able to spam mortal wound spells, shooting from the 40 pinks and 60 blues you should be able to take out a tusk with ease, very possibly 2. 

Now, you've got a unit of arrow boys with a vastly reduced shot output, still well out of reach of being able to shoot the LoC (since you summoned him on the other side of the board.) And you still have the changeling able to reduce their movement. He has 1 tusk left on the board and nothing else but grots. 

How does that leave us tabled?  

 

[Nico]

Interesting discussion. A couple of observations:

The Changeling "halves its Move" - the capitalisation suggest that what is meant is the Move characteristic and not the distance moved. So the Kunning Rukk move would be halved and the movement phase move too (as these depend on the Move characteristic), but not the D6 Destruction Move.

Note that the Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror buffs the "Move" characteristic whereas Settrs buffs the overall distance moved.

 

[Tokyo Nift]

If he gets double turn is how he gets through the flamers is what I meant. Gonna retire from this topic though, the chain of ifs is too long.

I shall definitely concede that the list is definitely a far MORE competitive choice vs K. Rukk than I thought it was. Still not convinced it wouldn't fall over just due to low damage units vs a good destruction player (which I do not claim to be).

The list I was thinking of was ardboyz instead of grots, not sure why that is. Brain is apparently all OVER the place atm. Preciate the patience with which you've explained the strategies though, definitely very well structured and convincing.

Goodnight fellow Tzeentchians. <3

[Mirage8112]

10 minutes ago, Nico said:

The Changeling "halves its Move" - the capitalisation suggest that what is meant is the Move characteristic and not the distance moved. So the Kunning Rukk move would be halved and the movement phase move too (as these depend on the Move characteristic), but not the D6 Destruction Move.

That's a tough call. It's not a major point but the implications are far reaching. Especially considering this faq ruling:

Q: Do pile-in moves and charge moves, or indeed any other sort of move that doesn’t happen in the movement phase, count as a ‘move’ for rules purposes?
A: Yes – any rules that refer to a model making a move apply to any sort of move, including pile-in moves and charge moves. However, please note that the restrictions on moving within 3" of an enemy model and the opportunity for a unit to run only apply to moves that are made in the movement phase. 

 

[Tokyo Nift]

As one last aside, I think the hardest thing about that matchup would be taking less than an hour per turn with moving hundreds of models and both players rolling hundreds of dice D:

[Mirage8112]

6 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

As one last aside, I think the hardest thing about that matchup would be taking less than an hour per turn with moving hundreds of models and both players rolling hundreds of dice D:

Bore your opponent to death.

"Just as planned"

[Tzaangor Management]

I was thinking about the Curseling, a model that i really like and will pick up regardless, and whether he makes a good general.

If you give him the Magical Supremacy trait, the +2 re-roll shield and the treacherous bond spell he should be pretty survivable and would make your opponent have to consider every spell they cast. That said, are other armies even casting that many spells?

Also, why doesn't he have the Daemon keyword? Models that stand on Daemons have it, but not one who has a Daemon growing out of him...

[Tokyo Nift]

4 hours ago, Tzaangor Management said:

I was thinking about the Curseling, a model that i really like and will pick up regardless, and whether he makes a good general.

If you give him the Magical Supremacy trait, the +2 re-roll shield and the treacherous bond spell he should be pretty survivable and would make your opponent have to consider every spell they cast. That said, are other armies even casting that many spells?

Also, why doesn't he have the Daemon keyword? Models that stand on Daemons have it, but not one who has a Daemon growing out of him...

I think you kinda answered it yourself, many armies just aren't casting spells. You have a decent chance to get a mystic shield, but it's really only Tzeentch (who I've seen) who are reliably casting relevant spells.

That said - it'll depend a lot on your local meta. I don't know why he doesn't have the daemon keyword tbf, I thought he would. 

[Tzaangor Management]

3 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

I think you kinda answered it yourself, many armies just aren't casting spells. You have a decent chance to get a mystic shield, but it's really only Tzeentch (who I've seen) who are reliably casting relevant spells.

Having looked at fair few army lists I had thought this might be the case. Could be funny to disrupt Sylvaneth tree spells, but other than that and until Death get a new faction / book / something, probably not as much use as I'd like. Still, not a bad caster with two spells and a 4+.

[Mirage8112]

Having looked at fair few army lists I had thought this might be the case. Could be funny to disrupt Sylvaneth tree spells, but other than that and until Death get a new faction / book / something, probably not as much use as I'd like. Still, not a bad caster with two spells and a 4+.

Since he's a named character can he even take items or a command trait?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Goodwin]

Curseling isn't a named character, he used to be Vilitch, now he's just a generic Curseling..  There's a section in the book that lists the named characters and only Changeling and Kairos fit that bill.

So equip away!

Edit:  That said, I've been thinking of taking him as well.  Keeping him with my Tzaangor x20 to give the Anarchy and Mayhem rule (since it only requires an Arcanite), and giving them Inspiring Presence.  Equipping him as mentioned above should also keep him alive a little longer!

I was thinking of starting a thread at some point where people could list what spells we should be hunting for with him.  Some of us don't have access to all the books and what not, so maybe a list of "if they have this spell, snag it!"

[Tzaangor Management]

4 hours ago, Goodwin said:

I was thinking of starting a thread at some point where people could list what spells we should be hunting for with him.  Some of us don't have access to all the books and what not, so maybe a list of "if they have this spell, snag it!"

Not a bad shout. I don't yet have any of the other books, although am eyeing the Ironjawz - hoping they might get a few more models and an updated tome at some point - so would just be an avid reader at this point!

Thoughts on Mystic Shield stacking if cast by the Curseling in the opponents turn? Shouldn't fall foul of the Rule of One, as the spell would be being cast twice in separate turns, which I think is the only thing stopping it from stacking normally. I'm only just delving into the intricacies of the rules, so might be overlooking something, but it seems like the effects should stack.

[Tokyo Nift]

RAW it definitely stacks! Doesn't go against the rule of one because it's on different turns, and in non-matched play the save stacks so I don't see an issue. 

[blueguy203]

2 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

RAW it definitely stacks! Doesn't go against the rule of one because it's on different turns, and in non-matched play the save stacks so I don't see an issue. 

I have to agree with Nift on this one, two separate turns to cast the same spell.