nasty little 1000 Pts. Death

[Solaris]

No, you have to pick one or the other.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, it depends on what you've modelled it with. The Zombies thing is a fair point though.

[the_prophecy]

hm ok, i dont know wich option is wich. This is my Cart

 

 

[Solaris]

That would be the Unholy Lodestone, I believe. However, I would not be so picky with that - as long as you specify before the battle which one you use, it should be fine. The important point is that you don't get both effects simultaneously.

[mmimzie]

First on the zombie joining thing. The Facebook answer posted months ago was that you can indeed join. The Last few big tournaments allowed the joining as all the models were already paid for. I also asked the LVO folks are they are allowing zombie joining, and currently i'm asking the grand tourny to see if the zombie joining is indeed a thing. So if we wanna say "consensus" thus far it's that the zombie joining is okay.

way i see it is two units are becoming 1 unit. Not a new unit just both units are becoming the same unit. As such you add up the current number and the max of both units and that's your unit now.

 

As for zombie power: I've played nothing but zombies since patched play. My zombies have killed Rerolling 2+ stardrakes in 1 turn (this is to say the unit got a juicy surround one turn, and the drake got healed back up, then i attacked it again on my turn and took it from full to dead),  THey've killed nagash, VLoZD, Maw crushers, Manfrad, Hordes of skaven, storm vermin, treelords, Multiple units of decimators at the same time, and really everything that's been put in thier way. They are dead powerful, and the strongest thing in death that can be buffed as they have only 1 base attack.

As mentioned before a VL command ability double thier attacks. Then VDM quadruples thier out put. Corpse care give them a small 1/6th increase as well. Mistical terrain is also a little silly when they get all those rerolls. VLoA give them a 14-16 inch threat range (7.5 average charge + 8 inch move). 

 

They don't care about the meta as it's currently very heavily in favor of monsters and mortal wounds to counter monsters. Mortal wounds just don't bring enough numbers to deal with the zombies, and you get to throw a save reguardless.  While Monsters provide a large surface area for the zombies usualing give them 50+ models attacks with buffs that's 200 attacks. 

 

As was said you need ALOT of zombies. The important thing is your zombies stay in base contact and you remove zombies from the back of the horde. So, your surround get's better and better.  

 

My 2k point zombie list has 180-160 zombies; 90 deployed the rest are summoned or replaced with dire wolves (because i already have the corpse cart), banshees for pesky warmachine crew, or harbingers for hero assassination (dont like summoning these really eats into the horde).

[Nico]

Glad to hear that the Zombros are doing well. There is something appealing about carpeting the board with them and even potentially making a 100+ man unit.

Quote

They don't care about the meta as it's currently very heavily in favor of monsters and mortal wounds to counter monsters.

I'm not sure this is right. To the extent there is a meta, there is a heavy favouring of pew pew units (Bonesplitterz, Kurnoth Hunters, Judicators, Hurricana, Stormfiends, Thundertusks), but a good variety of alpha strike lists, deep strike lists (Stormcast, Sylvaneth, Clan Skryre), and endurance/restore models lists (Flesh Eater Courts, Sylvaneth).

Apart from the undercosted Beastclaw monsters, the VLoZD, the GKoTG and GKoZD, the Mourngul (and technically Treelord Ancients and Spirit of Durthu), I'm not aware that the meta features monsters heavily at all - especially for Order and Chaos armies. Alarielle, Nagash, the 3 Mortarchs, Stardrakes, Thanqless, Gordrakk, the other Monstrous Arcanum monsters and Archaon are all pretty rare at events. 

[mmimzie]

Sorry i forget alot of folks here are UK. In cali theres been alot of the big boy meta, as most of the crowd popped up with the advent of the generals hand book. The monster list being much easier to put together due to low model count and dry brush friend paint techniques. The alpha strike star drake with tons of friends has been popular too. 

That said i have gone against the Bone splitterz pew pew, judicators, and Storm fiends. I've also PLayed against Flesh eaters. I played sylvaneth, but i dont think the guy i played there had much of a strategy in mind.

 

Most of the shooty list lose to the MSU of zombies, as it's really tough to kill exactly 10 zombies with out wasting a bunch of shots. Ever unit left with one guy can start healing back models. Judicators do better because they can focus down single units at a time more easily as they have multiple shooting units. 

 

Flesh eaters are a grind, but the zombies just seem to do more damage once they horde up deleting multiple whole units a turn, and the double pile in makes for viscious surrounds. 

 

I haven't seen a hurricana is that spooky??? Also thundertusks???

 

I dont know though. I might be getting a little board of the zombies as i've still yet to get an L under my belt. I'm strongly debating making a trip for the Grand tourny to get my hand butted to me so i can enjoy recrafting my zombie list, and restrategizing. Though i've heard a few of the top folks from the UK are headed to the LVO so maybe i could just stick with that??? 

[Malakithe]

What's your 2k list? I'm more in favor of skellies right now due to the zombie models looking like...rotting old models...

[Nico]

I wasn't suggesting that those popular or meta armies are good against Zombros (some would definitely be bad, e.g. Thundertusks - you actively don't want mortal wounds against Zombros), I was just pointing out that monsters don't seem over-represented - they probably hit a high water mark under SCGT.

I guess a big buffed unit of Blightkings would be pretty good against Zombros - no rend is ideal and maxing out the number of hits going to the ward saves. Dryads would also be very strong.  

I just bought 30 Zombros from eBay, they do look dismal.

[the_prophecy]

i use Mantics Zombies and Skellies, i have a LOT

[Solaris]

I guess the main draw of Zombies over Skeletons would be the flexibility you gain from being able to play them both as MSU and as large units.

In terms of being the best recipient of buffs in the Death range, that is simply not true. They are among the best recipient of +1 attack buffs, but Skeletons are equivalently among the best recipients of bonuses to hit and wound rolls. Zombies get attack quality from numbers, and are thus good when they get extra attacks. Skeletons get extra attacks from numbers, and are thus good when they get attack quality buffs (these are readily available in the Tomb Kings list).

Due to the higher range of their attacks, I would definitely rate Skeletons higher than Zombies in terms of offensive power. In terms of staying power, they are similar - Zombies have increased regen when they fight a foe that allows them to kill a lot of models, whereas Skeletons have armor.

When playing Zombies, I still think you have to be careful. There are many foes that can kill 20-30 models per turn without even being specialized for killing units with no armor, and then you lose another 10-20 to battleshock. Facing an enemy that is specialized for killing units with no armor, you will lose considerably more. As an example, I did some calculations for my unit of 40 Skeletons with spears. If I put all the buffs I have available in my list on them, they will on average kill 104 Zombies per combat phase (without Ruler of the Night) or 83 Zombies per combat phase (with Ruler of the Night). In comparison, a unit of 40 or more Zombies will, assuming that about 20 of them get to attack due to 1" range, kill about 12 Skeletons on their first combat turn (I run Settra, so no Ruler of the Night). Even in a more conservative scenario (Skeletons only being buffed by a Tomb King and a Liche Priest), the Skeletons still kill 36 and 44 Zombies (with/without RotN), so you definitely do not want the Skeletons to attack first.

Zombies are strong, but they are not exceptional neither offensively nor defensively. Their strength lies in their versatility, cheap cost and readily available reinforcements due to summoning and Shambling Horde.

[Squirrelmaster]

1 hour ago, Solaris said:

Due to the higher range of their attacks, I would definitely rate Skeletons higher than Zombies in terms of offensive power.

I have to agree. zombies are a cheap way to fill your minimum battleline, and let you field your minimum battleline as one big unit instead of multiple small ones, but if you're looking for points-effective hitting power, skeletons are far superior, no matter how you buff them.

Then again, having recently faced two opponents with treemen, both with a 2+ save, re-rolling 1s, and ignoring rend up to -1 (not to mention healing themselves with magic), I'm never again going to field an army that relies entirely on either skeletons or zombies for hitting power. Sometimes, you really need to be able to dish out mortal wounds, or at least a decent quantity of -2 rend or better.

[Solaris]

It also belongs to the discussion that 40 Skeletons cost 80 points more than 40 Zombies. Even so, the combat power is really not comparable between the two units - the strength of the Zombies lies elsewhere.

38 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

I have to agree. zombies are a cheap way to fill your minimum battleline, and let you field your minimum battleline as one big unit instead of multiple small ones, but if you're looking for points-effective hitting power, skeletons are far superior, no matter how you buff them.

Then again, having recently faced two opponents with treemen, both with a 2+ save, re-rolling 1s, and ignoring rend up to -1 (not to mention healing themselves with magic), I'm never again going to field an army that relies entirely on either skeletons or zombies for hitting power. Sometimes, you really need to be able to dish out mortal wounds, or at least a decent quantity of -2 rend or better.

Ideally, a list should have access to, and be able to distribute power between (through buffs), all different kinds of damage: rend -, rend -1, rend -2 and mortal.

[mmimzie]

3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

What's your 2k list? I'm more in favor of skellies right now due to the zombie models looking like...rotting old models...

VL (General, Immortal, Ruler Of the Knight)

2x Necromancers

1x Vampire Lord on abyssal

2x Corpse Cart (+1 cast, but modeled with the flames because they are cool and fit the theme of my army)

 

9x10 zombies

~~1,320 points about

680 summoning pool. 10 zombie/ dire wolves/carin Wraith summons, +1 banshee. I think the Harbingers cost 4 zombie summons.

 

I've been playing around with the best way to run the zombies torn between block of 20 and 10. I like the 10 because they play better against battle shock. All the heros have layers of bubble wrapping, and they really don't need to get involved with the actual fighting so they can stay back out of shooting range. I deploy slow and can usually save my heros for last and throw them where they will be safest from artillery amid the horde. 

 

Long time ago you guys suggested doubling up on the hero's, which was a good idea. So Vamp Lord has the ring  and with her drink she can double herself, Necros are doubled up, and corpse cart is doubled up.

 

The VLoA is the only none doubled as he's expensive and his buff and role is useless after turn 2.  VLoA can work similar to the harbingers making himself movement 24" and letting him suddenly strike out across the board to snipe enemy heros.

 

If i go first i can make a wall of Dire Wolves against melee armies, or summon more zombies and march accross the board. If i go second i can double time the zombies and get a big surprise charge if need be.

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Then again, having recently faced two opponents with treemen, both with a 2+ save, re-rolling 1s, and ignoring rend up to -1 (not to mention healing themselves with magic), I'm never again going to field an army that relies entirely on either skeletons or zombies for hitting power. Sometimes, you really need to be able to dish out mortal wounds, or at least a decent quantity of -2 rend or better.

This is why I'm thinking of 3×10 skellies for my list then fill the rest with cooler stuff like Spirit Hosts, Mortis Engines, and Morghast.

[mmimzie]

mortis engine is nice in the zombie lisy, but again it'll just get shot off the board as its the only palletable target.

As far as dealing with big nasty things, the zombies will just stay in combat with them all game and kill it eventualy. Getting an ever better surround as the 6 models combing back each turn will just engolf the models base. 

Worst case scenary your playing pieaces of power and you have to deal with one treelord on one objective. Actually the real worse case scenario would be a treelord and a stardrake with rerollale 2+ that'd be pretty annoying as you'd need a few turns to scrub them up.  Though this simply hasnt been my experience. 

 

[Squirrelmaster]

9 hours ago, mmimzie said:

mortis engine is nice in the zombie lisy, but again it'll just get shot off the board as its the only palletable target.

As far as dealing with big nasty things, the zombies will just stay in combat with them all game and kill it eventualy. Getting an ever better surround as the 6 models combing back each turn will just engolf the modelsbase. 

Worst case scenary your playing pieaces of power and you have to deal with one treelord on one objective. Actually the real worse case scenario would be a treelord and a stardrake with rerollale 2+ that'd be pretty annoying as you'd need a few turns to scrub them up.  Though this simply hasnt been my experience. 

 

"A few turns"!? Zombies are never going to take down a 2+, re-rollable, self healing Treelord without insane amounts of luck. 40 attacks on a 2+ / 3+ averages less than 1 wound per combat phase, if you can get them all in range.

You can deal with a 2+ with enough zombies, maybe. Not a 2+ re-rollable.

[Solaris]

12 hours ago, Malakithe said:

This is why I'm thinking of 3×10 skellies for my list then fill the rest with cooler stuff like Spirit Hosts, Mortis Engines, and Morghast.

Thing is, there is most definitely a niche for large amounts of weak attacks as well, such as 40x Skeletons with spears. Such a unit is ideal for dealing with low-armored targets.

[mmimzie]

3 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

"A few turns"!? Zombies are never going to take down a 2+, re-rollable, self healing Treelord without insane amounts of luck. 40 attacks on a 2+ / 3+ averages less than 1 wound per combat phase, if you can get them all in range.

You can deal with a 2+ with enough zombies, maybe. Not a 2+ re-rollable.

Again as i said i agree. I've done the math on this forums months ago. Reguardless, this just hasn't been my experience. took down a 2+ star drake woth healer, and a beast claw raif thing with the reroll (i think that had a heal as well?? not sure). 

 

Mind you the zombies have 2 attacks with VL, and pile in and attack twice with necro. effects the math in the smallest of ways, but thats a thing. 

 

Anyway, i definitly do think they should have a very tough time against super tanky units. Though thats the nature of war games right.

[Squirrelmaster]

16 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Again as i said i agree. I've done the math on this forums months ago. Reguardless, this just hasn't been my experience. took down a 2+ star drake woth healer, and a beast claw raif thing with the reroll (i think that had a heal as well?? not sure). 

 

Mind you the zombies have 2 attacks with VL, and pile in and attack twice with necro. effects the math in the smallest of ways, but thats a thing. 

 

Anyway, i definitly do think they should have a very tough time against super tanky units. Though thats the nature of war games right.

Hmm… I guess with two attacks and double activation, you could average about 2.3 wounds per combat phase against a 2+ re-rollable save. On average it would only take you about 6 combat phases to take down a Stardrake, if he had no healing. The standard scenarios give you five game turns, which makes 10 combat phases, so I guess it's possible, with some decent luck.

I still would not want to rely on it in a game.

[Solaris]

10 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Anyway, i definitly do think they should have a very tough time against super tanky units. Though thats the nature of war games right.

Of course, every unit has its strengths and weaknesses. Units without rend typically don't deal well with highly armored targets. Even my 40-man Skeleton unit that gets +2 to hit, +2 to wound, and generates extra attacks on hit rolls of 4+ only deals 3.5 wounds to a 2+ rerollable per combat phase, which can easily be healed back up.

For comparison, a 2-man Morghast Archai unit without any buffs whatsoever deals 3.7 wounds to the same enemy. Start throwing some buffs their way, and they can start putting out some decent damage.

[mmimzie]

@Solaris no seee. i tried archai. i really dont oike them.  death doesnt get alot of defensive buff access. so you'll be hard pressed getting to that 2+/2+ status. Then offensively, the +1 attack from VL has a small weight of them. Rerolling from VLoZD is nice, but he kind of a vulnerable general, and i like spurit host with that buff more. 

 

Manfred buff is nice on the archai because its not just for them. VLoA is nice giving you 18" (they move 9 right or was it 6"). 

[Solaris]

2 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

@Solaris no seee. i tried archai. i really dont oike them.  death doesnt get alot of defensive buff access. so you'll be hard pressed getting to that 2+/2+ status. Then offensively, the +1 attack from VL has a small weight of them. Rerolling from VLoZD is nice, but he kind of a vulnerable general, and i like spurit host with that buff more. 

 

Manfred buff is nice on the archai because its not just for them. VLoA is nice giving you 18" (they move 9 right or was it 6"). 

+1 attack doesn't have a small weight on them, that's a 33% damage increase and very worthwhile. Giving Archai +33% damage against a 2+ with reroll is certainly much better than giving Zombies +100% damage against the same target. The Archai will statistically do noticeable damage to the Treelord or Stardrake, and +33% will make a difference - the Zombies will statistically not do anything useful, and giving them +100% damage will not make much of a difference. Going from 3.7 to 5 wounds is much better than going from 0.6 to 1.2 wounds dealt.

Include TK characters, and you will have access to plenty of buffs. Settra gives the Morghasts +1 to hit, and the Liche Priest can give them exploding attacks.

Of course, throwing Spirit Hosts against the same target is far superior to the other two options. A unit of 6 hosts already deals 6 mortal wounds per turn to it, and this is increased to 7 with Mannfred, 10 with the VLoZD and 12 with Settra. This will kill any of the above mentioned objective camping tanks (Stardrake, Treelords) in a combat phase or two.

[David Griffin]

Seems to me that you're really comparing apples to oranges here. Morghast Archai are a different unit category (elite) to zombies (horde) and should have a different role in game. Archai are built to better handle high armor, high value targets and can move quickly across the board but will get bogged down if they're fighting large numbers, while zombies thrive at sitting on objectives and just not dying.

I agree about the Spirit Hosts. They routinely over-perform and catch people out.

[Solaris]

37 minutes ago, David Griffin said:

Seems to me that you're really comparing apples to oranges here. Morghast Archai are a different unit category (elite) to zombies (horde) and should have a different role in game. Archai are built to better handle high armor, high value targets and can move quickly across the board but will get bogged down if they're fighting large numbers, while zombies thrive at sitting on objectives and just not dying.

I agree about the Spirit Hosts. They routinely over-perform and catch people out.

Yes, this is exactly my point. According to mmimzie's earlier posts, Zombies are a) among the best damage dealing units in GA: Death, and b) the premier buff recipient in GA: Death. My posts served to prove neither of these are true. Other units (Morghasts, Spirit Hosts and many more) outshine Zombies against high-armor targets, and even in their own niche (attackers without rend) they have about a third of the damage output of Skeletons with spears (two thirds if they get to pile in and attack twice at full strength, but this relies on the opponent dealing insignificant return damage in between the two pile ins).

What I'm trying to illustrate is that the strength of Zombies does not lie in their damage output or staying power - a dedicated attack can easily kill 20-30 Zombies in a combat phase, which will make the rest crumble. The strength of Zombies lies in how cheap and flexible they are, and that they are battleline.