Fireymonkeyboy Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Hi all, I've been pondering the next expansion of my Khorne Mortals list. To date, the killiest portion of my force has been a unit of 8 Khorne knights with Glaives. On the charge, with only a little bit of support / buff, they reliably kill or cripple anything I've thrown them at. In the bump to 2000 points, I've given serious thought to a unit of Skullcrushers. For sheer cool factor, this will probably happen, but I can't help but think they'll under-perform on the table. They lack the offensive potential, for the points, of knights, and don't seem to offer much in the way of defensive advantages either (to be fair, they are 40 points cheaper for the same number of wounds). Any of you have experience of both units, an/or see something about skullies I'm missing? FMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 I think the answer is dependent on how you play, and your personal ability. If you're capable of running in with the knights, then retreating them for another unit say, a chaff unit or another unit of knights to charge and then repeat this process the knights are indeed very strong. But how often do you get that chance, if you don't and they charge in and stay in combat their effectiveness reduces dramatically with lances, same as if you're charged, the knights don't do a lot. Whereas the Skullcrushers always have rend, and as mentioned in another thread, chaos can adjust the attacks, to hit and to wound. But rarely rend, Skullcrushers are much better placed for drawn out combats. Skullcrushers are unlikely to ever flee from battleshock, with bravery 6 (9 with banner ) they're going to stick around unless someone does 15 wounds to the unit in one round, the knights have a bravery of 8, but a lesser wound count per model, if they suffered 6 wounds you'd be looking at a bravery test where you can loose a model. Crushers do potentially d3 mortal wounds on the charge, which can kill a model an trigger the banner, but the knights also reduce bravery which against some armies can really matter. Tbh I think they're equal. And considering the Crushers are 40 points cheaper (which is a chaos knight ) that's pretty good going. Point for point I'd say the Crushers are better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireymonkeyboy Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 I hadn't really considered the Bravery element - in general, if anything in my army is protected from Battleshock, the knights are. The consistent rend thing is a good point, although I do wish they had a higher damage output. Part of what makes the knights so killer on the charge is the 2 damage with glaives. FMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Indeed, but if you don't get the charge your unit looses a lot of its viability. I've seen units of 10 knights charge locked for turn after turn by quick nimble units, or outrageous 12" charges. @daedalus81 has some numbers somewhere which shows the effectiveness of the lances drops to like 3 wounds per turn after the turn after the charge or when charged, compared to 5 or 6 I think with ensorcselled weapons. Also consider the higher wounds on the Skullcrushers, if one suffers 4 wounds he still lives, whereas you'd have lost a knight. If you suffer 6 wounds from the knights you loose 40% of their effectiveness but only 33% from the Skullcrushers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayCloth Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 My Chaos army is all mounted and I've found the Knights to be beyond the skullcrushers by a huge margin. The crushers just don't do the damage and are better as a holdup unit but even this they don't do much better Knights. It's as simple as the Knights with glaives are game winners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 I found Knights to be only any good killing wise in the turn they charged. If they got charged or failed to take out their target they generally didn't do much. The Skullcrushers had a bit more flexibility due being less relianant on the charge, though the D3 mortal wounds on the charge is nice and because they are big models/on big bases they can get a few units with 1" and hit them all (with luck ). The Skullcrushers are a little cheaper for the same number of wounds/save which is nice Both units are fairly tanky though and can absorb a decent amount of damage. I say Skullcrushers all the way but I'm a bit over fond. A better player than I or an army set up to secure their charges might have more success with the Knights. The Juggernauts are also just better and the mounts always do better than the riders ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digdug Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Something I didn't see mentioned but I think carries weight is the Knights Chaos Shield. Ignoring mortal wounds on a 5 or 6 seems like it would keep the Knights alive a bit longer against some of the lists out there that spew mortal wounds. I don't think the Brass Shield on the Skullcrushers is as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Netcode Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Can we make up our minds on the best ways to outfit both of these units? Ive cut and swapped arms on these guys twice now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 47 minutes ago, Broken Netcode said: Can we make up our minds on the best ways to outfit both of these units? Ive cut and swapped arms on these guys twice now! Magnets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Netcode Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 11 minutes ago, Arkiham said: Magnets. Well I guess thats one way to arm the forces of chaos to take down those SE. /s But seriously I would just lose the arms so I just keep them with one build. If I need more then more I shall get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 7 hours ago, Broken Netcode said: Can we make up our minds on the best ways to outfit both of these units? Ive cut and swapped arms on these guys twice now! That's the thing - equip them the way that you like to use them. It's all gravy. And if you're flighty like mentioned above - magnets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorsk Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Then of course there are also the daemons of khorne: bloodcrushers. You have only 4 wounds, but you gain 10 bravery, rend and the chance for mortal wounds off the charge and the swords. Also, if you have a daemon lord around, you can reroll misses. Having purchased a start collecting daemons of khorne to go with my starter khorne bloodbound, bloodcrushers will be my cavalry unit - especially considering over time I want to build out to 30 bloodcrushers and 3 skullcannons which are also in the start collecting boxes. Most importantly, khorne modelers probably already have all the red paints! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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