Vanquishers, Useless or Useful?

[lare2]

14 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Vanquishers are fine, the problem is Vindictors are simply delivering more for the point cost.

I could see Vindictors going up in price in time. I can't say the same for Vanquishers. If there was a larger disparity between the two then there might be more incentive to take the latter. Personally, I hope there is something as I love the models and I will definitely be picking some up... when they're finally released. Can't see me running them beyond casual games though. 

[macrake]

It's not like vindictors are amazing. I'll use liberator's over them almost always. I don't care about their small amount of more damage, because they're not there to do damage.

Vanquisher's are completely pointless. With such a bad warscroll, they'd need to be significantly cheaper than libs before I'd consider them.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

It's for attrition combat. There are a lot of other units in the army who will want to swing early in the combat phase more than them, but vanquishers can safely be picked later in the phase because when the enemy kills models there's no loss of offense; those guys weren't attacking anyways. The unit is self-sufficient and can just go off on their own without needing support from the rest of the army, while being offensive enough to deal meaningful damage (especially with exploding when they die) and disproportionately difficult to fully eliminate. Two surviving vanquishers left alone can easily multiply into a threat again within a round as rally can happen in both players' hero phases.

For such a straightforward stat block the unit is surprisingly high on the skill curve to get good use of them.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with that take.

It seems to me losing attack power when there are fewer enemies around is the opposite of a desired trait for an attrition unit. Trying to spin the short range of Vanquishers which means that a lot of your models will not get into combat if you run a unit of 10 into a positive is also a bit of a reach. I'm not even sure if the rally bonus is worth commiting the extra points and reinforcement slot to. I think I'd rather just have more Liberators at a higher base save instead of the option to more efficiently rally a unit of Vanquishers. I don't know, when I look at these guys they don't seem like good battleline because of their comparatively lower save and higher points, but they also don't seem like good anti-horde because they are slow and can't pick their engagements reliably.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Double post, disregard.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[NinthMusketeer]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'm not sure I 100% agree with that take.

It seems to me losing attack power when there are fewer enemies around is the opposite of a desired trait for an attrition unit. Trying to spin the short range of Vanquishers which means that a lot of your models will not get into combat if you run a unit of 10 into a positive is also a bit of a reach. I'm not even sure if the rally bonus is worth commiting the extra points and reinforcement slot to. I think I'd rather just have more Liberators at a higher base save instead of the option to more efficiently rally a unit of Vanquishers. I don't know, when I look at these guys they don't seem like good battleline because of their comparatively lower save and higher points, but they also don't seem like good anti-horde because they are slow and can't pick their engagements reliably.

I am commenting on how to best use them (and certainly I do not intend to suggest 1" range is a GOOD thing, what I mean is there are factors which act as partial compensation for the disadvantage). I am not saying they are better than the other options, and as I stated I feel that right now they aren't.

Point costs change, so how good the unit is in relation to others will likely be different a year from now. The warscroll and it's ideal use, on the other hand, is likely to remain the same. Anti-horde is not a role I would put them in for an army; it is a tactical option they have available but as part of an overall strategy they will fall flat if that is all they are there for. They are flexible, and like other flexible units the strength is in the tactics.

[DooomRider]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:09 PM, NinthMusketeer said:

Anti-horde is not a role I would put them in for an army; it is a tactical option they have available but as part of an overall strategy they will fall flat if that is all they are there for. They are flexible, and like other flexible units the strength is in the tactics.

This is the thing they perform similarly to Liberators but have a much higher damage potential at a 10 point tax, I think a lot of people are over valuing the lay low ability, it's at the end of the combat phase and as we all know 10wounds with a 4+ and a built in +1 to their save isn't that hard to remove.

I feel like you've hit the nail on the head here, decimators were poor from release due to being solely dependant on the enemy to increase their output, this new edition they've changed and I personally feel like they are worth a look. Vanquishers are in a similar boat right now they require more enemies to perform at their best but I've been looking and they appear strong against many armies due to most armies having 10man battlelines which is where these guys excel, they aren't going to mulch hordes nor slaughter monsters but they really do have an element of being able to face most foes and put on a decent showing we're on about a 125point unit it's not exactly breaking the bank, yeah reasonably it could do with a slight points drop or a little buff, I think the banner and horn are a typo honestly and will be FAQ'd to 1in5

[Squark]

Something had been bugging me for a while, and I finally got around to doing the math, and it confirmed my suspensions. Sequitors empowering their maces do more damage than Vanquishers, even vs. a unit of 10+ models (9.33 wounds before saves vs. 10 wounds before saves). That feels awkward for Vanquishers, especially because the general consensus is that Sequitors are overpriced.