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Vanquishers, Useless or Useful?


DooomRider

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Hi All,

I've been looking through the new tome and to be fair the new units and the reworked older units all seem viable, however it appears as if many people believe Vanquishers have no real place within the army. I disagree having looked at their stats and doing some mathhammer they seem a reasonable unit since in the majority of cases they be doing 3/4 attacks each which makes them quite effective as "mini-hammer" units, for a generally aggressive melee army they seem like a practical choice especially as they seem to compete with sequitors specifically setup for maximum damage and outperform other battleline units in terms of damage

 

What are people's thoughts?

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They aren't strictly terrible. Their real problem is that they're very weak on the low end.

Facing a monster, hero, or 2-3 elite unit, they will flounder. Same with a 4-man unit of Ogors. At that level, they suffer both offensively and defensively, whereas other units don't. 

That said, they truly will shine against factions with lots of 5-10 man units.

I think ultimately the problem is that you're paying precious points for a unit that can be hard-countered by a bad matchup or clever opponent, and there are other options that are simply more reliable no matter what they're facing.

Finally, their built-in synergies don't work well together. If you take a unit of 10+, you get a banner that allows you to successfully Rally models back on a 5+. A great ability, but Vanquishers only have 1" reach, meaning that those 5+ extra models you paid points for can't actually do anything.

Now with all that said, I fully intend to buy a bunch of them and try them out. The models are fantastic, they'll still be good in certain metas, and FAQs, points reductions, and rules changes are a possibility.

Edited by OkayestDM
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Even at max bonus (4 attacks for vanquisher) you need 8 of them all hitting the target, which is hard due to coherency + 1" range, to outdamage 10 Vindictors (who have 2" range). And this is Vs 5+ saves or worse, cause against better saves Vindictors are still ahead. So I don't even see them outperforming in terms of damage in a best case scenario. Then you remember they also have a worse save and cost essentially the same.

Edited by Marcvs
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20 hours ago, OkayestDM said:

Facing a monster, hero, or 2-3 elite unit, they will flounder. Same with a 4-man unit of Ogors. At that level, they suffer both offensively and defensively, whereas other units don't. 

That said, they truly will shine against factions with lots of 5-10 man units.

Finally, their built-in synergies don't work well together. If you take a unit of 10+, you get a banner that allows you to successfully Rally models back on a 5+. A great ability, but Vanquishers only have 1" reach, meaning that those 5+ extra models you paid points for can't actually do anything.

On your top and middle point I'm seeing most factions with 5-10 man units with minimums edging towards 10 over 5 so I feel like they will perform well,

I get your bottom point, I feel like they'll get moved to 1 in 5 personally but that's my gut feeling

17 hours ago, Marcvs said:

Even at max bonus (4 attacks for vanquisher) you need 8 of them all hitting the target, which is hard due to coherency + 1" range, to outdamage 10 Vindictors (who have 2" range). And this is Vs 5+ saves or worse, cause against better saves Vindictors are still ahead. So I don't even see them outperforming in terms of damage in a best case scenario. Then you remember they also have a worse save and cost essentially the same.

I feel like this unit shines in MSU format whereas vindictors work as a block of 10, I've played a few games with vindictors and I feel they are ****** honestly, my liberators and sequitors outperform them in most cases with them needing extra support to make them the defensive block unit

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I honestly wish that they had swapped the Mortal Wounds and Rally abilities.

With 2" range, you're well served to have 10 Vindictors anyway, so getting a bonus to rally a unit that will likely be used to cap objectives would be nice.

Similarly, Vanquishers with MW on 6s would become a much more efficient and useful hammer, and would still pose an appreciable threat against elite or single model units.

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1 hour ago, DooomRider said:

On your top and middle point I'm seeing most factions with 5-10 man units with minimums edging towards 10 over 5 so I feel like they will perform well,

I get your bottom point, I feel like they'll get moved to 1 in 5 personally but that's my gut feeling

I feel like this unit shines in MSU format whereas vindictors work as a block of 10, I've played a few games with vindictors and I feel they are ****** honestly, my liberators and sequitors outperform them in most cases with them needing extra support to make them the defensive block unit

Vanquishers in 5 at max attacks do the same damage (+0.5 Vs a 4+, +1.2 Vs a 6+) as 5 liberators, while costing more, being less resistant and not having access to the bonus on rally -and this is without counting lay low the tyrants 🤷‍♂️

Edited by Marcvs
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1 hour ago, DooomRider said:

I feel like this unit shines in MSU format whereas vindictors work as a block of 10, I've played a few games with vindictors and I feel they are ****** honestly, my liberators and sequitors outperform them in most cases with them needing extra support to make them the defensive block unit

Kind of unrelated to the topic, but I'm rather liking the idea of a unit of 5 Libs directly in front of a unit of 5 vindictors rather than a block of 10 anything to hold points. This way you are almost certain not to lose the whole blob of 10 on a charge from something big and scary, and the vindictors can still do damage from behind the liberators. It's two units rather than one of course, but I don't think you were really using all out attack on them anyway.

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22 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Vanquishers in 5 at max attacks do the same damage (+0.5 Vs a 4+, +1.2 Vs a 6+) as 5 liberators, while costing more, being less resistant and not having access to the bonus on rally -and this is without counting lay low the tyrants 🤷‍♂️

okay... I feel like you really don't like the unit. You've said so yourself that this unit that's only 10 points more and slightly outperforms in terms of raw damage. Less resistant yes if you compare shields to them whereas with dual weapons they are the same and the vanquishers outperform them by more than a small margin, I'm not sure where you are getting you maths from, as this is my maths and the difference is noticeable 

Save Vanquisher vs 10+   liberators

2+      3.11                           2.22

3+      4.67                          3.33

4+     6.22                          4.44

5+     7.78                           5.56

6+     9.33                          6.67

-      9.33                            6.67

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2 hours ago, DooomRider said:

okay... I feel like you really don't like the unit. You've said so yourself that this unit that's only 10 points more and slightly outperforms in terms of raw damage. Less resistant yes if you compare shields to them whereas with dual weapons they are the same and the vanquishers outperform them by more than a small margin, I'm not sure where you are getting you maths from, as this is my maths and the difference is noticeable 

Save Vanquisher vs 10+   liberators

2+      3.11                           2.22

3+      4.67                          3.33

4+     6.22                          4.44

5+     7.78                           5.56

6+     9.33                          6.67

-      9.33                            6.67

You're 100% right, my bad, I had given the libs an aspirational 3+ to wound.

(Of course I compare them to liberators with shields, that's how they are run in 99% of cases)

So, in the absolutely best case scenario (fighting 10 men unit) the vanquishers do more damage -in the best case scenario for liberators as well this is largely mitigated by the mortal wounds from lay low the tyrants. In the worst case scenario their damage is actually lower than liberators before lay low the tyrants.

Honestly I think they are really bad and have no place, unless you're fighting large units all the time in your meta. But if they work for you, all the better and yay for variety!

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7 hours ago, Marcvs said:

You're 100% right, my bad, I had given the libs an aspirational 3+ to wound.

(Of course I compare them to liberators with shields, that's how they are run in 99% of cases)

So, in the absolutely best case scenario (fighting 10 men unit) the vanquishers do more damage -in the best case scenario for liberators as well this is largely mitigated by the mortal wounds from lay low the tyrants. In the worst case scenario their damage is actually lower than liberators before lay low the tyrants.

Honestly I think they are really bad and have no place, unless you're fighting large units all the time in your meta. But if they work for you, all the better and yay for variety!

No worries dude, I was worried my maths was off, I may be incorrect here but their bonus activates at 5+ models and certainly in my meta that is the most common unit type. I usually see units of 5+ and 10+ models roaming with very little with a lower body count though obviously it's a meta by meta basis for this. At 3 attacks each they still match liberators with lay low the tyrants only boosting them to outperform at 3+ save or better. This is my math between vanquishers vs liberators with shields (prime with grand weapon and lay low added), still the outperforming on the most common saves (4+ or worse) and the difference being negligible at higher saves but at the cost of survivability

5 hours ago, boombyeyeah said:

With a lot being said why they are quite a niche unit, i think stormcast doesnt need a hammer battleline right now, and thats what they are trying to be. Our new battletome has several heavy dmg hammer units that do the job very well. 

Indeed, they are effectively discount decimators but in my opinion they have a place as I've found our greatest weakness is getting swamped in tarpits (I got stuck against pink horrors in my last game which meant my units weren't fighting where I needed them) and this unit is a cheap affordable counter to tarpits in my opinion

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1 hour ago, DooomRider said:

Indeed, they are effectively discount decimators but in my opinion they have a place as I've found our greatest weakness is getting swamped in tarpits (I got stuck against pink horrors in my last game which meant my units weren't fighting where I needed them) and this unit is a cheap affordable counter to tarpits in my opinion

I would agree, with the caveat that people's mileage will vary. Against a 10-man-unit meta, you will absolutely get great value out of them. If all your friends play Beastclaw Raiders or Mega Gargants on the other hand . . . I guess they'll make a nice speed bump?

In the end, that's their biggest drawback. In the strictly competitive sense, you're gambling with points that might shine, but could just as easily be a waste of space in a fairly elite army. Most competitive players can't afford that kind of relative unreliability in a unit.

On the casual scene, they're fine. Even excellent, depending on whether or not you have an idea of what you're opponent will be fielding. 

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We seriously need a battleline discussion thread to discuss the merits of all battleline units. 

Anyway, IMO Vanquishers are currently somewhat over-costed, If they drop 10 points (same as liberators), I can see MSU units of 5 being used in lieu of liberators, if the meta shifts to more horde armies. 

The rally is a truly pointless ability though. +1 bravery, +1 charge, or whatever would have been more interesting. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Evantas said:

We seriously need a battleline discussion thread to discuss the merits of all battleline units. 

Anyway, IMO Vanquishers are currently somewhat over-costed, If they drop 10 points (same as liberators), I can see MSU units of 5 being used in lieu of liberators, if the meta shifts to more horde armies. 

The rally is a truly pointless ability though. +1 bravery, +1 charge, or whatever would have been more interesting. 

 

if the rally bonus was a bit stronger (4+ instead of 5+) they would also have another niche in being useful vs shooting armies, forcing them to overkill vanquishers if they don't want to see them coming back

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4 hours ago, Evantas said:

The rally is a truly pointless ability though. +1 bravery, +1 charge, or whatever would have been more interesting. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Marcvs said:

if the rally bonus was a bit stronger (4+ instead of 5+) they would also have another niche in being useful vs shooting armies, forcing them to overkill vanquishers if they don't want to see them coming back

have to agree, and since we know they're units of 5s it's even weirder that you need ten to even have a banner... there's a couple different one-rule-change ways to improve Vanquishers a lot and it sucks! like hey, maybe Vanquishers get mortals on 6s and Vindictors get 5+ ward

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3 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

 

have to agree, and since we know they're units of 5s it's even weirder that you need ten to even have a banner... there's a couple different one-rule-change ways to improve Vanquishers a lot and it sucks! like hey, maybe Vanquishers get mortals on 6s and Vindictors get 5+ ward

my honest hope before they came out was for their profile to be simply 2/3+/3+/-1/2 (basically a unit of grandweapons), with a 4+ save. Now that would have filled a niche of fragile offensive battleline.

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On 10/2/2021 at 5:19 PM, OkayestDM said:

Finally, their built-in synergies don't work well together. If you take a unit of 10+, you get a banner that allows you to successfully Rally models back on a 5+. A great ability, but Vanquishers only have 1" reach, meaning that those 5+ extra models you paid points for can't actually do anything.

It's for attrition combat. There are a lot of other units in the army who will want to swing early in the combat phase more than them, but vanquishers can safely be picked later in the phase because when the enemy kills models there's no loss of offense; those guys weren't attacking anyways. The unit is self-sufficient and can just go off on their own without needing support from the rest of the army, while being offensive enough to deal meaningful damage (especially with exploding when they die) and disproportionately difficult to fully eliminate. Two surviving vanquishers left alone can easily multiply into a threat again within a round as rally can happen in both players' hero phases.

For such a straightforward stat block the unit is surprisingly high on the skill curve to get good use of them.

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8 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

It's for attrition combat. There are a lot of other units in the army who will want to swing early in the combat phase more than them, but vanquishers can safely be picked later in the phase because when the enemy kills models there's no loss of offense; those guys weren't attacking anyways. The unit is self-sufficient and can just go off on their own without needing support from the rest of the army, while being offensive enough to deal meaningful damage (especially with exploding when they die) and disproportionately difficult to fully eliminate. Two surviving vanquishers left alone can easily multiply into a threat again within a round as rally can happen in both players' hero phases.

For such a straightforward stat block the unit is surprisingly high on the skill curve to get good use of them.

1. Picking them later can be counter-intuitive, given that they perform better against 10 man units - if your main hammers go first, will there still be ten men?

2. You say they are self-sufficient, but then also talk about rallying them, which requires a CP.

Weird unit. Can't see it myself, but will give them a go.

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