HELP!: trying aos 3 with old DE models, needs help making list

[shinankoku]

Hello Group Mind 

((TL/DR version of this post: help me, effectively a newbie (I last played WH in 2012), put together a 1500 point dark elf (aelf?) list. Skip to the last paragraph to see my initial list, please critique.))

After a seven year rage quit, I think I’m ready to try AoS 3e. I want to take my old army - Dark Elves - and make them AoS complaint. The think is I don’t want to invest any more cash than I already have (at least now), and I’d like to be at least be kind of competitive (if possible). I want to make a 1500 point list from the ground up, at least to start. What I have in my collection is as follows:

Sorceress on black dragon

One unbuilt black dragon and rider kit

One 10 man unit a spears and one 30 man unit a spears

7 dark riders 

One 10 man unit of Xbows and one 20 unit of Xbows

one twenty man unit of Corsairs 

A ridiculous number of Cold One cav (more than 30)

10 executioners

30 black guard

2 Hydras

An assortment of characters: at least 2 sorceresses (and a sorcerer! That’s how old some of this army is ..) and seven or eight assassins (and a Beast-Lord on manticore who’ll never see the battlefield again 🤬)

Other units like (lots of) witch elves, artillery, and skirmishers which don’t have rules anymore or I can’t take in a CoS list.

So honestly, my first idea for a list is something like a Dark Lord on Dragon (300), 2 10 man Cold One Cav (300 X 2), 2 hydras (170 X 2), 2 sorceresses (160) and a unit of dark shards (100) for 1500 points. How does this list sound? Also, if you’re not already bored of my post, what would you do next for another 500 points? Thanks so much in advance everybody!!

[SentinelGuy]

Ok, so firstly there are rules in the Morathi book which allows you to play as a city that combines all the legacy dark elves, so you can still use the witch elves you have if you want to. 

Secondly, there is a new Generals Handbook coming in a few weeks which will introduce new points for all units, and supposedly this will shake things up quite a bit.

At least at the moment, things aren't looking too great for dark elves. Don't let me put you off trying them, but as it stands, with what we know about  the new edition of the game, they're not really competitive. That's not to say that they're unplayable, they just don't really have any standout units.

It's also a kick in the teeth that the witch elves are some of the weakest units in their faction as well.

The way that the new edition changes things is that now you start with your minimum size unit (10 minis on foot, 5 on horse/cold one, 1 for chariots). Then you have 4 reinforcement points you can spend at 2000 points. That means that only a maximum of 4 units can be increased in size to 20 infantry/10 cavalry/2 chariots. And beyond that only battleline choices can be increased again.

As dark elves kind of require larger units for most of their buffs, that puts them in a rather tricky position as at most you'll have 4 larger units. 

The good news is that not everything is terrible - the scourge runner chariots are pretty good as fast objective grabbers and chaff. The sorceress and sorceress on dragon can be useful and they work well with a large unit of black guard as they get them moving faster (although this can also be done with the generic command ability in the new rules). 

I've used cold one knights because they're the only normal sized heavy cavalry we have access to. Don't look at them as killers, they're basically a moving wall that is slightly faster than infantry and much better protected. 

If I had to choose between Dreadspears and Bleakswords, I would pick the Bleakswords 99% of the time as they're better in defence. Having said that, I use Dreadspears because I have the models and they're not that bad, although I would also consider using them as eternal guard as they're much better ruleswise.

Dark Riders never see play, but that could be because of how the last edition worked. Battleshock immunity is supposed to be harder to get, so their ability may see some limited use. 

You mentioned executioners - do you have the old marauder ones with axes? If you do then run them as Wildwood Rangers. Expect to see more monsters on the table in the new edition, so Rangers suddenly got quite useful.

The Dreadlord on dragon is pretty cool in some armies. If you run Living City and give him a crossbow then he can pop up and charge with their special city rules. Makes him quite useful and he's pretty sturdy for an elf. With the new monster abilities he's also the best way of delivering a roar at an opportune moment.

The other city that they also benefit from is Anvilgard. They get drakeblood curses which actually makes the Hydra and Kharibdis worth taking. The spell lore is also nice for this city. Take a sorceress on dragon and a coven unit to keep up with her, sacrifice one of the dark elves and then have her cast the spray spell to reduce enemy armour. You can also do the same with a sorceress on foot if you use the spell portal. 

Assassin's aren't the best, but taking one as a general unlocks Shadow Warriors as battleline, and they're quite fun to use for hiding in cover and taking potshots with rending bows.

A lot of this is subject to change with the new points coming out. Those changes could make or break a lot of the units.

One thing I will say is that playing pure dark elves can be hard. Don't be afraid to use your units as something else. Phoenix Guard are currently much better than Black Guard for example.

Edited June 17, 2021 by SentinelGuy

[shinankoku]

Thanks for this. Not super familiar with AoS but I bought the “Cities ..” book and had the feeling that GW probably nerfed any model over ten years old. It’s their MO and one of the reasons I rage quit. Recently I’ve been watching Ash on GmG and actually want to try the new ed … I just don’t want to spend any money until I’ve played a bit. Sigh. Ah well … I’ll go through with my list and see how I like it. If I do … I’ll probably buy Dominion play stomcast 🤷‍♂️

[shinankoku]

Also, amusingly, my Black Guard *are* the old axe-wielding dudes. 

[SentinelGuy]

The game can be fun even with the old stuff. My current Tempests Eye army is made up of old high elf chariots (converted into scourge runners), glade guard spearmen (as eternal guard), a converted cauldron of blood (as a hurricanum), loads of old 5th ed glade riders (as drakespawn knights and wild riders), waywatchers (as shadow warriors). Plus a newer runepriest and 30 Irondrakes. It's not too bad overall, but it relies on the Irondrakes and wild riders to do the damage. 

It's really going to come down to how the points end up as to how good or bad Cities armies are in this new edition. The cities themselves do seem to be quite good.

[Lord of the Isle]

Use ALL your old models with imaginative fun proxying! I will suggest how in more detail when I have time if someone hasn’t already

[Lord of the Isle]

Build second Black Dragon as a Dreadlord

The 7-8 Assassins (respect btw!) could be Shadow Warriors, allied DoK Khainite Shadowstalkers with another model or two found somewhere (one of your Sorceresses or Witches as a Shroud Queen? Or just one or two of your miscellaneous skirmishers? ), or you could field just one as, er, an Assassin

Use Stormcast rules for your Bolt Throwers

Skirmishers as more Shadow Warriors or Shadowstalkers

Beastmaster on Manticore - hardest but coolest. Could count as Sorc / Dreadlord on Dragon or FG general or even battlemage! on Griffon 

I think everyone else can play themselves

Then go Cities with DoK allies and you’re sorted. Now just about makes sense in lore again

Next 500 points depends if you want to stay Dark Elves only or go in a more varied Cities direction? Like if you made the Beastmaster an FG general you could back him up with Freeguild, whether actual humans or elf converted proxies (you could even mess with some of your Cold One knights in some way to represent Demigryphs? Or convert new aelves on demis)

BTW the witches would probably be more effective all fielded as shadowstalkers too!

And - If you don’t mind about losing artillery and don’t want to mix in Freeguild etc, maybe consider Har Kuron to get MORE Shadowstalkers in!!

Edited June 19, 2021 by Lord of the Isle

[Zeblasky]

On 6/17/2021 at 9:50 PM, shinankoku said:

Thanks for this. Not super familiar with AoS but I bought the “Cities ..” book and had the feeling that GW probably nerfed any model over ten years old. It’s their MO and one of the reasons I rage quit. Recently I’ve been watching Ash on GmG and actually want to try the new ed … I just don’t want to spend any money until I’ve played a bit. Sigh. Ah well … I’ll go through with my list and see how I like it. If I do … I’ll probably buy Dominion play stomcast 🤷‍♂️

Well, while AoS 2.0 and 3.0 balance is not perfect (poor Beasts of Chaos and Slaanesh), GW currently does not have a prejudice against old models. Seraphon was made of only WFB models (and a lot of old and ugly ones at that), yet that did not stop them from getting into S tier. GW balancing prejudice right now is more like a Russian Roulette.

 

Cities though were somewhere in the A-B tier overall for most of AoS 2.0 We weren't the OP S tier meta at any time, but we could fight well enough with most threats. Dark Elves though... They did have a meta defining unit for a time (Scourgerunners), but not anymore (and I do not think that you want almost all of your army be Scourgerunners x) ). Still, I can give a breakdown of current DE units. Just be aware, that there could be a big FAQ soon, that can change a lot of these things. And do not forget that old DE stuff right now is divided between 4 subfactions.

 

Strong units:

Dreadlord - is actually a very competent monster now. With lance and shield setup he's decent all around, slightly faster than other monsters and his breath attack is a good help for horde clearing. In Living City Dreadlord with lance and crossbow can become Sonic the Dragon, as you can easily do a 28 inch flying move with him for a price of 1 CP.

Sorceress - okay cheap caster solo, good if paired with some DE chaff for those +2 to cast Sacrifice bonuses. Her Command ability is pretty great for Darkling Covens, giving them a good boost in mobility.

Darkshards - their crossbows are pretty much MP-5s. Slightly short range, can move and shoot without penalties, have lots of shots, but no rend. If you need a unit, that can freely move and shoot at low armour, they are your guys. They suffered a 15% point increase in AoS 3.0 though, but at the same time they benefit quite well from Unleash Hell even if you charge them directly.

Black Guard - easy to buff unit, that will get the job done. Nothing much more to say here.

 

Okay units:

Bleakswords/Dreadspears - decent chaff, good target for Sorceress Sacrifice.

Hydra - if you want to use Monster Rampages, but do not want to invest much into Monsters, Hydras are perfect. You can easily squeese 2-3 of them into your buld without much worry. And they heal every battle round, making them good for attrition fights.

Drakespawn Knights - mobile and tanky tarpit. Won't kill much, but can hold their own on objective quite well. Really enjoy Dreadlord CA, not sure you should take Drakespawns without him.

 

From meh to bad: the rest. Almost everything in DE former roster can be made to work, but some stuff is simply better.

 

Special mentions:

Assasin - on his own he is a pretty meh hero, useful mostly for unlocking Shadowblades battleline (which can be useful). But! With certain artefacts he can be much more deadly. For example, take him in Hammerhal with Saint's blade and pop him from a unit on the objective. Now you have a hero with 6 attacks, that are -2 rend and 2 damage.

Sorceress on a Black dragon - After the Battlemage on a Griffon, probably the second worst unit in Cities. I wish she could be better, but compared to dreadlord she has -1 to save and almost nonexistant combat prowess of the rider just so she could be a wizard. Don't use her unless you really want to or if GW rewrites her warscroll.

 

Choosing Cities - honestly, you have good choices here. Anvilguard seems like an obvious choice, and it is a good City for former DE. It has DE monsters specific upgrades here, Vitrioc Spray plus Darkshards equals a lot of dead stuff, bravery bomb can give your opponent -5 to his (totally useless versus Ossiarch though). But you can try almost every other City as well. Besides, I'd guess, the Phoenixium.

 

General advice - Cities have a lot of other non DE units and you can achieve the best results by combining them. But it's purely up to you,  and you have enough options to make a decent army as it is.