Gotrek and Hammerers

[Hugonauts]

How does Gotrek's Avatar of Grimnir special rule interact with the Shattering Blow special rule of Hammerers (and other such abilities, which allow attacks to inflict mortal wounds in addition to normal damage)?

 

Would each roll of 6 to wound inflict both a wound and a mortal wound, because each 6 is considered to be both an attack and a separate instance of the Shattering Blow ability? Will Shattering Blow inflict at most a single mortal wound, because it is one ability? Or, will Shattering Blow cause the wound to deal both a wound and a mortal wound, but be subsequently reduced to only 1 point of damage between them, because it is a single attack?

 

Imagine a unit of Hammerers attacks Gotrek, rolling 10 successful wound rolls; five of these wound rolls are 3s, and five of them are 6s. Which (if any) of the following would be correct?

 

- Gotrek suffers 10 wounds, and 5 mortal wounds.

- Gotrek suffers 10 wounds, and 1 mortal wound.

- Gotrek suffers 5 wounds and 5 mortal wounds. 

[zilberfrid]

The damage inflicted by the attack is more than 1 (if not saved), so it gets reduced to 1. 

[GrimDork]

I would say that the damage from each great hammer attack is 1 (cannot be reduced any further).

And the damage from the Shattering strike ability is 1 mortal wound (again can not be reduced any further).

In my mind they are 2 separate sources of damage, attack & ability.

[Skreech Verminking]

Well Gotrek has the ability that reduces any mortal wounds suffered by an ability to 1.

the same goes for damage.

in this case however, he would suffer the full number of wounds, since the hammerers are already only doing a mortal wound with there ability and since their damage is also only 1, every unsaved wound will be a life point taken.
also mortal wounds aren’t part of the damage characteristic

Edited May 28, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[GrimDork]

So in the example you gave it would be the first option,

10 wounds (subject to 5+ save, then 3+ after save) and 5 mortal wounds (with 3+ save).

 

[zilberfrid]

9 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

So in the example you gave it would be the first option,

10 wounds (subject to 5+ save, then 3+ after save) and 5 mortal wounds (with 3+ save).

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well Gotrek has the ability that reduces any mortal wounds suffered by an ability to 1.

the same goes for damage.

in this case however, he would suffer the full number of wounds, since the hammerers are already only doing a mortal wound with there ability and since their damage is also only 1, every unsaved wound will be a life point taken.
also mortal wounds aren’t part of the damage characteristic

Are these mortal wounds not part of the damage of the attack? I read it as an extra damage to the attack (that is resolved differently, but still from the same attack).

If that's the case, I'd say do roll for each mortal wound for the shoulderplate, when it goes through leave the save for the damage, if it doesn't, save and aftersave.

[zilberfrid]

20 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

I would say that the damage from each great hammer attack is 1 (cannot be reduced any further).

And the damage from the Shattering strike ability is 1 mortal wound (again can not be reduced any further).

In my mind they are 2 separate sources of damage, attack & ability.

 

The wording of the hammerers is that the *attack* deals mw in addition. They thus deal a maximum damage of 2, one wound and one mortal wound.

Gotrek states that damage (not wounds or mortal wounds) of an attack or ability is reduced to 1.

Damage consists of unsaved wounds and mortal wounds (in Gotreks case, they get a second save, but still). It is not the damage characteristic.

Edited May 28, 2020 by zilberfrid

[Skreech Verminking]

5 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

 

The wording of the hammerers is that the *attack* deals mw in addition. They thus deal a maximum damage of 2, one wound and one mortal wound.

Gotrek states that damage (not wounds or mortal wounds) of an attack or ability is reduced to 1.

He reduces mortal wounds suffered by an ability to one, but their ability only throws out a single mortal wound each round.

As for damage mortal wounds aren’t a damage thing.

they are not a part of any damage characteristic, and never have been.

so technically the damage of a lucky hammer strike won’t be reduced to one but eill be kept at the minimum of a single mortal wound and a single damage

[zilberfrid]

1 minute ago, Skreech Verminking said:

He reduces mortal wounds suffered by an ability to one, but their ability only throws out a single mortal wound each round.

As for damage mortal wounds aren’t a damage thing.

they are not a part of any damage characteristic, and never have been.

so technically the damage of a lucky hammer strike won’t be reduced to one but eill be kept at the minimum of a single mortal wound and a single damage

I added a bit later.

Gotrek affects the damage inflicted, not the damage characteristic

[Skreech Verminking]

Just now, zilberfrid said:

I added a bit later.

Gotrek affects the damage inflicted, not the damage characteristic

Yep that may change a few things.

and in this case I have have no idea anymore.

I think we’re better of asking the rule team

[zilberfrid]

1 minute ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yep that may change a few things.

and in this case I have have no idea anymore.

I think we’re better off asking the rule team

That may be wise.

[GrimDork]

Just further on this, shattering strike is listed in the abilities section of the warscroll, hence my comment about 2 sources of damage, attack and ability. 

Definitely a good idea to check, but I can’t see how else it would play. Otherwise, which would you choose to take away, the wound or mortal wound? Without clarification who gets to decide?

[zilberfrid]

3 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

Just further on this, shattering strike is listed in the abilities section of the warscroll, hence my comment about 2 sources of damage, attack and ability. 

Definitely a good idea to check, but I can’t see how else it would play. Otherwise, which would you choose to take away, the wound or mortal wound? Without clarification who gets to decide?

It's damage inflicted, not wounds or mortal wounds:

1 wound, gets saved. One mortal wound, does not get saved in aftersave: 1 damage from the attack (no reduction).

1 wound, not saved. One mortal wound, not saved: 2 damage from the attack, which gets reduced to 1 damage.

1 wound, not saved. One mortal wound, saved: 1 damage from the attack, no reduction neccessary.

[GrimDork]

Doesn’t Gotrek affects damage inflicted from each separate attack, ability or spell?

My reasoning:
great hammer attack hits with a 6, wounds, save failed, after save failed = 1 damage from the attack

shattering strike ability triggers on 6, after save failed = 1 damage from the ability.

2 separate sources of damage.

I see how it can be reasoned the other way in the wording of the shattering strike ability, but in play it would be very clunky to keep track of which hits came from where. Each hit of 6 and the potential resulting wound roll and 2? after saves would need to be rolled separately to know which hits should be reduced to 1.  Max size unit of hammerers = big headache.

If you get a reply  on this I’d be interested to know.

[zilberfrid]

21 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

Doesn’t Gotrek affects damage inflicted from each separate attack, ability or spell?

My reasoning:
great hammer attack hits with a 6, wounds, save failed, after save failed = 1 damage from the attack

shattering strike ability triggers on 6, after save failed = 1 damage from the ability.

2 separate sources of damage.

I see how it can be reasoned the other way in the wording of the shattering strike ability, but in play it would be very clunky to keep track of which hits came from where. Each hit of 6 and the potential resulting wound roll and 2? after saves would need to be rolled separately to know which hits should be reduced to 1.  Max size unit of hammerers = big headache.

If you get a reply  on this I’d be interested to know.

These summaries suffer from over abbreviations.

Hammerer's ability modifies the attack "that attack deals 1 mw in addition". So the same attack.

[GrimDork]

2 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

These summaries suffer from over abbreviations.

Hammerer's ability modifies the attack "that attack deals 1 mw in addition". So the same attack.

Agree it’s not clear. Not written with Gotreks ability in mind.

Would you agree tho a bit of a nightmare to play using what you’re suggesting?

[zilberfrid]

26 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

Agree it’s not clear. Not written with Gotreks ability in mind.

Would you agree tho a bit of a nightmare to play using what you’re suggesting?

I'd say save the mortal wounds first, if they don't save, don't roll for regular damage. You only need one.

40 thunderers are not going to be within an inch.

[GrimDork]

But how would you know which hits caused what damage?

1 hit could trigger a mortal then fail to wound. Or could then wound as well. Or wound and not cause a mortal. The only way of working this out would be to roll all wound/save/after saves individually, or in pairs to know the source of the damage. Whether it was from an unsaved wound, an unsaved mortal wound and if either of those came from the same initial attack?

[GrimDork]

3 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I'd say save the mortal wounds first, if they don't save, don't roll for regular damage. You only need one.

40 thunderers are not going to be within an inch.

Just re-read your post. Sorry, get what you mean about rolling the mortal wound saves first. Still requires a few stages/dice pools on the go.

[NauticalSoup]

Definitely needs an FAQ, but I think this is as close as we'll get to a workable solution. Just comes down to if you want to treat the extra hammerer damage as sourced from an attack or from an ability, which is semantic because the way it's worded means its both.

Either way the hammerers aren't generating their full damage potential which is probably for the best so you don't have to get into arguments about abilities that dodge Gotrek's rule.