Meeting egagement questions (evocations and reserves)

[Cilibeo]

1)  Does deadly territory work for evocations?

 

2) How i must deploy reserves with special rules)? For example runesmiter's magmic tunneling. If this model is in the main body in the scenario "the center ground" and i want teleport him. I declare who the runesmiter is in reserve at the end of my first turn (then i can deploy it in my second turn movement phase) or viceversa I can deploy it directly at the end of first turn?

[EMMachine]

9 minutes ago, Cilibeo said:

1)  Does deadly territory work for evocations?

Summoning is not a movement, instead it's set-up.

And the Deadly rule is only triggered by normal moves and chargemoves. Even pile in doesn't trigger it.

9 minutes ago, Cilibeo said:

2) How i must deploy reserves with special rules)? For example runesmiter's magmic tunneling. If this model is in the main body in the scenario "the center ground" and i want teleport him. I declare who the runesmiter is in reserve at the end of my first turn (then i can deploy it in my second turn movement phase) or viceversa I can deploy it directly at the end of first turn? 

The rule takes place at the end of the movement phase. So if you place the unit in Mainbody it can arrive at the end of the second turn movement phase.

[Cilibeo]

8 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

Summoning is not a movement, instead it's set-up.

And the Deadly rule is only triggered by normal moves and chargemoves. Even pile in doesn't trigger it.

 

Hi EMMachine thanks for your answer! In the first question i refer to deadly territory deployment rule p. 75

Quote

When reserve units are set up on the battlefield during a meeting engagement, they must treat enemy arrival edges in the same way as an enemy model. Usually this will mean that they cannot be set up within 9" of an enemy arrival edge

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Cilibeo

[EMMachine]

1 hour ago, Cilibeo said:

Hi EMMachine thanks for your answer! In the first question i refer to deadly territory deployment rule p. 75

 

Oh, you meant that rule. Summoned units are basicly reserve units, so yes, they have to keep distance. That's the purpose of that rule.

[Isotop]

7 hours ago, EMMachine said:

Oh, you meant that rule. Summoned units are basicly reserve units, so yes, they have to keep distance. That's the purpose of that rule.

I am pretty sure that summoned units are, per definition, not reserves:

 

"Reserves are units that are part of your army, but which have an ability that allows you to set them up in a location other than on the battlefield and deploy them later once the battle has begun. Setting up a reserve unit is not considered a move for the unit, but it may restrict a unit’s ability to move in the same turn. Any reserves that have not been set up when the battle ends are treated as if they had been slain when you are working out which side won the battle."

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 2)

 

Assuming what the purpose of a rule often leads to misconceptions. That is why RAW (if possible) is the correct way to "interpret" the rules.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Isotop

[EMMachine]

16 minutes ago, Isotop said:

I am pretty sure that summoned units are, per definition, not reserves:

 

"Reserves are units that are part of your army, but which have an ability that allows you to set them up in a location other than on the battlefield and deploy them later once the battle has begun. Setting up a reserve unit is not considered a move for the unit, but it may restrict a unit’s ability to move in the same turn. Any reserves that have not been set up when the battle ends are treated as if they had been slain when you are working out which side won the battle."

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 2)

 

Assuming what the purpose of a rule often leads to misconceptions. That is why RAW (if possible) is the correct way to "interpret" the rules.

Well, deadly territory says that the units must treat the enemy arrival edges in the same way as an enemy model. And most of the summoned units have a "more than 9" from any enemy units" rule. I don't think that they should be treated in other ways.

[Isotop]

25 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

Well, deadly territory says that the units must treat the enemy arrival edges in the same way as an enemy model. And most of the summoned units have a "more than 9" from any enemy units" rule. I don't think that they should be treated in other ways.

But the rule applies to reserves. does it not? I do not have to book in front of me right now, so someone quoting the whole thing would be helpful.

Summoned units are not reserves.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Isotop

[EMMachine]

14 minutes ago, Isotop said:

But the rule applies to reserves. does it not? I do not have to book in front of me right now, so someone quoting the whole thing would be helpful.

Summoned units are not reserves.

When I look at the summoning rules of Slaanesh or Khorne for example there summoning rule says

Quote

..., you can summon one unit from the list below onto the battlefield and add it to your army.

So that part of the Reserve rule is basicly fulfilled:

Quote

Reserves are units that are part of your army, but which have an ability that allows you to set them up in a location other than on the battlefield and deploy them later once the battle has begun

They are part of the army but set-up later after the battle has begun.

And it is the only rule that states that set up isn't a move so that hole would open up again.

[King Taloren]

The difference between reserves and summoning however is that technically the summoned unit does not exist until the summoning is done. You do not count it as a unit in reserve nor is it part of your army list. It is simply a unit that comes out of “magic” from summoning points.

[Isotop]

54 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

When I look at the summoning rules of Slaanesh or Khorne for example there summoning rule says

So that part of the Reserve rule is basicly fulfilled:

They are part of the army but set-up later after the battle has begun.

And it is the only rule that states that set up isn't a move so that hole would open up again.

"Reserves are units that are part of your army"

Summoned units are not part of your army before you summon them and put them onto the battlefield (as you pointed out). 

And more importantly:

 "[...] which have an ability that allows you to set them up in a location other than on the battlefield and deploy them later once the battle has begun."

Summoned units do not have an abililty to set them up in another location. The reserve rules explicitly talk about units you put on the side during deployment (such as a Stormcast Eternals unit put into the Celestial Realm or a unit of Idoneth put aside with a Soulscryer). 

Maybe you see something in the rules I am missing. As far as I can see they are pretty clear, though.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Isotop

[Cilibeo]

On 8/8/2019 at 7:00 PM, Isotop said:

"Reserves are units that are part of your army"

Summoned units are not part of your army before you summon them and put them onto the battlefield (as you pointed out). 

And more importantly:

 "[...] which have an ability that allows you to set them up in a location other than on the battlefield and deploy them later once the battle has begun."

Summoned units do not have an abililty to set them up in another location. The reserve rules explicitly talk about units you put on the side during deployment (such as a Stormcast Eternals unit put into the Celestial Realm or a unit of Idoneth put aside with a Soulscryer). 

Maybe you see something in the rules I am missing. As far as I can see they are pretty clear, though.

So p. 74
“Any units that cannot be set up at their contingent’s arrival time for any reason are destroyed”.

Then a player with evocations can destroy a contingent just preventing me to deploy it? (I think 20 ghoul for FeC 40” or 10 ungor for BoC 20”).

I think this must be faqed.

[King Taloren]

No it is perfectly fine. If they can somehow get to a point that they are deep enough into your territory that you cannot deploy anything that is just bad positioning on your part to allow it. Though I believe someone pointed out to me that there is no restrictions on how close you set up the contingent wave to enemy models so they would have to do some really major positioning to prevent you from deployment 

[Cilibeo]

Then, if is this case, I can deploy directly engaged ?

Edited August 9, 2019 by Cilibeo

[King Taloren]

I don’t have the book on hand, but I do know there isn’t any of the 9”  restrictions that could prevent a lot of the reserve deployment like deep striking. Though I do believe that was the case, that raw you can deploy in combat it is actually quite hard to prevent deployment without flooding the entire zone to ensure no models can be placed into the area. It is possible but highly unlikely given the size of the table and the square inches of area you have for deployment 

[Isotop]

13 hours ago, Cilibeo said:

So p. 74
“Any units that cannot be set up at their contingent’s arrival time for any reason are destroyed”.

Then a player with evocations can destroy a contingent just preventing me to deploy it? (I think 20 ghoul for FeC 40” or 10 ungor for BoC 20”).

I think this must be faqed.

Since your contingents are brought to the board at the end of your respective turn, you always have a  chance to react to anything placed within your deployment area. Alternatively you can deploy models next to your deployment area to partly block enemy units from being placed there via summoning/teleports.

In my view the bigger problem is that a bigger contigent will not be able to be placed within the rather smal 12"x3" deployment area in the first place.

Finally, remember that models not being able to be placed are slain, not units.