Mortal "Tzeentch Trident"

[Digdug]

After some lively debate on minimum unit sizes, I've had to go back and re-look how I intend to set up a Mortal Tzeentch list (recognize Mortal Tzeentch could use some help).  I have two lists I would like some critiques on for those willing to provide feedback.

Both lists have what I feel are three very dangerous "prongs" with the rest of the units providing support.  Both lists utilize the Fatesworn Warband.

Two of the prongs of the "Trident" are consistent; one is the Chaos Lord on Manticore w/ Artefact, one is a unit of 3x Gorebeast Chariots.  What differs between the lists is what I consider the third prong.

List 1: 

Fatesworn Warband - 120
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount - 140 (General, Mark of Tzeentch, Great Destroyer Command Trait, Chaos Talisman/Crown of Conquest)
Chaos Lord on Manticore - 300 (Mark of Tzeentch, Chaos Runeblade for Lance)
Chaos Sorcerer Lord - 140 (Mark of Tzeentch)
Sayl the Faithless - 160
Curseling, Lord of Tzeentch - 140
Chaos Warriors x10 - 180 (Mark of Tzeentch, Hand weapon and shield)
Chosen x9 - 320 (Mark of Tzeentch, Deployed as 9 for Fatesworn Scions of Change ward save)
Chaos Marauders (3 units) x10 - 180 (Mark of Tzeentch, 3x Battleline)
Chaos Gorebeast Chariots x3 - 300 (Mark of Tzeentch)
Total: 1980

With the Lord on Daemonic Mount command ability of +1 hit, and with the re-roll to charges giving a good chance at an 8+ on the charge, plus Daemonic Power from the Sorcerer Lord, and Mystic Shield from the Curseling, the Gorebeast Chariots turn into:
                                  (Atks/Hit/Wound/Rend/Dmg)
Lashing Whip -           6/3+/4+/-1/1
Chaos Greatblades -  9/3+/3+/-1/1 (leader hits on 2+)
Brutish Fists -             9(18)/3+/3+/-1/2

All with re-roll 1's to hit, wound and saves, which is now a 3+ save.  Sayl can also give the chariots 18" move and flight.  Also, an additional +1 to hit is possible due to the 5+ Unpredictable Destruction.

I feel like the chariots alone could wipe a Thundertusk or an Alarielle off the board in the blink of an eye following an 8"+ charge.

Similar buffs could be given to the Chaos Lord on Manticore (8 attacks from his dual weapons of sword/lance plus 5+D6 attacks from the Manticore) as well as the 9x Chosen (prong #3).

 

List 2:

Fatesworn Warband - 120
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount - 140 (General, Mark of Tzeentch, Great Destroyer Command Trait, Chaos Talisman/Crown of Conquest)
Chaos Lord on Manticore - 300 (Mark of Tzeentch, Chaos Runeblade for Lance)
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore - 240 (Mark of Tzeentch)
Ogroid Thaumaturge - 160
Curseling, Lord of Tzeentch - 140
Chaos Sorcerer Lord - 140 (Mark of Tzeentch)
Chaos Marauders x10 - 60 (Mark of Tzeentch, 1x Battleline)
Chaos Warriors (2 units) x20 - 360 (Mark of Tzeentch, 2x Battleline)
Chaos Gorebeast Chariots x3 - 300 (Mark of Tzeentch)
Chaos Familiars - 40
Total: 2000

The same things are possible with this list regarding the Chariots except Sayl is traded out for an Ogroid Thaumaturge and the Chosen get dropped in favor of more sustainability with the Warriors.

Prong 3 for this list is the direct damage from the casting; the Ogroid Thaumaturge Fire Blast spell and the Sorcerer Lord on Manticore Winds of Chaos spell.  Casting is further bolstered with the familiars by giving +1 to casting rolls to hit the higher casting requirements.  This list takes advantage of standoff while maintaining the threat of the Chariots and Lord on Manticore.  Further, Curseling seems like a great counter to enemy spellcasting with the chance of picking up a heal or direct damage spell from an enemy Wizard.

I'm trying to determine where these lists are going to struggle.  I've got some initial ideas but am curious about other's opinions.  Also, if I've incorrectly calculated something, please let me know.

[Arkiham]

If you have access to a balewind vortex they're very helpful. but apparently some tournaments ban them.

check into discussions on the manticore lord, as they are very unreliable. i tried what you mentioned and on the charge with the extra attack he still felt incredibly underwhelming so don't overly rely on him have a plan b if he flubs. 

i am considering running him khorne as the banner greatly benefits him ( adding 4!  attacks per banner ) but ill leave that for a topic discussion. 

i prefer army A. the massive move provided by the spell on the chariots is definitely going to want to be stopped so you can freely attempt to cast your other spells as many will let them go through, if not, an they let it go through an you cast it you'll be able to fly behind the enemy unit, an that's a flying charge also, so you can really position them into a place you want them and potentially take out a few squishies at the back 

he also contains the slaves to darkness keyword, so you could swap some other units out if you wanted the knights as battleline ( but it would dramatically change the army)

 

[daedalus81]

List 1
Those 3 units of marauders are going to be wasted points.  If you're ok with this then that's fine since the focus is primarily on the chariots.  Otherwise try to push them into a unit of 27.  And try to squeeze another BL in (maybe drop chosen).  Model count victories will be hard to maintain without a more solid unit.  Maybe 3 units of 18 if you drop the warriors.

Your opponent's primary goal would be to kill the chaos sorcerer lord since you have some redundancy in the Lord on Daemonic Mount and Sayl.  Also they should be looking to block their move with a good, sacrificial screen.  

 The gorebeasts will average 15 wounds against 3+ armor.   You will indeed come very close to killing Alarielle.  Brutal.

People unaware of this combo will get absolutely wrecked.  Also, if you over commit and don't kill something really valuable and subsequently lose the chariots it could be painful.  I think most will be focused on the manticore lords.


List 2
I enjoy the stand-off nature of the list that you mentioned while still being able to bring the fight to the enemy.  Less damaging, potentially, but a little bit of a safer choice.  Battle line is still maybe a little weak, but can't really tell without games in.   Most people are going to be focused on the big targets.

This list carriers less wounds overall 148 vs 123 or so (discounting familiars).

 

[Nico]

Interesting. Manticore is still junk though. Synergies are still so-so compared to Khorne or Skaven ones.

Balewind doesn't strike me as overpowered on the basis that you just need to make a 9 to charge it (3 away and up 6) or only a 3 if you can fly. There's also some risk reward as you can fail the summon spell.

It makes debuff spells viable when currently they are awful. Not aware of tournaments banning them.

[Arkiham]

9 minutes ago, Nico said:

Interesting. Manticore is still junk though. Synergies are still so-so compared to Khorne or Skaven ones.

Balewind doesn't strike me as overpowered on the basis that you just need to make a 9 to charge it (3 away and up 6) or only a 3 if you can fly. There's also some risk reward as you can fail the summon spell.

It makes debuff spells viable when currently they are awful. Not aware of tournaments banning them.

you cant charge it, land on it or get near it.  the only way you can kill the wizard on top of the balewind is magic or shooting. adds 1 to casting unbinding and +1 to save and double spell range. 

i used it as a flank blocker. as you got to run around it, as you cant move within 3" of it. so thats a large area of terrain ( like 10" ) you cannot move across unless you can fly.

 

its so strong its incredible it hasn't been nerfed. 

[TrexPushups]

you cant charge it, land on it or get near it.  the only way you can kill the wizard on top of the balewind is magic or shooting. adds 1 to casting unbinding and +1 to save and double spell range. 

i used it as a flank blocker. as you got to run around it, as you cant move within 3" of it. so thats a large area of terrain ( like 10" ) you cannot move across unless you can fly.

 

its so strong its incredible it hasn't been nerfed. 

Help me understand why models can't move on it or charge the wizard.

Is it an enemy model? It looks like scenery that since the wizard is 6" up high you can walk right under him without violating the not within 3" rule.

What am I missing?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nico]

The FAQ suggests that you can charge it - there's interpretation of the stay more than 3 inches away rule (which happens to match that of the Balewind - possibly by accident). Someone pointed this out on the GW FB page. Being chargeable on a 9 makes it tolerable.

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

The FAQ suggests that you can charge it - there's interpretation of the stay more than 3 inches away rule (which happens to match that of the Balewind - possibly by accident). Someone pointed this out on the GW FB page. Being chargeable on a 9 makes it tolerable.

Where is this? I've read the faq and the general's handbook one and cannot find anything relating to the balewind. 

[Nico]

It's the normal FAQ. The first question about Movement Phase on page 2.

It says that the restrictions (note plural) on moving within 3 inches only apply to moves that are made "in the movement phase".

Someone else made the connection to the Balewind Vortex and it's definitely for the best that you can charge it on a 9 or with a flying unit on a 3.

[daedalus81]

It doesn't say movement phase - just that they may not move within 3".  If a charge is a move it would be blocked.

[Nico]

Well that's how it was interpreted and it's the less overpowered way.

[Arkiham]

25 minutes ago, Nico said:

Well that's how it was interpreted and it's the less overpowered way.

interpreted and ruled as aren't the same. 

[Nico]

Someone has posted a question on the FB page already, it hasn't been answered.

I would much rather have something in the game that made debuff spells viable (Daemonsmith, Festus, Dark Elf Sorceress, Be'Lakor) and wasn't overpowered, rather than just seeing it be banned from tournaments.

[Digdug]

I've tried numerous combinations to try to get the unit count up on the Marauders or find the points for more Warriors as opposed to using Marauders.  My thought with the Marauders is that the enemy won't focus them unless they're sitting on an objective.  If he wastes attacks/spells/abilities on the Marauders, he isn't dealing with the other 3 threats facing him.  So I honestly think they'll be ignored, thus allowing me to use them as a light screen or on flanks to seize objectives.  The challenge becomes hitting the 1+9 requirement for the Fatesworn Warband.  When I try to go bigger on unit sizes I quickly run out of points and can't make the 1+9.

I've heard several times that Lord on Manticore isn't that strong.  I felt like focusing on the Chariots takes the reliance off of him.  I was thinking to use him to dive into the back line due to his ability to fly or to wipe out weaker battle line units and punch a hole.  If my opponent focuses him, he gets whacked by the Chariots.  If he's unfocused, I can get him into a good position with 4x attacks with the sword at D3 wounds and 4x attacks at 2-3 wounds with the lance, plus a little bit of extra damage from the Manticore itself.  If he's fighting next to the Chosen and can re-roll wounds...  Or if the Chariots get wiped out and my spells are freed up to target him, I think he could really do some damage.

As for the Chariots, he has to do some serious damage just to kill one of them off since they're 8 wounds a piece.  There's a really good thread on here that talks about the Demon Princes and how they're a solid pick over Monsters because they don't get less effective with wounds; same idea with the Chariots.

The one area where I could save some points is with the Curseling.  However, I took a look at most of the lists out there and most of them have a spellcaster that has a spell that would work on my own units.  For example, if I could steal Alarielle's heal and use it on my Chariots or Manticore... or some of the Skaven's direct damage spells.  He's very situational but with his two spells per turn is the only wizard that I can field that can consistently cast Mystic Shield without losing the opportunity to cast a better spell.

Where I thought I would be weak was in lack of durability because of weak/small battleline units and in ranged damage against shooty lists and artillery.  I figure with the potential damage output from 3 different sources, I could afford the weak battleline units.

[Arkiham]

31 minutes ago, Digdug said:

I've tried numerous combinations to try to get the unit count up on the Marauders or find the points for more Warriors as opposed to using Marauders.  My thought with the Marauders is that the enemy won't focus them unless they're sitting on an objective.  If he wastes attacks/spells/abilities on the Marauders, he isn't dealing with the other 3 threats facing him.  So I honestly think they'll be ignored, thus allowing me to use them as a light screen or on flanks to seize objectives.  The challenge becomes hitting the 1+9 requirement for the Fatesworn Warband.  When I try to go bigger on unit sizes I quickly run out of points and can't make the 1+9.

I've heard several times that Lord on Manticore isn't that strong.  I felt like focusing on the Chariots takes the reliance off of him.  I was thinking to use him to dive into the back line due to his ability to fly or to wipe out weaker battle line units and punch a hole.  If my opponent focuses him, he gets whacked by the Chariots.  If he's unfocused, I can get him into a good position with 4x attacks with the sword at D3 wounds and 4x attacks at 2-3 wounds with the lance, plus a little bit of extra damage from the Manticore itself.  If he's fighting next to the Chosen and can re-roll wounds...  Or if the Chariots get wiped out and my spells are freed up to target him, I think he could really do some damage.

As for the Chariots, he has to do some serious damage just to kill one of them off since they're 8 wounds a piece.  There's a really good thread on here that talks about the Demon Princes and how they're a solid pick over Monsters because they don't get less effective with wounds; same idea with the Chariots.

The one area where I could save some points is with the Curseling.  However, I took a look at most of the lists out there and most of them have a spellcaster that has a spell that would work on my own units.  For example, if I could steal Alarielle's heal and use it on my Chariots or Manticore... or some of the Skaven's direct damage spells.  He's very situational but with his two spells per turn is the only wizard that I can field that can consistently cast Mystic Shield without losing the opportunity to cast a better spell.

Where I thought I would be weak was in lack of durability because of weak/small battleline units and in ranged damage against shooty lists and artillery.  I figure with the potential damage output from 3 different sources, I could afford the weak battleline units.

Sound enough logic to me. Try it out dude see how it goes.

If the manticore under performs he's worth 3  gorebeast chariots  hard to focus down both groups 

[nelsonus]

You've definitely put the thought in, now time to try it out. Be sure to report your findings, I'm especially interested in the small battle line units and curseling and how they perform.

[Deamon]

Just curious...why use the fatesworn?  Save for the chosen you have no multiple of 9 units so you're not taking advantage of Scion of change and rule of 1 make Conduit of arcane power useless...

[Digdug]

I really like the Slaves to Darkness units despite their lack of synergy and rend. I choose the Fatesworn for a little fluff but mostly for rend. I look at the battalion as a small investment per unit to give my entire formation some measure of rend. All units except the Chosen benefit. So it's like paying an extra 15-20 points per unit to get a rend buff. On top of that I get an extra artifact and a little flexibility in who casts arcane bolt. 

[Arkiham]

41 minutes ago, Deamon said:

Just curious...why use the fatesworn?  Save for the chosen you have no multiple of 9 units so you're not taking advantage of Scion of change and rule of 1 make Conduit of arcane power useless...

The rend on chaos is incredibly helpful. Few of our units have it, it allows you to build a defensive army and still be offensive or put it on models which normally can't get it.

If you find yourself up against a low armour army it's helpful, or mods who gain armour saves against no rend etc.

 

[Tasman]

Couple of questions here. 

1) How do you get 9(18) attacks with the gore chariots brutish fists? Seems as tho they only get 3 per chariot.

and,

2) How does the other part of the fatesworn abilities, (multiple casting of arcane bolt) figure in with the rule of 1?

[Arkiham]

3 chariots..

[Broken Netcode]

The multiple casting of arcane bolt isnt really important, its the fact that op can cast it from any unit meaning he will always be in range to use it.

[Nico]

The rule of one trumps it - which really sucks. 

[Digdug]

20 hours ago, Tasman said:

Couple of questions here. 

1) How do you get 9(18) attacks with the gore chariots brutish fists? Seems as tho they only get 3 per chariot.

and,

2) How does the other part of the fatesworn abilities, (multiple casting of arcane bolt) figure in with the rule of 1?

Explosive Brutality: On a charge roll of 8 or more, Gorebeasts make 6 attacks with their fists instead of 3.  The Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount command ability gives a unit of Gorebeast Chariots the option of rerolling charges, so you'd have two attempts to roll an 8+.  

Additionally, you get +1 hit from the command ability, potentially another +1 hit from the allegiance ability, and you'd get -1 rend from the battalion.

Bought all the stuff.  Now I've got to build it and paint it then find a place to play test it.  My primary concern right now is 3x chariots take up a LOT of space.

[Tasman]

Hmmm. Sounds absolutely brutal. You could run them individually. They'd take up less space, but with proper placement would possibly still reach the same target.