How do Vargheists work?

[Ravinsild]

Specifically their Blood Maddened Feeding Frenzy? 

It says, “Each time a MODEL from this unit slays an enemy model, roll a dice. On a 6+ it can immediately make on extra attack against the same unit.”

lets say 3 are attacking a unit of 40 Chaos Marauders. 

Do I roll for each model at a time? 

Lets roll 3 dice and say 2 cause wounds and the Marauders fail their save. Now this means 4 Marauders die.

do I roll 4 dice and on each 6+ I make an additional attack? 

Additional attacks cannot create additional attacks right? I can’t then kill more models and roll 6 again to attack again with the same model right? 

Then do I execute the 2nd models attacks then the third in the unit? 

This is sort of a confusing ability because how do you know which model killed an enemy model and do you roll a dice for each enemy model slain per your own model? 

[Honk]

I would just throw all attack dice together, then add up the removed models and roll for 6+. Then make that many attacks against that unit...

it is not that the whole model gets another attack sequence.

3 vargheist attack (10x 3+\3+\-1\2) that’s 6.6 hits and 4.4 wounds, without save dealing (4x2) 8 wounds. 

If we have naked wildorks you remove 4 models, and try to roll 6 with 4 dice... 66% change to get one, with might result in 1 extra attack.

if you mince zombies, you remove 8 models, throwing 8 dice for 1.3 sixes average probably also only one extra attack .

[Cursed]

Honk is right! you can roll for all the attacks at the same time!

[Ravinsild]

Thanks guys! So not likely to happen, but still somewhat useful. Vargheists seem pretty good. Can’t wait to try them out!

[Honk]

They are used best in a Soulblight list.

Everybody then knows your playing fluff ?

and you can still ally in necro-skelli combo and have a decent list. Go for the crazy fast bloodline +2 move

first spontaneous list:

vhordrai, vamp, necro

10 bloodknights, 3x3 (6/3?) vargheist, batswarm, 20 skellis

cogs...

necro with the skellis protect homebase, everything gets +2 move and I think also fly ? but that’s guesswork right now ...aaaand confirmed for all soulblight models

the bats rush up to chargeblock and prevent shooting, vargheist and bloodknights...well, meat is what’s for dinner!!!

maybe better with standart VloZd gryph-charm (-1/+5 move) or ethereal amulet definitely better, +1 CP

[Ravinsild]

5 hours ago, Honk said:

They are used best in a Soulblight list.

Everybody then knows your playing fluff ?

and you can still ally in necro-skelli combo and have a decent list. Go for the crazy fast bloodline +2 move

first spontaneous list:

vhordrai, vamp, necro

10 bloodknights, 3x3 (6/3?) vargheist, batswarm, 20 skellis

cogs...

necro with the skellis protect homebase, everything gets +2 move and I think also fly ? but that’s guesswork right now ...aaaand confirmed for all soulblight models

the bats rush up to chargeblock and prevent shooting, vargheist and bloodknights...well, meat is what’s for dinner!!!

maybe better with standart VloZd gryph-charm (-1/+5 move) or ethereal amulet definitely better, +1 CP

Allegiance: Legion of Night
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Mannfred Mortarch Of Night (420)
- General
- Lore of the Dead: Soul Harvest (Deathmages)
Vampire Lord (140)
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)
- Ancient Blades
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)
- Ancient Blades

Units
6 x Vargheists (320)
10 x Grave Guard (160)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields

Behemoths
Mortis Engine (180)

Battalions
Nightfall Pack (170)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 127
 

i think there’s potential in this list to be absolutely filthy. 

I’m fairly certain I either don’t want anything in ambush, or if I do probably the block of 40 skeletons. 

The nova potential to absolutely smash someone is pretty solid here: give turn 1 to the enemy and let them move up onto objectives. You then go to turn 1. Command Point for Vampire Lord onto Vargheists, Command Point on Mannfred to re-roll, cast Chronomatic Cogs. All of your units can fly in theDeathball. 

Chronomatic Cogs gives Mannfred 18” move, VampireLord can go 12”, I would probably run him to keep up, he sucks in melee so why charge. Vargheists go 14”. Everyone gets plus 2 to their charge. Throw the Mortis Engine up field too, 16” and throw it into combat near Mannfred. 

With the Battalion and VL Command Ability Vargheists are throwing out 30 3/3/-1/2 attacks rr1’s. Mannfred is a beast in combat. 

Next turn you’ll probably get hurt and that’s ok. Vargheists will take some wounds, maybe Mannfred too. So then you open with Soul Harvest, then do Wind of Death, then pop the reliquary, then cast Vile Transference and that’s 4D3 total damage to one unit, 2D3 +1 to several other units and 1D3 + 1D3 damage or so healing to your wounded Vargheists and Mannfred himself, then you attack with them again after all of your spells and abilities. 

 The enemy should be crippled at this point and you still have 40 skeletons and a Necromancer in the back supporting. Vargheists could even still have 24 attacks, even if they didn’t charge they’re still deadly. 

I think the alpha strike hammer potential is insane especially if you get a double turn. 

Thoughts on such a list? 

[Honk]

1 hour ago, Ravinsild said:

Thoughts on such a list? 

The usual: Play it and keep us updated ;-D

there are a lot of crazy cool options out there for semi-competitive play

[Ravinsild]

15 minutes ago, Honk said:

The usual: Play it and keep us updated ;-D

there are a lot of crazy cool options out there for semi-competitive play

So in other words this would definitely not work in a tournament, or at least I definitely wouldn’t win it all. 

[Sneedlewoods]

Well, if I'm right you'll need two Units of vargheists for this battalion and I'm not sure if ten grave guards are worth the 160 Points. :-) The spell Combo sounds good if it works. :-D

[Yoshiya]

10 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

So in other words this would definitely not work in a tournament, or at least I definitely wouldn’t win it all. 

He didn't say that, he said play it and find out and that it should be at least semi-competitive.

Unless someone plays a list very similar to you the conclusion will very often be "play it and try out" even if at face value the list seems bad (which this one doesn't).

At face value I'd say you're game plan is good but relies on a bunch of semi-detached heroes. The motarchs in particular are pretty well known for being fragile so there is a chance that you may lose Manfred to a ranged alpha strike being he even gets stuck in (I have a living city army that isnt even ranged focus planned that would be able to do about 8-9 wounds reliably on Manfred before he even gets a charge).

As such you'll need to be careful with positioning and line of sight (which is always the case in death from what I can gather anyway).

[Ravinsild]

35 minutes ago, Sneedlewoods said:

Well, if I'm right you'll need two Units of vargheists for this battalion and I'm not sure if ten grave guards are worth the 160 Points. ? The spell Combo sounds good if it works. ?

You may be right about that. I kind of like using sword and shield Grave Guard in the Legion of Night as objective holders wholly within my own territory, because they’re still a 5+ save versus rend 1 and a 3+ against rend ‘-‘. 

Basically it’s personal preference, but you are right, I need 2 units separate of Vargheists, which slightly reduces efficiency but not a lot. I lose 3 attacks that’s it. 

[Ravinsild]

13 minutes ago, Yoshiya said:

He didn't say that, he said play it and find out and that it should be at least semi-competitive.

Unless someone plays a list very similar to you the conclusion will very often be "play it and try out" even if at face value the list seems bad (which this one doesn't).

At face value I'd say you're game plan is good but relies on a bunch of semi-detached heroes. The motarchs in particular are pretty well known for being fragile so there is a chance that you may lose Manfred to a ranged alpha strike being he even gets stuck in (I have a living city army that isnt even ranged focus planned that would be able to do about 8-9 wounds reliably on Manfred before he even gets a charge).

As such you'll need to be careful with positioning and line of sight (which is always the case in death from what I can gather anyway).

Well some guy on Reddit tore me a new one... here’s what he said. Hurt my feelings a little bit tbh. I think this list is a pretty good idea, but you and he are probably more correct. 

“Get rid of the 2x 10 Skeletons, they’re literally useless. If you’re filling battleline tax take Dire Wolves. They’re faster, cheaper, have the same wounds, do more damage.

6x Vargheists is a bit much in my eyes, but there’s worse options. I’m assuming this is a requirement of the Nightfall Pack? If so, drop it, it’s a ****** battalion and not even close to worth its point cost.

10x Grave Guard is too small a unit for it to have any real impact, also there’s no point running them with shields, deaths shields suck and you might as well make your blender infantry more choppy.

A Mortis Engine is literally useless in your list, your infantry can’t keep up with it, and your casters won’t be close enough to gain any of the other benefits. Outside of Lords of Sacrament it’s a worthless model.

Your alpha strike isn’t nearly as strong as you think it is, your only threat is Mannfred. Skeletons do about 2 wounds a turn if you’re lucky, and Vargheists are only good vs something with bad armour saves, they’ll get turned into mincemeat if you charge them at a powerful unit.

Any list that relies on a double turn is an inherently bad list, to put it bluntly. Also you seriously overestimate what tiny threat 40 skeletons and a Necromancer pose, they’re a tar pit, they have virtually no combat potential.”

I tried to defend my use of Mortis Engine though by stating: 

Mannfred takes Soul Harvest and automatically knows Wind of Death and can cast two spells. Regular Vampire Lord with wings takes Vile Transference. Necromancer knows Vanhel’s Danse Macabre and Overwhelming Dread. The Reliquary has a once per battle activation to unlock the powers within for 1D3 damage to all enemies in range and heal all DEATH keyword units.

3 units of skeletons are a requirement for my Battalion.

Some of your points are inherently wrong though...

Mortis Engine gives value to the Vampire Lord (10/12” movement without running), Mannfred (16/18” without running) and the Necromancer gets 5/7” movement before running. With running it’s entirely possible to stay within the required 12” range for +1 cast, not to mention Morbhed’s Claw artifact can plant for a 12” bubble +2 to cast and if Mannfred kills anyone he gets another +1 to cast.

It also has value for healing my Vargheists and Mannfred himself, in addition to bringing a somewhat decent ranged attack.

I think it has a lot of value, and my list doesn’t rely on a double turn, it’s just amazing if I get one. Turn one I still have a blender in the Vargheists charge and Mannfred.

The Grave Guard stay in my territory and are at a 3+ save due to Legion of Night against no rend enemies and stay 5+ against rend 1. They’re just objective holders.

Same with my 10 skeleton blocks, they’re the Necromancers bodyguards and just there to hold objectives with him and take hits.

 

[Honk]

10 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

at least I definitely wouldn’t win it all. 

1d4chan states for the nightfall pack „might as well just buy another unit of vargheist“ and I think that sums it up pretty good. 

If you think about your game plan, you have three units of skellis more or less on objective duty. Then mannfred and his vargheist...

with Mannfreds CA I would thinking about running them as one terror squat or at least with the big unit, the small on harassing backrank shooters.

with the points from dropping the battalion you either max out your big vargheist block or take another small unit. Also highly dependent on your opponents list...

[Ravinsild]

2 minutes ago, Honk said:

1d4chan states for the nightfall pack „might as well just buy another unit of vargheist“ and I think that sums it up pretty good. 

If you think about your game plan, you have three units of skellis more or less on objective duty. Then mannfred and his vargheist...

with Mannfreds CA I would thinking about running them as one terror squat or at least with the big unit, the small on harassing backrank shooters.

with the points from dropping the battalion you either max out your big vargheist block or take another small unit. Also highly dependent on your opponents list...

You’re echoing the fella from reddit who had these suggestions to make, “

Drop the engine, drop the battalion, drop the Grave Guard, drop the skeletons in favour of min size Wolves, that’s 570 points.

Take 480 of those points for Vhordrai, or 440 for a VLoZD, both of those give you a huge threat on the board, which coupled with Mannfred will wipe anything off the map on a charge. Both have 14 wounds, move very quickly and are super survivable once in a melee.

Or, a Terrorgheist is 300 points for a big threat, add that onto 240 points for Blood Knights and you can hit two flanks at the same time with priority targets. Throw your winged horror vampire lord up the same flank as the knights, then send the Terrorgheist and Mannfred straight over their battleline to mince some heroes.

If neither of those strikes your fancy, change the skeletons for chainrasp, as they’re super tanky and hold a line much longer. Grimghast Reapers are a solid pick up, they do a boat load of damage and tank for days if you add in gravesite/hero regen.”

As it stands I’ll try it out both ways. My list and if it’s an ****** show I’ll trade out and change it slightly. The main things I want to keep are the Vampires! The Mortrarch, Vampire Lord and Vargheists are all vampires so it feels like a vampire army! 

Heck at this point I may switch to Legion of Blood since it doesn’t really matter and use Neferata instead of Mannfred

[Yoshiya]

Don't take what people say online to heart. If you wanna build a list and run with it just do regardless of what they say. You'll find on the internet people have a tendency to rank things as either "overpowered" or "completely useless and you're a fool for taking them".

I do agree somewhat that you're over rating your alpha strike. You've got two units that are somewhat fragile that you are hoping shut down the opponent before they get to do much back. Vargheists are decent but theyre not going to win you games on their own.

I find myself agreeing with taking Dire Wolves too purely because they are more mobile to take mid-field objectives but it's a case of min-maxing there as both are throw away units at the end of the day and as long as they hold objectives they'll do fine.

Skeletons in units of 40 have potential to inflict damage so long as you can keep their buffing elements alive.

Grave Guard do seem like a bit of a point sink in a unit of 10 though to be honest. Too many things will tear through them although if you keep them as a back field unit to tie up opponent objective grabbers (ie. their dire wolf tier units) they could be alright.

 

Like I said though, this is all min maxing at the end of the day and I think in a semi-competive field they will be fine. With practice and a bit of list refinement you may come up with something truly amazing (or who knows, you may have already found it and just need to get it on the board to find out. Forum advice from people have never used your list is no substitute for proper game experience!)

[Honk]

1 minute ago, Ravinsild said:

Heck at this point I may switch to Legion of Blood since it doesn’t really matter and use Neferata instead of Mannfred

Yes, after asking the internet, I decided to  switch Mannfred for kairos and the vargheist for skyfires...

if you want to field manni with vargheist in a nightfall pack list, you can make it work

[Ravinsild]

1 minute ago, Honk said:

Yes, after asking the internet, I decided to  switch Mannfred for kairos and the vargheist for skyfires...

if you want to field manni with vargheist in a nightfall pack list, you can make it work

I do! But I’m also looking for an excuse or a good list to use Neferata in haha. She’s my favorite model but Legion of Blood doesn’t seem that great and I just haven’t found the magic mix yet... 

After taking that guys critique and changing my list I got something.... essentially completely different. However it’s cool in its own way because I get to use all the huge monster cool models. 

Theres only 1 problem. I don’t have any Dire Wolves and the GW store Online is out of them. So.... this list will have to sit on the back burner until I get some real life models. 

Allegiance: Legion of Night

Leaders
Mannfred Mortarch Of Night (420)
- General
- Lore of the Dead: Soul Harvest (Deathmages)
Prince Vhordrai (480)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Vampire Lord (140)
- Mount: Flying Horror
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Necromancer (110)
- Artefact: Morbheg's Claw  
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Battleline
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)

Units
6 x Vargheists (320)

Behemoths
Terrorgheist (300)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103
 

I don’t hate this list.... but it also doesn’t really feel like “my” list. I’m sure there’s a way to make my original concept better, the Nightfall Pack etc...

i guess I just keep trying to use unorthodox approaches and battalions and run “themed” armies so I can use models I like

[Honk]

19 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

i guess I just keep trying to use unorthodox approaches and battalions and run “themed” armies so I can use models I like

The usual problem with tournament lists...min-max to 11 only leaves you with so much options. And mathhammer destroys most of your dreams in list building.

LoB Bravery Bombs sounds like fun. Will get wasted against bravery 10 or similar though.

morghast, black knights for mobile bravery debuff, necromancer on vortex, then terrorgheist screaming ...

neffi, necro, vamp

2x2 morghast, 2x5 blackknights, 3x5 dire wolves, 10 skellis and a terrorgheist. Vortex and cogs... 1990

 

[Ravinsild]

3 minutes ago, Honk said:

The usual problem with tournament lists...min-max to 11 only leaves you with so much options. And mathhammer destroys most of your dreams in list building.

LoB Bravery Bombs sounds like fun. Will get wasted against bravery 10 or similar though.

morghast, black knights for mobile bravery debuff, necromancer on vortex, then terrorgheist screaming ...

neffi, necro, vamp

2x2 morghast, 2x5 blackknights, 3x5 dire wolves, 10 skellis and a terrorgheist. Vortex and cogs... 1990

 

That sounds like fun! There’s also several endless spells that effect bravery as well, like Suffocating Gravetide and Ravenak’s Jaws  

[Honk]

Never played with endless spells (except vortex). Thinking that I don’t want to be forced into giving up turn priority, because otherwise 2/3 predatory spells rampaging through my lines...

and they are stealing room for my attacking units

[Ravinsild]

5 minutes ago, Honk said:

Never played with endless spells (except vortex). Thinking that I don’t want to be forced into giving up turn priority, because otherwise 2/3 predatory spells rampaging through my lines...

and they are stealing room for my attacking units

That’s a good point... the endless spells being used against you is a pretty big deterrent... it’s why I almost never use them myself except for Chronomatic Cogs and I’ll be using the Balewind Vortex soon. 

Anyway looks like I’ve got a new list to test out a few times. Hopefully it works out for me

[Honk]

You could use endless spells like the palisades to roadblock, but predatory with 10“ movement...

might as well throw the purple sun around and see who gets one shoted  

[Cursed]

2 hours ago, Honk said:

You could use endless spells like the palisades to roadblock, but predatory with 10“ movement...

might as well throw the purple sun around and see who gets one shoted  

Sadly for the palisade I've found in my last few games, that it is too easy to dispel!  you can't count on it when you need, it since most armies will have a few wizards and they only need a 6 to remove your protection! I wish it was like casting value 8 or 9, harder to cast but once it's their you know it has a good chance to protect you!

[Nevvermore]

, That reddit is basically spot on on everything he says. He's basically telling you to take out bad units and replace them with good ones. You're never going to make a good list with Vargheists, let alone the Nightfall pack. They're simply not good enough for their points. Vargheists aren't bad by any means, just not great. The Nightfall pack is simply laughable how bad it is.  But that's just if you want to make a competitive list to try to win tournaments. If you want a themed cool list then take whatever you want, not everything has to be a competition. Or else no one would use anything but Nagash, VLoZDs, Necromancers, Vampire Lords, skellies, Dire Wolves and Grimghasts, since those are the best units in the book.

[Ravinsild]

8 hours ago, Nevvermore said:

, That reddit is basically spot on on everything he says. He's basically telling you to take out bad units and replace them with good ones. You're never going to make a good list with Vargheists, let alone the Nightfall pack. They're simply not good enough for their points. Vargheists aren't bad by any means, just not great. The Nightfall pack is simply laughable how bad it is.  But that's just if you want to make a competitive list to try to win tournaments. If you want a themed cool list then take whatever you want, not everything has to be a competition. Or else no one would use anything but Nagash, VLoZDs, Necromancers, Vampire Lords, skellies, Dire Wolves and Grimghasts, since those are the best units in the book.

So how can I improve my Vargheist list without completely losing it? I don’t own any Dire Wolves as it sits. So out of the most efficient units list I don’t have Nagash, Dire Wolves or Grimghasts.

What I do have

60 skeletons

 20 Grave Guard

15 Black Knights

all 3 Mortrarchs

1 Mortis Engine/Coven Throne (I built it with everything on it so I could counts as...)

4 Morghasts 

3 sets of spirit hosts

1 Corpse Cart

2 Necromancers

2 Vampire Lords

3 Wight Kings

and soon 6 Vargheists, a VLoZD and a Terrorgheist because next paycheck I’m picking up 2 Start Collecting! Flesh Eater Courts boxes. In addition I’ll be picking up 10 more Grave Guard with 2 handed weapons. 

I also eventually plan to get 3 sets of 5 Black Knights and Dire Wolves once they’re back in stock. 

Musing what I have and will get this Friday do I have a decent recipe for a strong Vargheists vampire alpha-strike list?