Challenge: build me a Tomb King list (1k and 2k)

[Snakeb1te]

Models I already have to work with:

1. Settra 
2. Khalida 
3. Tomb King (sword and shield) 
4. Tomb Herald (mounted, or not)
5. 8 chariots
6. 8 ushabti (staves).

Models I can buy (or buy MORE of):

1. Skeleton Legionnaires / Skeleton Archers
2. Skeleton Horsemen / Horse Archers 
3. Tomb Guard 
4. Screaming Skull Catapults 
5. Tomb Swarms 
6. Caskets of Souls 
7. Necrotects / Liche Priests
8. As well as more Tomb Kings on foot, Tomb Heralds, and Ushabti. 

I'm hoping to get a hold of some necropolis knights/sepulchrals at some point, as well as Necrosphinx/Warsphinx - but ignore that for now as its not for definite. 

 

For the chariots and ushabti I already know I am missing one to make a full unit, but I can always pay for 9 and simply just use 8.

Anyway I reckon stacking a few Tomb Heralds and having separate chariot units could get me a lot of mileage with reviving chariots every turn (5 wounds each). A block of 8 Ushabti running around could be a great horde killer, especially with a necrotect. Screaming skull catapults could combo well with a casket. 

I haven't figured out the most effective way to use Legionnaires/Archers, but presumably I'd want them in a big block and stack buffs on them. 

 

So what would be best for a 1k and 2k army? Anyone up for it?

 

FYI they're to be played against Sylvaneth, Ironjawz and Nighthaunt.

[themortalgod]

As it stands, right now, Ushabti are really efficient so you can't go wrong with more of them.  You def need a necrotect if you are going to run a bunch of ushabti though as his aura is really good for them.

Tomb Guard and Catapults really suck so I wouldn't worry about them. Also, unfortunately, the casket and catapults can't combo as the catapults only apply their debuff in the shooting phase and it lasts until the end of turn while the casket fires off in the hero phase. Thus the catapult bravery debuff will never be active when you are using a casket. 

Casket is situationally awesome but usually horrible so its really depends on your meta. If you often encounter opponents who cluster their heroes to stack buffs then the Casket can do a lot of work. Otherwise, it kinda sucks.

Tomb Swarms are amazing for popping up as screens or as backline threats.

Horsemen are really good. Horse Archers, less so. 

 

 

[Kyriakin]

I think you need to carri-on buying new TK miniatures.

There's a hint in there somewhere,

[Josh]

i would suggest trying to write a list & asking for advice instead of just expecting people to do it for you

[jjb070707]

But if you word it as a "challenge" you can exploit human psychology to have them do it for you. And it let's you start another topic about a half-squatted army. It's a win win! :)

As for advice, I'd highly recommend picking up the legions of nagash I'd you like skeletons, and playing age of sigmar with an age of sigmar army. You might even have some ideas of your own after reading through it for 1k or 2k armies (if your up to it).

Good luck! any specific questions and we would be happy to help,

Joe

[Kyriakin]

2 hours ago, jjb070707 said:

As for advice, I'd highly recommend picking up the legions of nagash I'd you like skeletons, and playing age of sigmar with an age of sigmar army.

As of 1st August 2018, TK are an Age of Sigmar army. They have points, and it seems he has the means to purchase miniatures (which, let's face it, is the main issue).

Plus, the heavily Gothic and Medieval-inspired LoN are hardly inter-changeable in terms of a desired aesthetic, with no sphinxes, snakes, ushabti, chariots, scorpions, caskets, catapults, embalmed characters, vultures or anything remotely Egyptian and/or desert-inspired.

The only crossover is "bones".

It almost feels like some people are hovering around and waiting for anyone to mention TK/Brets so they can say "nah, nah, nah... not a real army!".

Sure, other places like FB are worse, but it happens a bit here too. It's like some kind of weird elitism.

[Snakeb1te]

Ok I'll start with a 1000pt list.

Tomb Herald (mounted)
General
100pts
Liche Priest
120pts

Skeleton Chariots x3
Skeleton Chariots x3
Skeleton Chariots x3
420pts

Ushabti x9
360pts

Total: 1000pts    

The Mounted Tomb Herald keeps up with the Chariots, so that when they engage in combat he can plant his standard and revive potentially three across the units every turn, in addition to the one they'll already be reviving due to the icon bearer. This means each unit of three chariots can lose two models, and still get them back next turn (as long as I keep the icon alive). The chariots will be responsible for charging the tougher units as they'll have quite a few attacks and health to tarpit them.

Meanwhile, the Liche Priest should go with the 9 Ushabti. I feel like a Liche priest would be more useful than a Necrotect. Sure the Necro provides the re-rolling 1 save but it doesn't give much else. The Liche Priest can provide Mystic shield if needed which does the same thing but it can also provide dispelling, and Incantation of Smiting to the Ushabti - which is a very nice unit to want extra attacks with.
The Ushabti unit should go for the softer targets like hordes, which should have 1 damage, thereby giving the Ushabti more efficiency out of their 'war-statuary' rule.

Any thoughts?

I'll consider the suggestions already provided in this thread. I agree that the Skeleton Horsemen could be pretty good for their cost, considering they'd be reviving D3 and can run and charge. I'm not sure about the suggestion regarding Carrion, can you elaborate?

Tomb Swarms are probably a better pick for a larger game - and with units like Ushabti and Chariots who don't really need screening they're not going to be that useful to me. However if I take Archers or artillery they might be useful as I can bring them out of the ground to block them getting charged.

I'm disappointed to hear that the Tomb Guard, Screaming Catapult and Casket are bad. Could you elaborate further?
The Tomb Guard seem a little expensive for what they do. Their damage isn't bad but only have a 1" range and poor save (why are the halberds only 1?) and their reviving is only D3. Is that accurate?

However I would've thought the Casket and Catapult weren't bad. The Casket is clunky sure, and 3+ to hit (then 5+) for D3 MWs isn't jaw-dropping but against an army of many squads couldn't this be decent? I guess the fact its 5+ to hit after the first target makes it a little poor.

But the Catapult... you can revive the crew, and dropping the bravery by 2 (4 damage) seems pretty decent to me! I would've thought taking one of these along in a 2000pt army wouldn't be too bad - especially when combined with the number of damage a unit of chariots or ushabti is likely to cause.

As always - open to further suggestions/commentary.

[Snakeb1te]

This post is addressing the negative resposnes in this thread - feel free to ignore if only interested in Tomb King specific comments.

For some people creating an army list and discussing options is fun - and not a chore like it appears to be for some people around here.

I called it a 'challenge' because the faction is out-of-date and has flaws in quite a few areas, and so bringing up to speed to be competitive against armies like Nighthaunt/Sylvaneth/Ironjawz is indeed a challenge.

In addition, the fact I have the ability to acquire more models (as a member previously pointed out) makes building this list a little different to the usual, becuase that is considered the main obstacle to collecting this army.

Finally - I am not very experienced in AoS let alone Tomb Kings. As such, I don't want to influence the advice I might get by providing a list. I'd rather give people a blank canvas with a few limitations and see what they suggest.
After all, the models for Tomb Kings are pretty expensive, so it makes sense that I'd want to know what kind of army I'm building ahead of time as it'll great affect the money I spend!

Please take your negativity elsewhere - if you don't like seeing topics about factions you don't like, then ignore them and move along. Tomb Kings are a perfectly valid army and there are of those still here which enjoy discussing and theory-crafting for them.

[Kyriakin]

2 hours ago, Snakeb1te said:

I'm disappointed to hear that the Tomb Guard, Screaming Catapult and Casket are bad. Could you elaborate further?
The Tomb Guard seem a little expensive for what they do. Their damage isn't bad but only have a 1" range and poor save (why are the halberds only 1?) and their reviving is only D3. Is that accurate?

It's nothing personal against the Tomb Guard as they suffer from something that affects all "one-wound elite" units (e.g. Black Guard, Grave Guard, Tomb Guard, etc.), which is that the "basic" version (e.g. regular skellies, dreadspears, etc.) just tend to be far more points efficient.

Check this video out. It starts off slow, but they have more chemistry towards the end...:

 

[jjb070707]

1 hour ago, Snakeb1te said:

This post is addressing the negative resposnes in this thread - feel free to ignore if only interested in Tomb King specific comments.

For some people creating an army list and discussing options is fun - and not a chore like it appears to be for some people around here.

I called it a 'challenge' because the faction is out-of-date and has flaws in quite a few areas, and so bringing up to speed to be competitive against armies like Nighthaunt/Sylvaneth/Ironjawz is indeed a challenge.

In addition, the fact I have the ability to acquire more models (as a member previously pointed out) makes building this list a little different to the usual, becuase that is considered the main obstacle to collecting this army.

Finally - I am not very experienced in AoS let alone Tomb Kings. As such, I don't want to influence the advice I might get by providing a list. I'd rather give people a blank canvas with a few limitations and see what they suggest.
After all, the models for Tomb Kings are pretty expensive, so it makes sense that I'd want to know what kind of army I'm building ahead of time as it'll great affect the money I spend!

Please take your negativity elsewhere - if you don't like seeing topics about factions you don't like, then ignore them and move along. Tomb Kings are a perfectly valid army and there are of those still here which enjoy discussing and theory-crafting for them.

In reference to your post, I guess it would be helpful for someone to present evidence that Tomb Kings are matched play legal. The obvious conclusion right now is that they work in open and narrative play based on a couple key pieces:

Paraphrased from the new edition, "All existing armies can be played in the new edition of Age of Sigmar" , the most common misconception it seems amoung TK players, is that this statement validates their matched play use, while I'd be of the opinion that designers are including ALL THREE types of play in their assessment, and indeed confirming that Tomb Kings are a legal narrative army, using compendium points.

Further supporting this, previous evidence has shown that pitched battle points, those used in matched play, for every legal army can be found in the general's handbook of the current edition, in this case 2018. In absence of their profiles being in this document, it is unreasonable to assume that they get some special differment to that rule.

Tertiarily,  statements in the past have indicated explicitly that compendium points values, and units are not intended for matched play, setting a precedent that future compendiums, unless explicitly stated to be "for matched play" would also carry that stipulation.  And as far as I can tell, current Tomb King units are all housed in a conpendium, available for download alongside Empire, Brettonia, chaos daemons, ect.

In light of those points, I don't think the people on these forums or on FB are trying to kill your fun in making a Tomb Kings list, but agonizing over specific lists doesn't really seem to hold much point, as you wouldn't bring the same "competitive" list to a narrative event over and over. If you really love the model line, or specific units, get them. Enjoy them. Play narrative games with them. But until given specific confirmation, don't be overly concerned with setting up a matched play style army with them, like you would with one of the current factions. 

As always, if I have missed something, and there is an official source confirming that these are matched play legal, please quote it and disregard this analysis. 

Have a wonderful day,

Joe

[Snakeb1te]

3 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

It's nothing personal against the Tomb Guard as they suffer from something that affects all "one-wound elite" units (e.g. Black Guard, Grave Guard, Tomb Guard, etc.), which is that the "basic" version (e.g. regular skellies, dreadspears, etc.) just tend to be far more points efficient.

Check this video out. It starts off slow, but they have more chemistry towards the end...:

 

Oh fantastic! I'll have a watch of that! For the record I think I agreed with you about Tomb Guard being lacklustre, but I wanted to know your rationale.

[Snakeb1te]

3 hours ago, jjb070707 said:

In reference to your post, I guess it would be helpful for someone to present evidence that Tomb Kings are matched play legal. The obvious conclusion right now is that they work in open and narrative play based on a couple key pieces:

Paraphrased from the new edition, "All existing armies can be played in the new edition of Age of Sigmar" , the most common misconception it seems amoung TK players, is that this statement validates their matched play use, while I'd be of the opinion that designers are including ALL THREE types of play in their assessment, and indeed confirming that Tomb Kings are a legal narrative army, using compendium points.

Further supporting this, previous evidence has shown that pitched battle points, those used in matched play, for every legal army can be found in the general's handbook of the current edition, in this case 2018. In absence of their profiles being in this document, it is unreasonable to assume that they get some special differment to that rule.

Tertiarily,  statements in the past have indicated explicitly that compendium points values, and units are not intended for matched play, setting a precedent that future compendiums, unless explicitly stated to be "for matched play" would also carry that stipulation.  And as far as I can tell, current Tomb King units are all housed in a conpendium, available for download alongside Empire, Brettonia, chaos daemons, ect.

In light of those points, I don't think the people on these forums or on FB are trying to kill your fun in making a Tomb Kings list, but agonizing over specific lists doesn't really seem to hold much point, as you wouldn't bring the same "competitive" list to a narrative event over and over. If you really love the model line, or specific units, get them. Enjoy them. Play narrative games with them. But until given specific confirmation, don't be overly concerned with setting up a matched play style army with them, like you would with one of the current factions. 

As always, if I have missed something, and there is an official source confirming that these are matched play legal, please quote it and disregard this analysis. 

Have a wonderful day,

Joe

9

I do not wish to continue debating whether Tomb Kings are legal or not in this thread.

Please use the thread linked here to continue this discussion - I made it specifically to debate your point.

I would just add that you have suggested there is evidence to suggest GW does not consider compendium units to be legal, despite them having points values and warscrolls. You should present this evidence rather than just refer to it in passing.

Secondly, you may be interested in the following article which was released today, where it says that any units with warscrolls and points values are considered suitable for organised play and pitched battles.

But please do respond to me if you wish in the other topic I created to debate Tomb King legality. I'd like to keep this thread on-topic to help me design a list and decide on which models I want next.

 

[Marsh]

5 hours ago, jjb070707 said:

In reference to your post, I guess it would be helpful for someone to present evidence that Tomb Kings are matched play legal. The obvious conclusion right now is that they work in open and narrative play based on a couple key pieces:

Paraphrased from the new edition, "All existing armies can be played in the new edition of Age of Sigmar" , the most common misconception it seems amoung TK players, is that this statement validates their matched play use, while I'd be of the opinion that designers are including ALL THREE types of play in their assessment, and indeed confirming that Tomb Kings are a legal narrative army, using compendium points.

Further supporting this, previous evidence has shown that pitched battle points, those used in matched play, for every legal army can be found in the general's handbook of the current edition, in this case 2018. In absence of their profiles being in this document, it is unreasonable to assume that they get some special differment to that rule.

Tertiarily,  statements in the past have indicated explicitly that compendium points values, and units are not intended for matched play, setting a precedent that future compendiums, unless explicitly stated to be "for matched play" would also carry that stipulation.  And as far as I can tell, current Tomb King units are all housed in a conpendium, available for download alongside Empire, Brettonia, chaos daemons, ect.

In light of those points, I don't think the people on these forums or on FB are trying to kill your fun in making a Tomb Kings list, but agonizing over specific lists doesn't really seem to hold much point, as you wouldn't bring the same "competitive" list to a narrative event over and over. If you really love the model line, or specific units, get them. Enjoy them. Play narrative games with them. But until given specific confirmation, don't be overly concerned with setting up a matched play style army with them, like you would with one of the current factions. 

As always, if I have missed something, and there is an official source confirming that these are matched play legal, please quote it and disregard this analysis. 

Have a wonderful day,

Joe

So much over interpretation and waay overthinking it.

Matched play = points, tomb kings have points. They have points on warscroll builder. Stuff you cant use in matched play has been removed from warscroll builder. 

Tomb kings will probably be removed from matched play soon, but not yet. Give it a month or two.

[Snakeb1te]

Wait.. what? What gives you the idea that in 2 months they're out?

[themortalgod]

On 8/1/2018 at 2:26 PM, Snakeb1te said:

Wait.. what? What gives you the idea that in 2 months they're out?

When GW announced “Warhammer Legends” they said that Dark Elves were first and that other armies, such as TKs, would follow.

When Dark Elves got their legends release, their points costs were removed from matched play. It stands to reason the same will happen for a TK Legends release.

[Snakeb1te]

Possibly.. then again most of the Dark Elf roster made it to AoS. Tomb Kings and Bretonnia didn't, so if they remove their points that'd kill them for good.

Cmon GW... don't be like that. I just bought a bunch of Tomb King stuff and it wasn't cheap!

[themortalgod]

34 minutes ago, Snakeb1te said:

Possibly.. then again most of the Dark Elf roster made it to AoS. Tomb Kings and Bretonnia didn't, so if they remove their points that'd kill them for good.

Cmon GW... don't be like that. I just bought a bunch of Tomb King stuff and it wasn't cheap!

yeah, its tough, I have over 3k of TKs mostly painted, so I desperately want it to stay alive but from GW’s point of view it isnt good business to continue to support TKs as it incentivizes people to spend their hobby budget on ebay instead of buying new models from GW. I think TK only have two possible fates, either GW brings them into AoS with a full release of all new models or they will eventually mothball out of the rules. There is no way GW will keep compendium stuff alive long term. I am actually surprised compendium rules didnt just get removed for the 2.0 release.

That said, the best thing we can do is if there is a TK legends release, make it a big seller. I am willing to bet the whole purpose of legends is to judge the demand for armies that were discontinued so GW can evaluate whether it is worth investing in bringing them back without having to invest in any actual production.

[Overread]

Best you can do is get together a lot of TK players and get them to send GW pictures of their armies and show their enthusiasm for the faction and request its return - perhaps a well put together fansite with a single email sent with the link to it (And details of course). Basically show GW that there IS serious fanbase and money behind them bringing TK back.

GW is a company  and money talks - sure its not their only focus; but it is a core consideration and bringing and army to sale internationally for them is not cheap. They already listened to the Sisters of Battle fans - perhaps even encouraging them to ask on their social media for TK fans to air their support might help. Highlighting that SoB were likely biased in teh survey because of the relative larger fanbase for 40K and of the SoB lack of any confirmed news thus a worry that they were going to be retired whilst TK were already retired. 

[BrAiKo]

2 hours ago, themortalgod said:

When Dark Elves got their legends release, their points costs were removed from matched play. 

I don’t follow this.  Can someone confirm with a source where it says the compendium points are removed?

[themortalgod]

36 minutes ago, BrAiKo said:

I don’t follow this.  Can someone confirm with a source where it says the compendium points are removed?

The compendium dark elf supplement was removed from the website and replaced by the new legends rules set which does not contain matched play profiles. 

Thus the most recent ruleset does not have matched play profiles. Its totally fine to play with the old rules (if you have a copy and your opponent is cool with it) But as far as the standard of the most recent published rules being the official current rules, dark elves do not have pitched battle profiles.

[Marsh]

 

16 hours ago, themortalgod said:

The compendium dark elf supplement was removed from the website and replaced by the new legends rules set which does not contain matched play profiles. 

Thus the most recent ruleset does not have matched play profiles. Its totally fine to play with the old rules (if you have a copy and your opponent is cool with it) But as far as the standard of the most recent published rules being the official current rules, dark elves do not have pitched battle profiles.

The bolt thrower for example i believe is now gone completely from warscroll builder. I guess individuals/tournamnet organisers will take a view on 'old'points values but this gets especially tricky when combined with updated warscrolls from the legends book, which wont necessarily fit old points.

Lets say the screaming skull gets a lot stronger in legends, to use it with the old points value would be unfair, to use the old warscroll that matches the old points value would definitely not be 'current'.

The rerelease of models such as settra to me looks like the legends book might not be far away. With no rumours of a major new release, id assume that even if fans can convince gw to release theyll be removed 1st and probably for a while.

Theyll be back eventually, in some form. Genestealer cults in 40k waited many a year...

[themortalgod]

19 minutes ago, Marsh said:

 

The bolt thrower for example i believe is now gone completely from warscroll builder. I guess individuals/tournamnet organisers will take a view on 'old'points values but this gets especially tricky when combined with updated warscrolls from the legends book, which wont necessarily fit old points.

Lets say the screaming skull gets a lot stronger in legends, to use it with the old points value would be unfair, to use the old warscroll that matches the old points value would definitely not be 'current'.

The rerelease of models such as settra to me looks like the legends book might not be far away. With no rumours of a major new release, id assume that even if fans can convince gw to release theyll be removed 1st and probably for a while.

Theyll be back eventually, in some form. Genestealer cults in 40k waited many a year...

Well in regards to the SSC, arguably, it is utter garbage atm, so it may actually be balanced at its current pts cost.

Regardless, tho, even if they forget to remove pts costs from warscroll builder, it isnt the final voice. The final voice is the most recent published document which supercedes all previous ones.