AoS 2 - piling in & shutting down enemy models

[Fluttershy]

shutting down enemy units/models:

 

the new FAQ piling in seems broken to me:

 

"Q: When one of my models piles in, if it is equally close to two different enemy models, do I have to finish the move as close or closer to each of those models? For example, if my model is in base contact with two enemy models, does it have to finish a pile-in move in base contact with both those models?

 

A: Yes to both questions – if this is impossible the model cannot move."

 

really? it is possible to shutdown enemy models at 2,9" range, wow! get your 2-3" maces ready...

 

[EMMachine]

I think, this case will be extremely rare.

The point is, you can't move within 3" by normal move and if you charge, your chargemove must end in 0,5" of the unit (or the Charge will fail).

Only if you can make your pile in moves in a way you would end of in this situation.

Only in a case like Yhetees, who could pile in on units within 6" this could work (but after you are only stuck in combat within 3" they could simply make a charge move in there turn.

[BaldoBeardo]

10 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

I think, this case will be extremely rare.

The point is, you can't move within 3" by normal move and if you charge, your chargemove must end in 0,5" of the unit (or the Charge will fail).

Only if you can make your pile in moves in a way you would end of in this situation.

Only in a case like Yhetees, who could pile in on units within 6" this could work (but after you are only stuck in combat within 3" they could simply make a charge move in there turn.

I'd go even further - you have so little control over minis once the pile-in conditions take over that it'd be almost impossible to engineer this sort of precision.

[Vextol]

3 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

I'd go even further - you have so little control over minis once the pile-in conditions take over that it'd be almost impossible to engineer this sort of precision.

Well, there are many times a hero is between two units.  You simply charge the two units and during pile in (if your opponent isn't careful) you make sure the units you charged with pile in to create this situation. 

Not easy, but definitely not impossible. 

[Fluttershy]

easy achievable with 1 unit

use 2 models to lock him down, remove those 2 basecontacts as casulties first

 

[BaldoBeardo]

7 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

easy achievable with 1 unit

use 2 models to lock him down, remove those 2 basecontacts as casulties first

 

And only works if the unit has 3" melee weapon range or until the next combat phase.

[EMMachine]

27 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

easy achievable with 1 unit

use 2 models to lock him down, remove those 2 basecontacts as casulties first

 

And in the next enemy round the unit will suffer damage by magic, shooting or getting charged by something else, so further losses will break this.

Or the Hero will retreat, as long as he can get outside of 3".

Edit:

Actually the example is more interesting with a small unit, where every model has one in another direction as his next model. Because holding the coherency helps here.

[Trayanee]

1 hour ago, Fluttershy said:

easy achievable with 1 unit

use 2 models to lock him down, remove those 2 basecontacts as casulties first

 

How is this achievable? Unless in base contact its always possible to tell which of the two models is closer. The only thing you would achieve is making your opponent use a laser rangefinder to measure which side model is closer and pile-in towards it.

[Fluttershy]

18 minutes ago, Trayanee said:

How is this achievable?

use a measuring tape, or build yourself a template

use a distance of 2.01" if your enemy has an attacking range up to 3", use 2.01" if your enemy has a range up to 2" or use 1.01" if your enemy has a range up to 1"

1.01" and 2.01" should make it easier to deny retreating

[BaldoBeardo]

9 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

use a measuring tape, or build yourself a template

use a distance of 2.01" if your enemy has an attacking range up to 3", use 2.01" if your enemy has a range up to 2" or use 1.01" if your enemy has a range up to 1"

1.01" and 2.01" should make it easier to deny retreating

If your enemy has an attack range of 3, there's no way you can lock them in place and stop them hitting you.

[Fluttershy]

2 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

If your enemy has an attack range of 3, there's no way you can lock them in place and stop them hitting you.

right, but he still can't attack with his 1"/2" attacks but he is still locked in place, as long as the 2 models beside are alive

[BaldoBeardo]

1 minute ago, EMMachine said:

The point is, that you aren't forced to pile in, you are only forced to attack with all weapons that are in attack range.

And that's where the issue is.

'Fight' is pile-in and attack.

 You MUST fight.

You CAN pile-in.

You MUST attack.

You aren't allowed to "pass" if you have units who are eligible to fight.

If you don't pile-in and remain outside weapon range to prevent attacking then it is in effect a pass.

As I said, the RAW has a direct contradiction.

 

 

[Fluttershy]

remove the b2b as casulties first, next round enemy is locked and can only atack with 3" weapons

[Trayanee]

19 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

use a measuring tape, or build yourself a template

use a distance of 2.01" if your enemy has an attacking range up to 3", use 2.01" if your enemy has a range up to 2" or use 1.01" if your enemy has a range up to 1"

1.01" and 2.01" should make it easier to deny retreating

 

You simply can't prove two models are same distance from enemy model unless base to base. One si always closer if only by fractions of milimeter.

[BaldoBeardo]

2 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

remove the b2b as casulties first, next round enemy is locked and can only atack with 3" weapons

As long as your unit have 3" weapons. Otherwise he can just wait for you to have to pile-in again to attack.

[Vextol]

5 minutes ago, Trayanee said:

You simply can't prove two models are same distance from enemy model unless base to base. One si always closer if only by fractions of milimeter.

Intent rules in this game though.

The real question is why?  Why put this in the faq at all?  What "issue" were they addressing?

[Fluttershy]

1 minute ago, BaldoBeardo said:

As long as your unit have 3" weapons. Otherwise he can just wait for you to have to pile-in again to attack.

sure, but i don't have to pile in. in this scenario it's all about locking down an enemy unit/model with a cheap unit

[Fluttershy]

8 minutes ago, Trayanee said:

You simply can't prove two models are same distance from enemy model unless base to base. One si always closer if only by fractions of milimeter.

but you forgot the molecular density in base to base contact..

sry, f.e. if all models are in basecontact with your template you might be save to say they have the same distance

 

[EMMachine]

Regardless of the result, if the strategy is based on that it will be a very academic and unfun game.

[stato]

15 minutes ago, Trayanee said:

You simply can't prove two models are same distance from enemy model unless base to base. One si always closer if only by fractions of milimeter.

Prove models are in base to base when someone walking past has bumped the table or sticking out arms and weapons keep getting tangled or models are on terrain making them wonky, what you do is you agree with your opponent what is and isnt as you move them in, same as measuring anything, same rule can apply here.

Like has been said, its very situational, incredibly rare you will pull it off and actually have it stick.  The point is it can be done though and can have benefits even if only through one round of combat.  Its a tactic, to be used as and when you think you want to try and pull it off.

[this isnt actually a new situation as you had to pile into the nearest model previously which people often took to be the current ruling from the FAQ, all models count as nearest if equidistant, its just confirmed in the FAW now hence why we discuss it]

 

[BaldoBeardo]

Just now, Fluttershy said:

sure, but i don't have to pile in. in this scenario it's all about locking down an enemy unit/model with a cheap unit

If you're within 3", you must fight.

Agree the RAW is patchy and an FAQ is needed because you have two directly contradicting statements - but choosing not to pile-in and preventing your models from attacking is effectively choosing to pass, which you definitely aren't allowed to do.

[EMMachine]

2 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

but choosing not to pile-in and preventing your models from attacking is effectively choosing to pass, which you definitely aren't allowed to do

The point is, that you aren't forced to pile in, you are only forced to attack with all weapons that are in attack range.