Soup Dragon Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 The Forgeworld points for Matched Play from Generals Handbook are out on the Forgeworld website: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/aos_warscrolls/aos_matched_play_points.pdf While Forgeworld are to be commended on getting the points out in time, that's where my praise ends. Bearing in mind that apart from the Mourngul, I haven't seen a flood of Forgeworld models appearing on the tournament scene, and most recent tournaments have used SCGT points, then Forgeworld models are probably not undercosted in SCGT. So why did Forgeworld feel the need to DOUBLE the points for some models and increase many by 25% or more. Sure there are some that have come down in cost, but not many. The table below shows some comparisons: If Forgeworld want to sell models, then surely they would point them at a competitive level. Maybe I've got it wrong and they don't like selling stuff...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 It is a bit weird. I think SCGT was maybe 10% too cheap for some of the key ones. Also in SCGT monsters can always capture in all 6 battleplans. In GH, they often will count as one model, so outscored by two zombros - so they should be cheaper relatively speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Interesting analysis @Soup Dragon - Looks like my Basilisk will remain in the display cabinet!! Is nice to see the Saurian get its reduction though tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Quote Is nice to see the Saurian get its reduction though tbh. True - ditto the Chaos War Mammoth which is finally useable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Quote If Forgeworld want to sell models, then surely they would point them at a competitive level. Maybe I've got it wrong and they don't like selling stuff...... Stop. You're going way over the top. You've put a rant with no analysis behind it. One model doubled in points and there was no way it was worth 160 when it averages 5.6 mortal wounds per shooting phase. Additionally you're making a comparison to an estimated conversion of SCGT to GW points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 4 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said: Interesting analysis @Soup Dragon - Looks like my Basilisk will remain in the display cabinet!! Is nice to see the Saurian get its reduction though tbh. Agree that Saurian is better costed. Also Warmammoth has come down in cost too for Chaos, which it needed. @Nico Totally agree that under SCGT some were a bit cheap, but now with the capture rules they are much less effective. Just seems crazy to increase the costs. Many Forgeworld models are so lovely to see on the table, and sadly we are less likely to see them now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Quote Stop. You're going way over the top. You've put a rant with no analysis behind it. One model doubled in points and there was no way it was worth 160 when it averages 5.6 mortal wounds per shooting phase. 8 PCs/160 was too cheap, but 320 is way too much for something so squishy against archers - 5+ save monsters is the curse of the Chaos Grand Alliance. Basilisk would be a decent sideboard option against Khorne and Ironjawz only. It's not quasi Arkhan the Black level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 3 minutes ago, daedalus81 said: Stop. You're going way over the top. You've put a rant with no analysis behind it. One model doubled in points and there was no way it was worth 160 when it averages 5.6 mortal wounds per shooting phase. Additionally you're making a comparison to an estimated conversion of SCGT to GW points. Sorry if seemed like a rant, was meant to be a small poke with a stick with a bit of sarcasm on it. But seriously, apart from Dread Saurians and Warpfire dragons, do you feel we are likely to see more Monstrous Arcanum models on the table at events or fewer with these points costs? If you feel we will see an increase in their numbers, then I'd be very interested in the reasoning behind it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Just now, Nico said: 8 PCs/160 was too cheap, but 320 is way too much for something so squishy against archers - 5+ save monsters is the curse of the Chaos Grand Alliance. Basilisk would be a decent sideboard option against Khorne and Ironjawz only. It's not quasi Arkhan the Black level. Sylvaneth? Not everything in their army is an archer. You have a 12" move and it doesn't need to be on the front line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Quote Many Forgeworld models are so lovely to see on the table, and sadly we are less likely to see them now. You'll see mine at Rain of Stars. I think they are very easy to overestimate, since they are very difficult to buff without the necessary keywords. A mildly buffed block of 20 Stormvermin/Temple Guard/Phoenix Guard/Executioners etc. will chop through them just like they will to Archaon, Stardrakes etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Soup Dragon said: Sorry if seemed like a rant, was meant to be a small poke with a stick with a bit of sarcasm on it. But seriously, apart from Dread Saurians and Warpfire dragons, do you feel we are likely to see more Monstrous Arcanum models on the table at events or fewer with these points costs? If you feel we will see an increase in their numbers, then I'd be very interested in the reasoning behind it I was being forceful, but I'm not mad at you. Sorry if it came across that way. Perception and community mindset are going to play a large roll on what see the table. If at every turn someone building a list is told that said unit just isn't worth it then certainly it will take a down turn. Points are relatively new to the rest of the world so SCGT is the only place we would likely have seen FW in competition. It's going to take time for other areas to buy and use these models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Quote Sylvaneth? Not everything in their army is an archer. Maybe - but you may have noticed a few people tweeting about their 24 inch range Kurnoth Hunters.... Even I'm buying 12 to use as Ushabti potentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 1 minute ago, daedalus81 said: I was being forceful, but I'm not mad at you. Sorry if it came across that way. Perception and community mindset are going to play a large roll on what see the table. If at every turn someone building a list is told that said unit just isn't worth it then certainly it will take a down turn. Points are relatively new to the rest of the world so SCGT is the only place we would likely have seen FW in competition. It's going to take time for other areas to buy and use these models. Cool, no Probs Daedalus. Having taken and used Troll Hag, Incarnate of Fire, and Incarnate of Beasts to 2 tournaments (AGOM and Northern Invasion) which used SCGT points, I can assure you they were slightly (maybe 10%-20%) overcosted and were there for pure fluff reasons. Even with the new points costs I am determined to gradually build, paint and take every Destruction model from Forge World to an Event (I have most of them built but not painted already). But with the new points it makes it a bit of a dismal prospect for some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, Nico said: You'll see mine at Rain of Stars. I think they are very easy to overestimate, since they are very difficult to buff without the necessary keywords. A mildly buffed block of 20 Stormvermin/Temple Guard/Phoenix Guard/Executioners etc. will chop through them just like they will to Archaon, Stardrakes etc.. A fair point, but I think it comes down to the purpose it will fill. A basilisk is a quint essential mage killer - move up, shoot. A typical 5 wound model needs to be hit 3 times only to be killed. And in that manner those hordes become less powerful. A rogue idol very capably puts out 12-15 wounds on even the more heavily armored units - that is an entire unit of chosen. It is no joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Quote A rogue idol very capably puts out 12-15 wounds on even the more heavily armored units - that is an entire unit of chosen. It is no joke. I'd say that one is priced about right - maybe 440 would be better - it's a tougher (but much slower) Necrosphinx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 4 minutes ago, daedalus81 said: A rogue idol very capably puts out 12-15 wounds on even the more heavily armored units - that is an entire unit of chosen. It is no joke. This is more like it - comparing damage-output/saves/buffs/wounds against multiple units that already have points from GW. In the case above, compare it to 6 Ironguts - 440 points, 24 wounds, 4+save, average 19 damage per round. Idol of Gork was cheap under SCGT, but 480 points under Forgeworld? Jusy a bit expensive for a single model (but then I have one ready to paint, so am slightly biased). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, Nico said: I'd say that one is priced about right - maybe 440 would be better - it's a tougher (but much slower) Necrosphinx. We're on the same wavelength! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, Soup Dragon said: This is more like it - comparing damage-output/saves/buffs/wounds against multiple units that already have points from GW. In the case above, compare it to 6 Ironguts - 440 points, 24 wounds, 4+save, average 19 damage per round. Idol of Gork was cheap under SCGT, but 480 points under Forgeworld? Jusy a bit expensive for a single model (but then I have one ready to paint, so am slightly biased). You're missing some major factors. If the iron guts go first then they do 8 wounds (remember wounds get halved). The idol, if it goes first pulls off 3 of them (12 wounds). Not the same effectiveness. And the ironguts have a 1 in 3 chance for them to lose another full four wounds to bravery. The idol will not test on that. And to top it off it tosses out random mortal wounds, has a respectable death throe, allows wizards to reroll casting rolls of 1, and a 16" +1 to bravery. What about that is not worth 40 points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 On the HeelanHammer podcast they said that one piece of feedback they gave was that draft points for monsters were too high. Especially with the objective rules. So GW did review them prior to final version. I wonder if that feedback got through to FW. 300 for the Colossal Squig. Going to see how I can use him more effciently. Definitely an alpha strike model with its 5+ save. One positive - Fimir are much more sensibly price! But now to fit them in somewhere with all these alligence rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 3 minutes ago, daedalus81 said: You're missing some major factors. If the iron guts go first then they do 8 wounds (remember wounds get halved). The idol, if it goes first pulls off 3 of them (12 wounds). Not the same effectiveness. And the ironguts have a 1 in 3 chance for them to lose another full four wounds to bravery. The idol will not test on that. And to top it off it tosses out random mortal wounds, has a respectable death throe, allows wizards to reroll casting rolls of 1, and a 16" +1 to bravery. What about that is not worth 40 points? Completely agree, it's very difficult to compare Units too closely, it's like scoring apples against pears (well OK, not very much like that, but you get the point). Each unit has unique pluses and minuses (Ironguts are better at scoring than single model - and in the end it's all about the scenario, not just killing each other). My feeling would be to do like Mo Comp and SGT comp - come up with a ball park figure (and for Idols of Gork, that may be 480) but then be able to be adjust the points with experience. We all know of units that look great on paper and then underperform on the table. So if there was some assurance from Forgeworld that the points will change with experience, then that would be very........reassuring. But to have them seemingly set in stone at such a different level from what has already been tried on a limited scale, is very unsettling. With luck there will be adjustments and then we'll see more Forgeworld models on the table, which is what most of us would want - not overpowered filth, but a reasonable choice with uses and weaknesses like every other unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Yea, I think we all want to strive for that proper balance and have everything feel useful. And I think we're most of the way there. The only way we'll get FW and GW to make changes is to be vocal and rigorous in our theories. We have their ear right now for certain. My sense of something under-performing on the table has a lot to do with perception and little on data collection. 'Highly random' models like the idol could roll three 1s for its attacks - it happens - and that might put someone off the model for a long time. Similarly is can roll a considerable number of attacks (and subsequently fluff all of them). It's important to separate that emotional response to such things. After all - "the best laid plans are the first casualties in war" and it's up to us to be able to adapt and respond to such events and to hope that they affect our opponent in equal measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 In regards to models on the table, I'd say allegiance bonuses/rules will be getting in the way more than the point values. Adding a FW monster in will/will probably stop you getting your specific alliegence bonuses as more battletomes come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 That could be an interesting problem solved by the supposed allegiances tome. There are current allegiance abilities that can be pretty damning - +1 to hit on the idol or basilisk no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James McPherson Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 As a Tamurkhan & Legion of Azgorh guy, forgetting monsters for a moment (which seem to be the flavor of the month recently!) I am super stoked they got us points out in time for the GH, and most of the points seem pretty in line with other stuff so very happy, but it leaves a question, will we see separate allegiance traits/spells/artifacts for these factions ? A little gutted not to get them now, but happy to wait until September when the updates happen for the other races as well. I think we are getting some more releases at AOS open day as well , so super stoked to see what that will be. Exciting times for Chaos Dwarf generals to have a fully legal playable army again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APH Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Did no one else notice the Fimir Dirach Balefiend, from the Storm of Magic book? Looks like my Fimir army will actually be able to stand on its own without conscripting Battleline troops from another race. Now I just have to wait for the actual Warscroll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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