jamierk Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I keep seeing the same theme come up in list writing threads. People struggle to see the utility of battle line units, soft hitting units, faster units in favour of the high damage and high save units which are generally higher points cost. It's just my experience but I think this is because of too much theory hammer and not enough play time. I have seen plenty of games where the cheap units have been game changing just by being able to block charges, capture objectives and force large number of saves. The best change AoS brought to my games is it made everything useful. Maybe not 100% reliable but useful. Especially considering the bonuses available to core troops in unit sizes of 20 and 30. When I write my current lists, I am for a balance of some fast, hard hitting units that can alpha strike if needed, or just draw off the enemy elites. Then some speed for redeployment and redirection, and some cheap bodies in places where you can just tie up the opponent. We are only playing 5 turn games and just limiting the movement of the opponent, stopping long charges etc is useful. Just my 2c but I'd love to have a discussion about whether chaff and battle line units can succeed in optimised lists. An example I'm working on at the moment is using skaven clan rats to protect multiple warp fire throwers (who are amazeballs for their points but only shoot 8") for dealing with bit character heavy armies. Thoughts? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 There hasn't been enough tournaments and exploration of scenarios to clearly determine the value of some units. It's easy and natural to take the coolest and most powerful units - points or otherwise. Let's take chaos warhounds for example. I totally blew them off while I relearned to use my army again. Now, taking a second look is making me reconsider. It's easy to say they are ****** -- 80 points for 8 on 6+ save and bravery 4. Why wouldn't I just get marauders instead who can get a 5+ save for 60 points? There is a need for speed. Most of the scenarios so far have relied on controlling objectives with the most models. What better way to do this with a unit that can bust out 16" in a turn? A last moment objective grab. They're decent attackers. If you can get them around the side (something you can do by starting them off the far end and running in) then you can get at weaker units (mages /artillery/archers) behind the lines. Cheap units can block. Far too often people forget inspiring presence is available. A cheap unit in a column can limit attacks back and stick a unit in place for a good while when they don't have to take bravery tests. Either the enemy dedicates ranged shooting to deal with them - bonus - or they have free reign of the table. Ignore them at your peril. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 There was also a thread voicing concerns about judicators deep striking on a hero and crippling them. Chaff is a way to keep that bubble of safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 My very competitive list is about 50% battle line and it's yet to lose. Though it did tie once due to my own tactical error, and a good move by my opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Quote An example I'm working on at the moment is using skaven clan rats to protect multiple warp fire throwers (who are amazeballs for their points but only shoot 8") for dealing with bit character heavy armies. The problem with this is the enemy shooting off the teams - everyone knows how lethal they are. It would be great against Ironjawz or Khorne. There is a Verminus Clawpack formation that makes it harder to snipe off the weapons teams. Quote My very competitive list is about 50% battle line and it's yet to lose. Though it did tie once due to my own tactical error, and a good move by my opponent. What are these battleline units? There are plenty of good ones - Ghouls, Skeleton Chariots, Judicators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamierk Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 Yeah a good competitive list will cover off those single units, but remember having 3-4 teams means you need to shoot 3-4 times as excess wounds on one team do not flow over. Again it's about using your chaff to prevent the ranged attackers from getting too many shots on them, keeping them outside of range etc Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 12 hours ago, Nico said: The problem with this is the enemy shooting off the teams - everyone knows how lethal they are. It would be great against Ironjawz or Khorne. There is a Verminus Clawpack formation that makes it harder to snipe off the weapons teams. What are these battleline units? There are plenty of good ones - Ghouls, Skeleton Chariots, Judicators. My zombie list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperHappyTime Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 On 7/21/2016 at 6:10 PM, jamierk said: Thoughts? Unless you've seen 1000+ games where such instances are recorded and can back up the claims with data, I'm not going to believe a case or counter-case of any theory. I would believe those who pose these exercises would personally test or mathammer said theories, but they may not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamierk Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 Unless you've seen 1000+ games where such instances are recorded and can back up the claims with data, I'm not going to believe a case or counter-case of any theory. I would believe those who pose these exercises would personally test or mathammer said theories, but they may not. Really? 1000+ games for me to share my experience and have a chat on a forum? Tough crowd... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 You can split a unit's shooting between multiple weapon teams, so while there will be wasted shots, you can still shred them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 7 hours ago, Nico said: You can split a unit's shooting between multiple weapon teams, so while there will be wasted shots, you can still shred them. Yep because melee and ranged attacks use the same rules for target selection and damage allocation. This is important for shoot horde units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCharisma Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 On 22/07/2016 at 9:10 AM, jamierk said: I keep seeing the same theme come up in list writing threads. People struggle to see the utility of battle line units, soft hitting units, faster units in favour of the high damage and high save units which are generally higher points cost. It's just my experience but I think this is because of too much theory hammer and not enough play time. I have seen plenty of games where the cheap units have been game changing just by being able to block charges, capture objectives and force large number of saves. The best change AoS brought to my games is it made everything useful. Maybe not 100% reliable but useful. Especially considering the bonuses available to core troops in unit sizes of 20 and 30. When I write my current lists, I am for a balance of some fast, hard hitting units that can alpha strike if needed, or just draw off the enemy elites. Then some speed for redeployment and redirection, and some cheap bodies in places where you can just tie up the opponent. We are only playing 5 turn games and just limiting the movement of the opponent, stopping long charges etc is useful. Just my 2c but I'd love to have a discussion about whether chaff and battle line units can succeed in optimised lists. An example I'm working on at the moment is using skaven clan rats to protect multiple warp fire throwers (who are amazeballs for their points but only shoot 8") for dealing with bit character heavy armies. Thoughts? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I'm potentially struggling with too much core/battle line and not enough high point units, especially against Death armies who take minimal battleline by combining zombies in turn one to create a mega unit...and the rest of their points going into characters and special units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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